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My friend may not be ESFJ - possibly type 8

HongDou

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So I have this friend who's been neighbors with my family friends for the past 7 years, and probably two years ago I had her take the MBTI/Enneagram tests. She got ESFJ 1w2 sx/so which was a really unique typing but it made enough sense for me to see it. later i laid out the 1 description for her but she said it didn't sound like her at all - she was particularly averse to the word "perfect" which probably wasn't the best word to use. But she came to visit this summer and I started wondering whether she may be an 1 or not from the conversations we had (and consequently, probably not ESFJ either).

Here are some of her stand-out qualities:

- once she makes a plan she's going to make sure it happens, she hates when people flake out or get in the way
- personable, friendly, energetic, big presence (I'm 100% sure she's an extrovert and she knows it too)
- she's perfectly fine with instigating fights, if someone hits her she'll with hitting back twice as hard even if she knows it's petty
- likes relationship stability, she's been with her boyfriend for 3 years and if they ever broke up she says she still would rather be with one stable person rather than trying out a variety of people
- really driven, wants to make something of herself since her parents were really strict with her about money
- can't stand laziness or sensitivity in other people, hates when people need their own special accommodations
- hates when people cut or get cut slack
- loves to try new things - food, outdoor activities, games, etc
- enjoys engaging her childlike side, playing imaginary or video games or hide & seek and such
- doesn't like talking about social issues with others when she knows she'll disagree with them (she's openly stated she likes things like stereotypes), she'd rather people just let her be rather than try to persuade her to believe something else because she knows she'll get mad otherwise
- she'd rather "let love happen" rather than search for it
- she likes to do nice gestures for others, she cooked for my family when she was staying with us and she likes to make arts & crafts for her loved ones, she and her boyfriend send long love letter texts to each other every night before bed
- has a physically abusive relationship with her father but does NOT want other people getting involved, she punched her now ex-friend in the face for calling the police on her parents after she vented to her about them
- likes partying and going crazy with others (she enjoys ding-dong-ditching and TPing others houses and other kinds of button pushing)
- mildly concerned about facebook likes
- as one of my family friends once said "she SCREAMS HER PROBLEMS TO THE HEAVENS!"
- she said she's more extroverted but doesn't really care for the limelight, while her boyfriend is socially introverted but LOVES attention
- at the end of her senior year she went up to everyone she hated and told them why they were awful

hmm that's all i can think of right now :thinking: [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] i'd appreciate your thoughts especially since if she's a possible 8 she's probably on the ESTx axis
 

EJCC

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TBH she sounds more cp6w7 than 8, to me. Mostly because of this:

- doesn't like talking about social issues with others when she knows she'll disagree with them (she's openly stated she likes things like stereotypes), she'd rather people just let her be rather than try to persuade her to believe something else because she knows she'll get mad otherwise

I'm not sure if I can imagine an 8 using that logic ("I won't talk to this person about a thing I care about, because I don't want to get mad"). I think one of my roommates is an 8, and her logic is usually "If this person needs to feel my rage, then they will feel it". Not that she can't/won't hold her anger in, sometimes, but that she has absolutely NO shame about her anger.

I could probably(?) see her being an 8-fix, but not core 8. Also 3-fix and sp-last. No idea about MBTI, except that she seems VERY extroverted.
 

HongDou

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TBH she sounds more cp6w7 than 8, to me. Mostly because of this:

I'm not sure if I can imagine an 8 using that logic ("I won't talk to this person about a thing I care about, because I don't want to get mad").

Oooh, interesting! I never considered cp6w7 before, but now that you brought it up I could totally see it. I'll have to think about it more. But what you said is true, because the reason she subdues that anger in the first place is she doesn't want it to undermine her relationships. I actually linked her the 8 profile before this thread she said it sounded right but then probably a lot of cp6w7s relate to 8 in some way. I definitely think though she has 8 influence even if it's just a fix although it can be hard to tell with a cp6. It's like having a heavy wing in a different triad and trying to figure out whether it's your fix or just your wing type. :thinking:

I think one of my roommates is an 8, and her logic is usually "If this person needs to feel my rage, then they will feel it". Not that she can't/won't hold her anger in, sometimes, but that she has absolutely NO shame about her anger.

Hmm, but this is also pretty true for her too. Among our friends we all openly define her as the angriest one most in touch with her rage and she wears it like a badge haha. I don't know if she is aware of when others need to feel her rage but she has no problem making it known to them. One time when our INFJ friend (self identifies as 2w3 but it seems off to me) was on his way to clean the neighbors' pool she decided it'd be a fun prank to hide in a bush and pop out to scare him. When it happened he jumped and took a step back, and for the record he has a history of being a little oversensitive in the moment, then got angry at her and decided to go up to her and decided to smack her arm or something. When he stormed off she followed him saying it was a joke and she was sorry, but when he slammed the door on her fingers (she's the pitcher for her softball team) that's when she let the anger out. She got upset and yelled at him saying that it was a joke and he didn't have any common sense doing what he did, and when he retorted that he had more common sense than she did she check-punched him in the face.

Possibly another point for 6w7, but when we were talking this summer she told me she started letting her rage loose back in middle school in her math class. A group of kids would make comments about how she was stupid because she didn't know the stuff they did, and eventually towards the end of the year she stood up and started yelling at them all for a solid 30 minutes or something. Apparently the teacher and the rest of the class had to leave the room or something lol. She told me then that's when she started to love flexing her anger muscles and putting people in their place.

Also 3-fix and sp-last.

What pointed you to 3-fix? I could see her on the 2/3 axis.

No idea about MBTI, except that she seems VERY extroverted.

With MBTI I'm pretty sure she's ESxx at the very least. Sometimes I think she could be Se-oriented but she's also so organized and bent on planning and control and stuff she seems like a clear-cut J going by the plain 4 letter theory. Maybe she actually is ESFJ huh? A counterphobic 6w7 ESFJ sounds very interesting but hey she's interesting as a person so it might fit.
 

HongDou

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[MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION] (ESFJ) or [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] (ExFJ and gut triad) if you guys could maybe offer some insight that'd be great. :)

[MENTION=24824]Kas[/MENTION] and [MENTION=25217]Kyubey[/MENTION] too just because hehe.
 

Kyubey

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Perhaps she could be an ESFP who's really in touch with her tertiary Te? Some of the points sounded really Se and Fi. I don't normally associate a lot of "J" with ESFP but cp6w7 sounds slightly more ESFP to me. She doesn't seem very ESTP in the points mentioned. Perhaps the anger explosions are Te with some Se impulse?
Assuming she's around 20 she could be more in touch with her Te at this point in her life which is why she might give off an 8 or TJ feel.
Also some Fi with going up to people and telling them why they were awful.
My guess is ESFP but I could definitely see ESxJ as well.
For enneagram, I thought of 7w6 rather than 6w7. I just felt more 7 than 6... :unsure:

For comparisons she reminds me a lot of an ENTJ friend of mine but you did mention you were sure she was an ESxx type.
I have an ESFJ friend who would never go up to people and tell them why she hated them or punch a friend for calling the police on her dad unless a lot of other people were doing it. She's really concerned on how she looks to others and doesn't go on anger outbursts in public but mainly complains about it later with several of her close friends. Not that she doesn't have any independence whatsoever, she is just heavily influenced by those around her. While I noticed Fe users tend to have well developed Fi and vice versa, I think she prefers Fi>Fe. I also couldn't find many Si examples.

I'll try to find more examples later but that's the only one coming to mind right now. :(

Edit: Ahhh never mind she could definitely be an ESTP as well.
 

Kas

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I could actually see the 1, but in a tritype and not as a core. Maybe not perfectionist but...
once she makes a plan she's going to make sure it happens, she hates when people flake out or get in the way
it sounds pretty 1 ;) maybe a bit 3

I agree that 6w7 sounds likely. 6w7 can appear similar to 8s as you wrote- straight-forward and strong. Part of this descriptons sounds like a more extroverted and social version of my ESTJ friend who is 613 and I think they could have same tritype. So I think your friend may be a 613 or 631 (rather the second). I can see some 2 behaviour but maybe it's 2 as a wing...

Oh and if it's about MBTI I think ESFJ is most likely. She sounds like J type and Fe user.
 

burymecloser

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TBH she sounds more cp6w7 than 8, to me
I hadn't thought of that, but it makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps she could be an ESFP who's really in touch with her tertiary Te? Some of the points sounded really Se and Fi.
+1, this was my thinking, too. Your friend doesn't sound like a Fe-dom.

Oh and if it's about MBTI I think ESFJ is most likely. She sounds like J type and Fe user.
???
She sounds very Fi/Te to me. Fe-doms care what others think, agonize over offending people, and are seldom rude to anyone but their closest acquaintances and worst enemies.

- she's perfectly fine with instigating fights, if someone hits her she'll with hitting back twice as hard even if she knows it's petty
- can't stand laziness or sensitivity in other people, hates when people need their own special accommodations
- hates when people cut or get cut slack
- doesn't like talking about social issues with others when she knows she'll disagree with them (she's openly stated she likes things like stereotypes), she'd rather people just let her be rather than try to persuade her to believe something else because she knows she'll get mad otherwise
- as one of my family friends once said "she SCREAMS HER PROBLEMS TO THE HEAVENS!"
- at the end of her senior year she went up to everyone she hated and told them why they were awful
That seems very Fi to me, I think your friend is an ESFP.
 

senza tema

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This description sounds like [MENTION=21890]Codex[/MENTION] to me ... ESTJ, unsure about enneatype.

Actually, could apply to my mom too, who is an ESTJ 2w1.
 

á´…eparted

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ESFJ sounds accurate. Insofar as I don't see any reasons to disagree with that assessment.

She is not an 8, there's just no way. I see her as either a 3w4, or a 6w7. I'm not entirely sure which and based off this I don't think I could sort it out. Though I lean to 6w7 a bit more since she doesn't seem to thrive or need much attention in the way 3's do. Further, I don't get much of an image conscious vibe from what you wrote.
 

á´…eparted

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She sounds very Fi/Te to me. Fe-doms care what others think, agonize over offending people, and are seldom rude to anyone but their closest acquaintances and worst enemies.

This is an Fe stereotype. I can see her as an Fe dom. Te is possible, but less likely based off what I read.

Fe doms can be VERY rude, trust me. I am one.
 

small.wonder

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I agree with [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] that the behavior you describe sounds way more cp 6 than 8. The other possibility is of healthy 1 (integrating to 7), or unhealthy 7 (disintegrating to 1). This OP is full of 1, 6 and 7. That's for sure. ;)

I think a good place to start is deciding whether she has a 1 or 6 influence (since they are very similar). Which do you think she sounds more like based on the Enneagram Institute mis-identifications article on the two types?:

Both are among the compliant types of the Enneagram. As noted in Personality Types (434-436), Ones are compliant to the demands of their superegos and their ideals, while Sixes are compliant to the demands of their superegos and other people, especially perceived allies or authority figures. We say that Ones have an “Inner Critic” in their heads, while Sixes have an “Inner Committee.” What these two types have in common is the tendency to feel guilty when they do something contrary either to their ideals (Ones) or to the commitments to allies, beliefs, and authorities they have made (Sixes). Guilt feelings owing to strong consciences and the tendency to strike out either at themselves or at others (or both) are the main points of similarity between them. While Sixes may rarely mistake themselves for Ones or Ones misidentify themselves as Sixes, other people may be confused by some superficial similarities between them. (And, in fact, a Six with a Five-wing will more likely be confused with a One than a Six with a Seven-wing because of the seriousness and intensity that the Five-wing brings to the Six’s overall personality.)

These two types are easy to distinguish, however, by noting the overall emotional tone of each type. Average Sixes are anxious, indecisive, ambivalent, and, above all, reactive. They find it difficult to relate to others with self-confidence as equals, tending either to become too dutiful and dependent or to go to the opposite extreme and become rebellious and defiant. Sometimes they get stuck in the middle and become ambivalent, indecisive, and vacillating.

These traits are almost completely absent in average Ones. Their overall emotional tone is one of self-controlled, impersonal efficiency, orderliness and propriety. Ones are emphatically not indecisive: they know their own minds and have opinions about everything, which they are more than willing to express to others. Ones are certain, and trying to convince others that they know the optimal way to do things. Sixes are uncertain, and rely on reassurance, back-up, familiar procedure, or the sanction of previously tested ideas and philosophies to help them come to decisions.

Average Ones are often so tightly self-controlled that they are able to keep their feelings at bay. They are frequently unaware of the degree of their tensions. Average Sixes struggle with more volatile feelings and have difficulty putting them aside–although they seldom express their feelings to others. Sixes carry considerable anxious tension and are more aware of it. Righteous anger, irritation, and moral indignation are the principal negative emotions in Ones, whereas fearfulness, suspicion, and anxiety are the principal negative feelings in Sixes. Moreover, while lower functioning Ones can be sarcastic and verbally abusive, they almost never let themselves get out of control and are seldom physically violent, whereas low functioning Sixes can more easily lose their tempers, sometimes erupting into hysterical reactions or even physical violence.

When it does arise, the confusion seems to stem from both types’ overactive superegos. Both are “should” and “must” people: both feel obligated to take care of all duties before relaxing or attending to their own needs. Further down the Levels, both types exhibit a legalistic streak: Sixes at Level 6 are The Authoritarian Rebel and Ones at the same Level are The Judgmental Perfectionist. When their superegos are on more severe, both types are quite capable of telling others what to do, although in different ways and for different reasons. Ones moralize and scold, lecturing others in the name of an ideal about whatever issues are of concern to them. (“Do you have any idea how wasteful it is to use an air conditioner?”) Ones do not hesitate to order others around, telling them what they should be doing so to improve themselves or to be more effective.

Sixes can also give orders, not because of rigid inner standards, but because they are afraid of what they see as the erratic, irresponsible conduct of others potentially disrupting the security and stability they are trying to maintain. They are angered and threatened by others “breaking the rules” and becoming more unpredictable. Sixes identify with certain beliefs or authority figures and internalize the values that they have learned from these sources of guidance. Once they have identified with what they have taken to be trustworthy sources of information about the world, Sixes can be aggressive toward anyone who does not accept the same values as they do. This is especially true when Sixes are more insecure–the more anxious they are, the more they want to cling to whatever positions or allegiances they still believe in. The indifference of others to their beliefs may infuriate Sixes as much as outright rejection of them does. Compare the personalities of George Bush (a Six) and Al Gore (a One), Meryl Streep (a One) and Meg Ryan (a Six) for examples of the similarities and differences of these two types.

She could however, be a 7w6 (or 6w7) that is just disintegrating to 1 and 3-- the important thing is to determine which nuances are only under stress (unhealth) and which are more consistent. A 7 for instance (as I'm sure you well know :D) would always be variety seeking, restless and energetic; any judgemental, absolutist, bully/clique-ish tendencies fuled by anger would be under stress/unhealthy disintegration to 1.

The opposite would be true for a core 1, being rooted in justice-based thinking by default, and only feeling free to have fun and seek variety when healthy and integrating to 7.

Regarding your friend specifically, you gave a really good example that might give some insight-- the abusive situation she's in with her Dad. That's a prime example of stress. Her reaction to that is don't tell anyone, I can handle this myself! That to me says evasion of pain (7), loyalty to a fault (6) and getting really angry (1) under stress. Perhaps she even feels like no one should know she doesn't have it "all together"-- another hint that she might be disintegrating towards 1.

So much of what you said also says 7 to me. :) My bet is that you have a kindred spirit on your hands that may just be a little unhealthy in this season of life.
 

HongDou

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Assuming she's around 20 she could be more in touch with her Te at this point in her life which is why she might give off an 8 or TJ feel.

Mm, she just graduated high school - she's 18.

This description sounds like [MENTION=21890]Codex[/MENTION] to me ... ESTJ, unsure about enneatype.

Actually, could apply to my mom too, who is an ESTJ 2w1.

Mm, so you're thinking ESTJ? O:

ESFJ sounds accurate. Insofar as I don't see any reasons to disagree with that assessment.

It's hard when ESFJs can present themselves in a plethora of ways. She's a combination of spunky, quicktempered, loyal, friendly, etc. Could all be a more tightly-wound ESFJ.

She is not an 8, there's just no way. I see her as either a 3w4, or a 6w7. I'm not entirely sure which and based off this I don't think I could sort it out. Though I lean to 6w7 a bit more since she doesn't seem to thrive or need much attention in the way 3's do. Further, I don't get much of an image conscious vibe from what you wrote.

I get 6w7, but why 3w4? I feel like stereotypical 4 behavior and 4 desires are actually everything she actively complains about. I see a lot more 2 influence in her between 2 and 4.
[MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION]

She could however, be a 7w6 (or 6w7) that is just disintegrating to 1 and 3-- the important thing is to determine which nuances are only under stress (unhealth) and which are more consistent. A 7 for instance (as I'm sure you well know :D) would always be variety seeking, restless and energetic; any judgemental, absolutist, bully/clique-ish tendencies fuled by anger would be under stress/unhealthy disintegration to 1.

mmm, well this doesn't really sound like her much. She's judgmental when people either challenge her or are in a bad situation she thinks they could easily get out of. She's not judgmental in the sense that she'll think what you're wearing is weird or your group of friends are inherently X quality or something. The absolutist thing actually I can kind of see because she automatically assumes she's always right. She's told her boyfriend that a lot of his friends are assholes at different times - each time a new friend. She'll lay it out to him, he won't say anything for a while, and then he'll reply and be like "yeah" and she'll laugh it off and say she's always right (and during the time he's silent she knows she is too).

The opposite would be true for a core 1, being rooted in justice-based thinking by default, and only feeling free to have fun and seek variety when healthy and integrating to 7.

It's weird because I feel like she's a mix of both. She's very ethical and concerned about maintaining her values, but also eager to have fun at a moment's notice.

Her reaction to that is don't tell anyone, I can handle this myself! That to me says evasion of pain (7), loyalty to a fault (6) and getting really angry (1) under stress. Perhaps she even feels like no one should know she doesn't have it "all together"-- another hint that she might be disintegrating towards 1.

The don't tell anyone part I would say is incorrect, because like my list says she's very open about all the drama that's going down in her life and all of her problems. But she is determined to handle all these things herself in a bunch of different ways. She won't accept money from her mom anymore because she knows her mom will turn that against her as a guilting tool. The having it all together part is probably true to and she comes off stronger than she probably feels inside but I have no way of knowing since I'm not her. Her dad just recently beat her in front of her boyfriend when she got home from visiting me, and she messaged me saying "it's so disappointing. It's degrading to have that done to you."

So much of what you said also says 7 to me. :) My bet is that you have a kindred spirit on your hands that may just be a little unhealthy in this season of life.

I could actually definitely see 7. O: Thanks for the new suggestion!

With the misidentification description you linked, it's weird because she sounds like neither at times. It could be the 6 description covers more the phobic side, because to me she doesn't seem anxious at all and I don't even think she's internally anxious. She has the reactive side, but also the rigidity and orderliness of a 1. She's highly emotional though and not nearly as self-controlled.

---

I feel like I could also be painting her in an unfair light. I could be overemphasizing her aggressive and critical side and not stressing enough how outgoing, friendly, and energetic she also usually is.

Also let me clarify the point about not wanting to talk about values. Our family friends have one kid who's bisexual and one person who's agender. Being the little gay liberal SJW that I am, you can obviously tell how I really don't care. But my friend doesn't believe either of these types of identities exist and when they try to reason with her why they are what they are she said she'll never change her mind and would rather just continue being friends with them without talking about these parts of their identity. Over the years I've reasoned with her little by little and now she's accepting of trans people though. I normally wouldn't be this patient with someone like this but since she's a family friend I also don't want to get on bad terms with her when I know her opinions will probably only change the way they have been - slowly and gradually.

Also, for those of you who put stock into VI, here are some pictures of us:

 
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EJCC

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^ Based on the above, I agree with you (and others in the thread) on ESFJ. Lots of Fe there.

And everything you've said about her values makes me think that she has a 1 fix. Could be 1w2, hence her enjoying being helpful. Her being down for having fun at a moment's notice still sounds 6w7 -- and a lot of the ways she chooses to have fun sound kind of cp6 to me.
 
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