I am my type, but don't "look" it. Why?

[á´…eparted]

So this has been on my mind ever since the meetup with [MENTION=19948]Showbread[/MENTION] [MENTION=23115]BadOctopus[/MENTION] and [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] several weeks ago, and I want to talk it out.

I am not calling my type into question. I know I am ENFJ, and I also know I am 1w2. The former though is somewhat odd to me. I know I am ENFJ because I definitely work foremost with Fe in my mind, and I supplement it with fairly equal parts Ni and Se (though I did not begin using the latter "right" until this past fall). Though it doesn't always come across that way.

I don't look like an ENFJ, and I want to understand why.

Note, I am only pointing out the external differences that most fly counter to what ENFJ usually is: On the surface, I appear like a Te dom, in some situations I sometimes look like an Se dom (though that's uncommon), but I don't really look like an Fe dom, and I am comparing myself to many other Fe doms that I know. There's four of us ENFJ's in my core friend group, and while all of us are very similar and can be "lumped together" there are areas where I am fundementally different with how I externally operate, and I don't know any other ENFJ's that share this. On issues, I actually quite often see eye to eye much more easily with several of my ISTJ friends. First and foremost, I am blunt and straightforward, and I can willingly turn my empathy on and off for many situations. I don't know any other Fe doms that can, or are even willing to do this. For example, if someone around me fucks up and does something wrong, and doesn't care, even if I know them well I will subject them to what the situation deserves, and will very unlikely feel sorry for them.

I'm also very apt to use "precedent" for solving situations and making judgement calls. My ENFJ friends (and as far as I can tell) most other ENFJ's don't really use that, and it's not their first line to do so. The reason I do so is it's less likely to make error to base something off a known. It's not actually my MO per-say, it's a learned skill. Nevertheless, much like I've learned how to socialize, it's become so ingrained in me that I automatically do it without consciously deciding to do so.

I don't want to be friends with the world, I want to be friends with people who are worthy. That sounds elitist (and it likely is), but I don't know how to word it otherwise (maybe people I can communicate well with?). Many ENFJ's I know (if not all?) want to be friends with nearly everyone they encounter, want to lift everyone up, and want everyone to be on the same level field. I definitely don't. Many even go out of their way to befriend people who are "broken" or something for the soul reason of feeling "they deserve a friend" or "I can fix that". I do not feel that is my responsibility at all, and I only do that unless there is reason to do so. It's not my MO at all. I associate with people where there is a mutual gain between both parties. Most ENFJ's actively seek the things I go against when it comes to people.

I can be very driving, very blunt/forceful, and have no issues imposing my will on other people. It doesn't need to be fueled by emotion or subjectivity either. In fact, I am far more comfortable with it when I have a solid external reason, authority, or solid item I can reference in an unambiguous manner. That way if people challenge it, it can't really be debated or pushed back against using a loophole or some bullshit technicality. Most ENFJ's are fairly forward, but aren't directly blunt or actively driving of others. In particular in an unambiguous manner. They tend to do much better when it is based off ambiguity.

Those are the big ones, I am sure others will come up/come out as the discussion ensues. Still, it's very puzzling to me why have so many atributes that go against what ENFJ's typically are. I know it happens occasionally, but that doesn't make it seem any less bizarre, or potentially invalidating. There's a reason Fe is associated with friendliness and inclusiveness. Just as Ni is associated with going with your gut and not needing a historical backing. I go opposite of those stereotypes. It's just the frequency and level that I go against them is high enough that it almost doesn't fit, despite thinking through those functions.

Thoughts? Questions? Discuss.

 

[RobinSkye]

I completely get that. What else would you expect to see externally from an Fe dom? What function do you relate with me externally?

 

[á´…eparted]

What else would you expect to see externally from an Fe dom?

Several points that I've noticed.

+ An aptness to root and lite up for the underdog.
+ Disinclination to take a cold rational seriously because it's not tempered (I do this occasionally, but not frequently).
+ Making a concerted effort to make sure others interactions are being productive, even if it doesn't directly effect them.
+ Needs to be busy all the time, but if it's counter-productive that's ok.
+ Displaying their caring aspect in a show-y manner.

 

[RobinSkye]

Several points that I've noticed.

+ An aptness to root and lite up for the underdog.
+ Disinclination to take a cold rational seriously because it's not tempered (I do this occasionally, but not frequently).
+ Making a concerted effort to make sure others interactions are being productive, even if it doesn't directly effect them.
+ Needs to be busy all the time, but if it's counter-productive that's ok.
+ Displaying their caring aspect in a show-y manner.

This confirms some of the things I thought I was noticing in Fe users.

 

[á´…eparted]

This confirms some of the things I thought I was noticing in Fe users.

They're common. Bare in mind external manifestations of the cognitive functions are not reliable, and there are a number of people that will not fit the classic picture that shows up with high frequency. I mean, you can't readily put 7,000,000,000 people in 16 boxes and expect them to all look very similar to one another in outward apperence. Function manifest in different ways.

I just appear to be a bit of an outlier in this respect. There are other people here ([MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] comes to mind in particular) who are their type, but outwardly run counter to quite a number of the "classic behaviors" of their type. It's been discussed before, but I haven't seen it come up for ENFJ, and I am just now seeing it more clearly for myself. It's further supported by the fact that there's a minority of people here who are *convinced* I am an ESTJ.

 

[Totenkindly]

It's hard to explain, but Te in an ESTJ feels detached....when you use it, it feels like it's in service to your personal values and very attached.

 

[Eilonwy]

If I remember correctly, your dad is ESTJ. Perhaps you experienced enough of his Te-dom when you were young that you've incorporated some aspects of it into yourself in whatever way Fe-dom would interpret that?

 

[á´…eparted]

It's hard to explain, but Te in an ESTJ feels detached....when you use it, it feels like it's in service to your personal values and very attached.

This would be accurate, and it bugs the piss out of me. I feel like I shouldn't be attached to them, and I try not to, but it just doesn't work. It's another topic though.

Would you say this is something readily picked up? Or something that's not noticed until repeated experience.

If I remember correctly, your dad is ESTJ. Perhaps you experienced enough of his Te-dom when you were young that you've incorporated some aspects of it into yourself?

He is (he's also 1w2). I definitely have tried to encorporate several of his traits into myself. Granted, we already do have a decent amount in common. Nevertheless, areas he is better than me at, I try and mirror. Some I have completely integrated, or realized it's been in me all alomg.

Ironically, I did not like or get along with my dad well until I was around 22.

 

[Haven]

I've known two IT manager types that were ENFJ, I think it's just male gender role stuff and Fe tries to act the part.

 

[Riva]

SX last maybe one of the main reasons.

Or maybe there is an off chance you are not an ENFJ.

I mean if you don't look like your type for too long for too many people you are probably not one. However, I don't think others are saying you are not a ENFJ, it's just that you don't seem like an ENFJ and you feel this? So lets assume you are indeed an ENFJ.

Maybe it's the fist reason I mentioned (SX last) or maybe you are depressed about something. Or maybe it's because you are a e1. Have you considered 1w9s? They are way more stone cold than 1w2s.

Leela from Futurama is an ESTJ 1w2 but she comes across as an ENFJ. I attribute this to her maturity and her 2 wing. So if you are a 1 perhaps you are a 1w9 cus w2s make even TJs come across slightly FJish.

 

[Jaguar]

It's further supported by the fact that there's a minority of people here who are *convinced* I am an ESTJ.

Scads of people were also convinced an NFP was ESTJ. The threads went on and on and on and on and . . . .

 

[Carpe Vinum]

A close friend of mine is ENFJ and you sound just like him. He's also good at turning off the empathy switch and being blunt with people when he needs to be. He does social work, and he's seen some really bad cases of child abuse. He's still probably the nicest person I know and has a huge heart, but he can be tough, too. He says his favorite animal is a bear and man does it suit him.

Personally I think you're just, like my friend, a very mature ENFJ. And if you stand next to other ENFJs, that difference will be noticeable. You will relate to ESTJs and other types more. I feel that way about myself and I'm an ESTP. My Fe and Ni are both pretty strong now. Put me next to a younger ESTP and you might think that I'm an ENFJ.

See what I mean?

 

[five sounds]

It's the enneagram man. 1w2 is gonna come off harsher and more cerebral than your average Fe dom. Embrace your badassnees my dear.

 

[EJCC]

Sx-last was one of the first things I thought of. I used to associate ENFJs with a certain type of intense, parental, personally-focused energy, until I got to know you and the late garbage/bologna (who IIRC is also sx-last). Makes sense that sx-last could be frequently misread as T, and sx-first/second as F.

 

[fetus]

So what are examples of Fe in your life? What makes you think you actually use Fe? I'm not trying to question you; I'm just trying to understand why. Personally I can see how you could be another EJ type.

 

[á´…eparted]

I've known two IT manager types that were ENFJ, I think it's just male gender role stuff and Fe tries to act the part.

I think my gender might influence things a little. Even so, I know other male ENFJ's where I differ. I might have too small of a sample size though. I don't really try to "act the part" though. At least, I don't actively try to fit myself to a male gender, I just do what feels comfortable.

SX last maybe one of the main reasons.

Or maybe there is an off chance you are not an ENFJ.

I mean if you don't look like your type for too long for too many people you are probably not one. However, I don't think others are saying you are not a ENFJ, it's just that you don't seem like an ENFJ and you feel this? So lets assume you are indeed an ENFJ.

Maybe it's the fist reason I mentioned (SX last) or maybe you are depressed about something. Or maybe it's because you are a e1. Have you considered 1w9s? They are way more stone cold than 1w2s.

Leela from Futurama is an ESTJ 1w2 but she comes across as an ENFJ. I attribute this to her maturity and her 2 wing. So if you are a 1 perhaps you are a 1w9 cus w2s make even TJs come across slightly FJish.

I never really think about stacking much. I looked into a bit more after the meetup, and the only conclusion I could draw is that I am sx last. People mostly regard me as ENFJ, but on a quick glance to the uninformed I don't look it. I was depressed for a long time (I'm bipolar II), but not anymore and it's been quite some time. I'm definitely not 1w9. 9 is the enneagram point I identify with the least by quite a large margin.

Scads of people were also convinced an NFP was ESTJ. The threads went on and on and on and on and . . . .

That's just... well that's certainly news to me.

A close friend of mine is ENFJ and you sound just like him. He's also good at turning off the empathy switch and being blunt with people when he needs to be. He does social work, and he's seen some really bad cases of child abuse. He's still probably the nicest person I know and has a huge heart, but he can be tough, too. He says his favorite animal is a bear and man does it suit him.

Personally I think you're just, like my friend, a very mature ENFJ. And if you stand next to other ENFJs, that difference will be noticeable. You will relate to ESTJs and other types more. I feel that way about myself and I'm an ESTP. My Fe and Ni are both pretty strong now. Put me next to a younger ESTP and you might think that I'm an ENFJ.

See what I mean?

It sounds like he has to out of necessity for his job. I can't say the same (I'm a chemist), but in a way I have developed an ability to do that more easily out of necessity stemmed from wanting to be more in control and to be able to judge things more objectively.

Sometimes I question my maturity (my spirit animal is definitely a squirrel) but for the most part I'd say yeah I am fairly far along. All of my ENFJ friends are younger than me, and the one I am most similar two I would say is the most mature and healthy of the bunch. The one I relate to the least is a 4w3 as well so there will certainly be differences there.

It's the enneagram man. 1w2 is gonna come off harsher and more cerebral than your average Fe dom. Embrace your badassnees my dear.

I figured this is part of it. My tritype as a whole is pretty darn cold. I just wish I knew another ENFJ 1w2! It would certainly help.

Sx-last was one of the first things I thought of. I used to associate ENFJs with a certain type of intense, parental, personally-focused energy, until I got to know you and the late garbage/bologna (who IIRC is also sx-last). Makes sense that sx-last could be frequently misread as T, and sx-first/second as F.

I tend to regard myself as fairly intense, parental, and personally-focused. I guess it's just a different way to go about it? What about sx makes it seem F like?

So what are examples of Fe in your life? What makes you think you actually use Fe? I'm not trying to question you; I'm just trying to understand why. Personally I can see how you could be another EJ type.

The biggest is I judge the external world in a subjective qualatative manner first and foremost. It's the hallmark of Fe dominance. In essence, I make judgement calls based off what I see around me, and I do so in a non-linear manner.

 

[fetus]

The biggest is I judge the external world in a subjective qualatative manner first and foremost. It's the hallmark of Fe dominance. In essence, I make judgement calls based off what I see around me, and I do so in a non-linear manner.

Do you think you would type differently if you were using MBTI rather than Jungian functions?

 

[á´…eparted]

Do you think you would type differently if you were using MBTI rather than Jungian functions?

I typically come out with ESTJ when I take MBTI tests. The core reason for this is questions are often framed from a Si/Ne axis, instead of a Se/Ni axis. My F/T score is usually around 50%.

 

[EJCC]

I tend to regard myself as fairly intense, parental, and personally-focused.

The way you vibe to me is intense, yes, but in a way that generally either involves 1) you, 2) your projects, or 3) your group. If you zero in on an individual thing, it's usually not a person IME -- it's a project. Between people, your attention seems scattershot, or distant. But that's just from my experience with you, and I don't know if you come across differently with others.

The other ENFJs I know tend to be similarly enthusiastic and joyful to the way you come across IRL, but in a way that seems catered to the individual -- trying to make it a good experience for THEM, in a way that's reminiscent of taking a kid to a theme park. Leading them from ride to ride, making sure they stay safe and do the right things, without letting on to the kid that they're not the one in control of the situation. I suspect you do similar things in leadership situations, but not all the time, like the ENFJs I know -- especially my godmother, and my two good ENFJ friends from high school.

What about sx makes it seem F like?

I guess the emotional intensity. If you think of your average sx-last ExTJ, for example, vs. the ExTJ sx-first and sx-seconds on the forum, I suspect you'd rarely see the inferior Fi in the sx-lasts, but would frequently see it in the sx-firsts and seconds. I'm thinking of myself, obviously, but also particular sx/sp and sp/sx ENTJs on the forum who frequently show their soft sides.

 

[á´…eparted]

The way you vibe to me is intense, yes, but in a way that generally either involves 1) you, 2) your projects, or 3) your group. If you zero in on an individual thing, it's usually not a person IME -- it's a project. Between people, your attention seems scattershot, or distant. But that's just from my experience with you, and I don't know if you come across differently with others.

Yes this is very accurate. Particular the bold. I've always blamed it on my Asperger's. It's just really, really hard for me to zero in on an individual for a long time. MUCH more so if I am in a group. One on one I can, but I always end up drifting off to something related, or totally external the individual. I think this is also a key difference between the other ENFJ's I know. I would say nearly all others would see me this way, as that is me very close to my comfort zone without wearing a mask. Perhaps it's uncommon for ENFJ's to be sx last? The below

The other ENFJs I know tend to be similarly enthusiastic and joyful to the way you come across IRL, but in a way that seems catered to the individual -- trying to make it a good experience for THEM, in a way that's reminiscent of taking a kid to a theme park. Leading them from ride to ride, making sure they stay safe and do the right things, without letting on to the kid that they're not the one in control of the situation. I suspect you do similar things in leadership situations, but not all the time, like the ENFJs I know -- especially my godmother, and my two good ENFJ friends from high school.

supports that. I have a difficult time figuring out what is best for them unless I know them very well, or the directly tell me what they want. Groups? Oh that's easy to read, but individual not so much. I have make a concerted effort to be "on" with this, and I run out of steam with it if I have to do it for several hours. You're right, with most ENFJ's I know this is on all the time. One of the ENFJ's in our group isn't 100% of the time, but I believe it's because he's a 4w3. It's a trait I don't really like in myself TBH, I hit a wall with socalizing a while back and I can't really improve it much beyond what I have despite wanting to. If I do I start shifting myself too far from who I am and it feels wrong and becomes draining.

That said, if I meet someone new that doesn't illicit a lot of excitement, or I haven't any back knowledge on, the "do things for them" clicks on automatically. That's a learned habit, and is why I am often too nice/forgiving to strangers.

Thinking to friends who somewhat share this trait with me, is my INFJ 5w4 friend. I suspect she is sx last. Like I, she tends to focus on groups, herself, or things. Rarely individual, despite the fact that with her she really genuinely does care about individuals, and will practically fall all over herself if someone needs assisitance or help. She also has a somewhat "cold" feel to her, and it feels difficult to be close and get close.

It's a side note, but I think this is the core reason why I've never found a relationship, and why I never (guy or girl) get approached by anyone expressing interest (it's sad). The times it has happened, have been the product of people watching me teach/being a student.

I guess the emotional intensity. If you think of your average sx-last ExTJ, for example, vs. the ExTJ sx-first and sx-seconds on the forum, I suspect you'd rarely see the inferior Fi in the sx-lasts, but would frequently see it in the sx-firsts and seconds. I'm thinking of myself, obviously, but also particular sx/sp and sp/sx ENTJs on the forum who frequently show their soft sides.

I believe this would make my father sx last then. His inferior Fi is rarely seen. I think I'm going to pay a little more attention to stacking in the future. I still don't think it's too informative by itself. However, as modifer to other things, it does seem to have a lot of effect and it makes sense (as do pretty much all of your explinations). In my mind I have always thought sx was more harsh, but I guess warmth can be associated with that, and it makes sense as you describe.

Does this mean then, by extension my inferior Ti shows up a lot? I honestly think little of it.