INTJ or INFP?

[Nasalaley]

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/what-s-my-type-/73386-life-story-read.html

I'm fairly sure I'm an introverted Fi/Te user, but for the life of me I can't decide which is stronger.

I believe it's possible that I may be an unhealthy INTJ. Take the description from socionic's ILI for example:

Introverted intuition in ILIs is predominantly characterized by well developed imaginative abilities and mental wanderings. ILI often spend a great deal of time simply thinking and may spend excessive amounts of time in their mind. Most ILIs somehow manage to spend most of their time in their minds regardless of the responsibilities with which they are burdened. This mental focus can be manifest by reflecting on scenarios, on pondering bodies of information, and assorted concepts of interest. They may be prone to excessive day dreaming, in creation of intricate inner worlds or universes, or in mentally replaying elements of their own personal experience. ILIs may even have novelistic tendencies where they create intricate plots, characters, and places, though many ILIs may be generally unmotivated to display such creativity. However, ILIs are not always inclined to share their imaginative tendencies or thoughts with others.

ILIs place great importance on factual accuracy and a basic understanding of how things work. Their views and perceptions naturally take into account any new factual information. For this reason, ILI's are often characterized by a nagging and constant sense of doubt, contradiction, and misinformation. They tend to be rather skeptical of other people's positions, and even frequently tend to question their own position. In groups the ILI will often question the validity of information being exchanged. Likewise, ILIs sometimes use a mocking and aggressive tone if they believe that the information being presented is wrong or absurd.

ILIs generally place moderate to minimal importance on such matters as cleanliness, comfort, and sensory stimuli. Some ILIs may perceive these elements as a distraction. It is not atypical of ILIs to be completely uninterested by and unable to find any value in something such as a piece of fine artwork. Different ILIs respond to different such artistic stimuli in different ways; for example, an ILI might scorn painting as being worthless but possess sufficient background to enjoy other media, such as sculpture or music.

ILIs are often uncertain about the messages that their own body sends them. An ILI might feel some irregularity in their own body and be unsure as to its significance in the overall functioning of the body.

As a consequence, ILIs tend to be somewhat reclusive and often feel out of touch with their social surroundings. The rules of social "games" are often not naturally understood by ILIs. The are often unconfident and uneasy in social settings, especially those in which they feel that are expected to abide by social conventions that they have little connection to such as tribesmanship or purposeless joviality. Additionally, ILIs tend to regard the development of trust with others with significant anxiety, fearing that their inner world or antisocial tendencies will be unfavorably looked upon by others, and that most of the good will and friendliness they see in others is a pretense of social interaction rather than an expression of genuine emotional reactions.

ILIs are often characterized by their inertia. If left to their own devices, ILIs may choose to do relatively little to interact with the outside world. When they do interact with the outside world, ILIs often find their activities to be empty and unfulfilling. To ILIs, life is often characterized by periods of stimulation. For the ILI, however, true stimulation is often spontaneous, and interludes between periods of stimulation are often characterized by tedium, inertia, and apathy. ILIs are often not very adept at finding new areas of interest, and may seek to continue to reproduce past experiences instead of moving on to new things.

ILIs tend to deeply value feelings of attachment to those whom engage them in a deep and lasting emotional kinship. They have a hard time establishing these sentiments as they are naturally disinterested in most people, who seem outwardly unremarkable or having nothing in common with them. However, when the ILI has developed deep interpersonal bonds, they tend to hold on to such attachments very deeply. ILIs are almost always deeply unconfident about their social abilities and, consequently, they rarely speak of their inner bonds with others to common outsiders with whom they share merely superficial acquaintanceships. Feelings of this sort are rarely talked about with others, but the ILI may be painfully aware of these sentiments for fear of appearing overly sentimental or having feelings that are "out of line" or inappropriate to their present level of social interaction. ILIs may tend to love from afar and in their solitude if there is something or someone they love, because of their lack of confidence in their own feelings.

I relate to all of the quoted text, verbatim. Yet, these types of quotes throw me off:

Famous INTJs - CelebrityTypes.com

"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do."

" have been right about everything."

"It is impossible and therefore certain."

Seriously, people really talk like this?

Anyway, here is what I know is true:

1) While my feelings are strong and I may daydream about being liked and yadda yadda, I am skeptical of people and their intentions. In my mind, everyone is trying to scam me.

2) No matter how much I study the difference between Te and Ti, nothing comes of it. From what I've read, Te is about "getting things done". I'm afraid I'm not that rash.

3) This whole P vs J dichotomy throws me off. I know it's bogus, but sometimes I can't help but think there is something to it. While I'd rather have things settle and decided, I wouldn't call myself an organized person. For example, I do not see the point in folding clothes since I'm going to wear them anyway. I stuff my shirts and pants in my drawer and pull out whatever fits when the time comes.

4) I've been told my writing is "loaded with Ne", which is funny considering how Tolstoy couldn't focus on one single character for longer than five pages in Anna Karenina.

So what I'm asking is how can I determine whether I am INTJ with a strong Fi or an INFP with a strong Te.

 

[OrangeAppled]

1st paragraph - sounds like an introvert, especially an INxx type, not exclusive to INTJs at all

2nd paragraph - Te, yes, but could be inferior manifestation in an INFP if it tends to come out mostly when stressed or the person doesn't identify with it (ie it IS a part of them, but they don't feel like it represents who they really are or it's not how they like to be seen, aka the ego). INFPs are less likely to place importance on factual accuracy, not because they are okay with inaccuracy, but they tend to be more of "gist" people. However, they may overanalyze many positions because of Ne (exploring every possibility) and it's not always playful/positive.

3rd paragraph - not sure this is type related, but INFPs seem much more likely to appreciate aesthetics without any practical function. INFPs are stereotypically messier and INTJs stereotypically clean/neat due to more focus on organization and efficiency. INFPs don't usually need to possess expertise or special interest in an area to appreciate artistic merit, however; although, I am not convinced this is true of INTJs either. I actually see this tendency more prominent in Te-dom, because I think it has more to do with valuation than taking in raw sensory information. Ignoring body signals is typical of N types in general.

4th paragraph - may be any introvert or someone with social anxiety, suggests to crappy Fe and low extroversion over all. Enneagram 4 & 5 will likely relate most, and perhaps more introverted 6s. 5 & 6 types may be INTJ and INFP may be any of those.

5th paragraph - any introvert

6th paragraph - sounds like enneagram 4 & 5 stuff, so almost any INxx type, with the exception of INFJs who may be gushier. Stereotypically more INTJ, but some INFPs can have an appearance of coldness despite deep attachment and strong feelings.

- I am skeptical of people and their intentions. In my mind, everyone is trying to scam me.
Not typical of an INFP mindset; even if they occasionally think this, it would not be something which defines their outlook. Pe in the aux tends to manifest as seeing positive opportunities/possibilities, so negativity for "what will be" is not often projected. An INFP may be more likely to say, "In my mind, everyone hates me, is criticizing or finds me annoying". The nature of what they project is more about insecurity over their "objective" value, whereas an INTJ may be more insecure over how aspects of reality will unfold that they cannot control or influence.

- Te vs Ti
Te is about structuring reality according to logical principles one accepts, less so about logical concepts one invents or refines. Ti is more about creating and refining concepts of logic using reasoning. This doesn't mean Te is action in comparison; the structuring a Te type does can be done in the mind or a theoretical one. So an INTJ may have a sudden insight which seems like a concept of what is logical (or how something works), but they don't analyze or reason to get there; they use reason more to build a strategy of what to do with the idea. Just because they theorize on a strategy doesn't mean they do it though. Unlike INTPs, they will likely not be exploring possibilities in terms of ideas of what to do with a logical concept (the INTP is more "exploratory"), but instead will focus structuring an application of an insight (even if done in the mind and not a real world venture). An extroverted function doesn't mean literal interaction with an object or people, just as an introverted function can manifest when interacting. It's whether the focus is on the inner or outer nature of things; so Te is the outer nature, or how stuff connects to reach goals or to make stuff happen, and Ti is the inner nature, or what makes stuff "stuff" to begin with .

A decent way to think of it is INTPs build concepts of what is logical using reason (and only seek facts as reference points to check for accuracy) and then explore many unrelated possible ways it could and does manifest in reality. INTJs have an insight about some underlying principle in reality and then structure it using accepted knowledge of what is logical in order to apply the insight (seeking facts to aid in "building", less so to check what is true, as they readily accept their own insight).

People with poor auxiliary may not get that far. INTPs may get stuck on building logical concepts (ie trying to understand everything by fitting it together with their existing logical concepts, but not exploring what any of it means or could mean in reality) and INTJs may get stuck on simply contemplating their own insights (ie falling in love with how much they "see" as compared to others, but then not doing much with it so that they remain a vague to others). It is very hard to type introverts with a weak or not evident auxiliary, IMO.

 

[bilbotook]

From the description you've given yourself, I'd say you seem like a definite INFP. But I can't confirm anything since I don't actually know you.

 

[Nasalaley]

I've had an overbearing Fe mother shadow and shelter me my whole life. This woman is a fat Cersei Lannister (if that paints a picture of how two-faced she is) who tried to brainwash me into all kinds of illogical crap. For example, telling me to be friends with everyone. Looking back, I see how dangerous and terrible that advice is. Another example was telling my 5 year old self that the Anti-Christ would come, and on occasion that if I left her side I would be kidnapped and raped.

She tried to force her Fe on me and not knowing any better, I adopted it for many years. It wasn't until adulthood that I started to see how BS Fe and Si really were. You cannot expect everyone to always get along and you can not hold on to tradition in an ever changing world.

I may have the Ni and Te cognitive functions, but none of the behavioral stereotypes. Consider Raskolnikov from Crime and Punishment: while we are both curmudgeons trying to get by in the World, we wallow in our pity and irrational reveries rather than become the founders or some life-changing organization. Once again, more like Raskolnikov and less like Hank Rearden. (I also relate to Levin from Anna Karenina but have no clue what type of IN type he is).

I do notice Fi as I constantly create scenarios/scenes for books, but nothing ever comes from it. I enjoy walking around the house with my iPod and letting my mind create moving images for the music. Unlike Fi, I do not hold any values I wouldn't be willing to change if necessary. Call me an @$$hole, but the World's problems are not mine, and once I hold a grudge it is hard to let go. As Mr. Darcy says "My good opinion once lost is lost forever."

Behaviorally, Ne would make sense as I do not have 'Ni focus'. My stream of consciousness writing plus randomness that pops up also adds questions.

Te is about structuring reality according to logical principles one accepts, less so about logical concepts one invents or refines. Ti is more about creating and refining concepts of logic using reasoning.

I understand, but I cannot tip the scale to favor one over the other.

So an INTJ may have a sudden insight which seems like a concept of what is logical (or how something works), but they don't analyze or reason to get there;

And that is why I remain skeptical of Ti. I do not trust my conceptions , the trouble is that sometimes while lying in bed I'm too lazy to check the facts and find the truth. I'm reticent to act because of the idea of failure. I MUST be the best writer the World has seen, or one of this generation's best. I suppose the fear of failure lingers around me.

Unlike INTPs, they will likely not be exploring possibilities in terms of ideas of what to do with a logical concept (the INTP is more "exploratory"), but instead will focus structuring an application of an insight (even if done in the mind and not a real world venture).

We may have to go into sensory territory. Can you give me a real life example of what you're talking about?

A part of the problem is my inability to express what I mean: my feelings, my thoughts, what things actually are, dreams, ideas, etc. This is why I feel more comfortable writing and texting than talking.

Here is what I've been up to as of late:

A while ago I set the unreachable goal of reading everything ever written. I decided to start with Homer, but then decided to teach myself ancient Greek so I could read him in his original tongue, but THEN decided that the time wasted learning a dead language would be put to better use. I researched as best as I could to try and find the perfect translation (this took longer than I care to admit), until I said screw it and read the common Butler translation. I don't care if it is considered a sin to read Homer in prose, the adaptions are not vastly different. Plus, the fact that Homer is not original Homer (many changes may have occurred as the oral poem was written down) so it doesn't matter anyway. As much as I'd like to be bi-lingual, the words are still the same, just in a foreign tongue. So my plan (after reading McCarthy's The Road) is to go through the Greeks and Romans (I have a list of over 50 names plus the Bible), and then carry on to early Eastern culture. Then I will follow this list: English literature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do not feel comfortable writing until I can say I understand the world and know my predecessors as to size up what I'm going to be compared to.

Is that Ti or Te?

 

[Nasalaley]

My current state:

1-what makes you angry?

There are many things that make me angry. For one, the noises outside my window from the singing birds to those dopey music blasters who have garbage taste in music. I am not, however, one to show my anger to the outside world. For example, I would never knock on a neighbors door and tell them to keep quiet if they were noisy, although I would imagine doing so in mental scenarios.

Things that I deem unjust or unfair would make the top of my list, especially when the treatment is geared towards myself or the people close to me (although depending on the day I'd say what happens to them is none of my business -- it's a complicated relationship.)

Coughs, Sneezes, choking noises, people talking loud or blasting their televisions when I'm trying to do something, car doors slamming, the sound of lawnmowers, etc.

2-what do you like/dislike most about people?

I don't really like people at all, or at least I pretend not to. Sure I'd never tell someone to "fuck off" for engaging me in a conversation, such as the vapid "how's the weather" type of dialogue, but I feel quite uncomfortable in social situations, and I am wary of strangers due to paranoia and past experience.

I do not see people as good or evil (nor do I believe in such foolish concepts), yet it is hard for me to say what I like until I see it.

What I dislike are those "high horse" types who call people hypocrites, monsters, selfish etc.

These are words that can describe the majority of people. People can contradict themselves everyday without noticing, thereby making themselves "hypocrites"; people who want what's best for their kids would put their children above other people's kids if they could, which means they're "selfish".

I also hate these unstated ideas that most people have where big business is evil, and celebrity's who want to be taken seriously have egos. Most adults need to grow up and get over their pretty jealousy.

3-do you like animals? why?

From a distance. Any animal that could kill me (snakes, tigers, bears, elephants) can fuck right off. Regarding Cats and Dogs, if I decide to have a pet then I will love it and take care of it. If, however, some strange dog passes by and shits in my yard while it's elderly owner smiles at me, I tend to day dream of shitting in that person's yard while smiling.

tl;dr: I'll say I'm indifferent.

4-what do you like most about the favorite people in your life?

I have no favorite people. If I like someone, it could be for any number of reasons.

5-what do you like/dislike most about yourself?

Dislike: How I constantly space out and lose track of reality, my paranoia, irrational fears, lack of knowledge in practical matters, financial dependance, occasional laziness. I use to hate my body but I'm on the path to losing weight, so I don't care much anymore.

Like: I'd like to think I can see things objectively, although I tend to mentally put myself above others. If a cop pulls me over, it's because the officer made me nervous and "caused" me to screw up.

6-do you care about being fashionable? why/why not?

I'll wear it if it fits, as long as it isn't something extremely ridiculous like Motley and pointed shoes.

As for fashion, it tends to be a really useless, shallow concept.

7-do you prefer to fit in or stand out?

If standing out means drawing negative attention, then no. If fitting in means I wear a mask and agree to things I don't want to do, then no.

8-what activities do you enjoy?

Private activities such as reading. I'm a homebody so I'm not really attracted to anything that requires socialization or being around groups of other people.

9-what makes you feel secure?

Nothing really. I always feel like something bad can happen at any time.

10-do you like being in a relationship? why/why not?

Never been in one. Honestly, I'm interested in knowing what it's like to fuck, but I understand love is more science than matters of the heart, and "love at first sight" is another name for physical attraction.

11-what do you love and why? Could be people, things, places, etc.

From time to time, I like the rush of the roller-coaster. Usually in my day to day life, I enjoy reading

12-what do you spend the most time thinking about?

Jesus, I live in my head. I usually think in terms of images: Scenes to put in a novel, being interviewed (which is usually how I develop my beliefs), music videos for when I listen to music or being in a band and doing a cover on stage (which I'd never do, especially since I can't sing), fucking celebrities, fucking non-famous people, how I could've handled the past differently, the future, who I want to be, what I want to learn, being reclusive, and on and on.

13-How much have you changed over the years? Who were you as a child?

I've been told stories about how I was a demanding brat. At around 5 I would scream "I want a happy meal!" at midnight. I choked out an old man in Home Depot after seeing Tim Burton's Batman on television. I broke off the leg of a plastic chair and throw it across the room to cut some guy's face either because he jokingly disrespected me or a family member. Between my brother's birth, starting Kindergarten, and a couple of family deaths in the course of 3 years, I became less aggressive.

My first few Elementary school years were spent being curious and unaware of what was appropriate. I remember trying to ask two teachers a question while they conversed and having them tell me something about "adults are talking".

In the 4th grade, I started acting as kind and considerate as possible. I was like a 4th grade Jesus. I always did my work, stayed out of trouble, and the teachers love me.

In Middle and High School I attempted to fit in but eventually after many bad experiences with people, I decided to become somewhat of a loner and stop giving a shit.

Now, I'm a bit misanthropic.

I think I've never truly known myself, and let others dictate who I should be. Even fictional characters. I remember falling into a depression after watching NGE, and looking at the ceiling as I wondered about the meaning of it all.

In my head, I act like Mr. Darcy or Tywin Lannister. In real life, this is more like me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dooCQdg9-NA

And this is how I feel sometimes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t0s7o3NKUw

Does this help?

 

[Kullervo]

My current state:



Does this help?

You actually remind me of a darker, cooler INFP (the "Byronic" INFP). Males tend to be less gushy and warm than females, and in general I find that the INFP descriptions are biased towards an INFP 9. In Enneagram you give off the feel of a cp6w5 - less melancholic and sentimental than a 4 would be, and not as detached as a 5, if anything stands out it would be your tendencies towards paranoia, bluntness and outsider mentality.

 

[OrangeAppled]

You actually remind me of a darker, cooler INFP (the "Byronic" INFP). Males tend to be less gushy and warm than females, and in general I find that the INFP descriptions are biased towards an INFP 9. In Enneagram you give off the feel of a cp6w5 - less melancholic and sentimental than a 4 would be, and not as detached as a 5, if anything stands out it would be your tendencies towards paranoia, bluntness and outsider mentality.

Gushy INFPs are generally mistyped people. Even the nice, sweet 9s fall short of "gushy", IMO.

----

OP has issues with competence, which could be inferior Te, but also pops up in INTP 5s a lot, or INTPs in general. INTPs fear failure a lot, especially as they know they arent really connected to factual reality and their thinking may be flawed for it (hence the chip on the shoulder Jung describes).

Overall I see more inferior Fe issues, and going with "vibe typing" he reminds me more of disgruntled INTPs we have had around here. Emotion doesnt mean feeling....and I see emotion, but not much valuing.

I would go with INTP 6 or maybe 5. Id go with IxxP over an IxxJ type. I wouldn't rule out e5. I think he IS detached enough to be a 5, but then people underestimate the 5 emotional experience, which tends to be the reason they mistype if they do. Connection to 8 could explain the outburts of anger....and so could Se-aux.

Besides the making up stories and characters bit, I would type the OP ISXP, although I dont think its a stretch to imagine they dream up stories and characters.

What do you think of Anthony Bourdain, OP?

 

[Nasalaley]

if anything stands out it would be your tendencies towards paranoia, bluntness and outsider mentality.

Couldn't that be said about all the IN types? Bobby Fischer in later life, Hitler, Dostoevsky, Orwell, etc.

INTPs fear failure a lot, especially as they know they arent really connected to factual reality and their thinking may be flawed for it (hence the chip on the shoulder Jung describes).

The problem I have with Ti is that it takes effort and focus. It does not come naturally. I do not spend copious hours building frameworks (at least, it doesn't seem like it) and focusing on strict logic. For me to have that type of conscious focus is rare.

You actually remind me of a darker, cooler INFP (the "Byronic" INFP). Males tend to be less gushy and warm than females, and in general I find that the INFP descriptions are biased towards an INFP 9. In Enneagram you give off the feel of a cp6w5 - less melancholic and sentimental than a 4 would be, and not as detached as a 5, if anything stands out it would be your tendencies towards paranoia, bluntness and outsider mentality.

That would be cool, but here is my problem with Fi:

Whatever values I hold dear are adaptable. I see exceptions to every rule, and 7 times out of 10 prefer revenge to forgiveness and justice to mercy. I'd rather listen to a logical argument than one that uses sentiment. The only aspect of Fi I can relate to is having an imagination, but imagination can be linked to either of the intuitive functions.

What do you think of Anthony Bourdain, OP?

Who?

I would type the OP ISXP

Uh-uh. No way. Don't get me wrong, I do not have a sensation bias (I wish I could focus more on concrete reality tbh), but Se as one of my top two functions is unlikely. I'm the type to put something down and lose it in seconds. I rarely see, and observe even less. Sometimes when I snap out of my reveries it takes me a second to realize where I am. If someone could treat me like a sensor and put all of this babble into plain English and explain how the functions actually pertain to real people in real life, that'd be cool.

For example, how do Te "organize the environment"? If celebritytypes is to be believed then how do Julia Stiles, Jodie Foster, and Ashley Olsen use Te as a social function? How does Tina Fey, Sigourney Weaver, and Jesse Eisenberg use Ti?

Or better yet, how would Ti and Te users go about solving a rubix cube? How would they go about starting their own business or writing a novel?

How would Fi and Fe users handle fundraisers? How would they comfort a best friend who lost his/her mother?

How would Se and Si see the Mona Lisa? What about Ni and Ne?

Please do not link me to anything. Michael Pierce/Davesuperpowers/celebritytypes explains everything by saying nothing.

Hell, better yet. Tell me where examples of Ti, Te, Ni, Ne, Si, Se or Fe, Fi exist in either my original Life Story post, or the questionnaire I just filled out.

When I think of functions, I think of extremes. Every walk down memory lane is Si, whatever is random is Ne, Drinking a beer is Se, etc. It's all crap.

 

[xpeacexrainbowx]

intjs are actually inner perceivers and INFPs are inner judgers
does this help?

 

[Nasalaley]

No, because I'm not entirely sure if my primary mode is conscious or unconscious. I see myself as either an INFJ who went through some bad experiences, an INTJ who has trouble managing his Te, or a dark INFP.

Despite the fact that I usually test as an INTP, my "thinking" is not conscious. I go into my head only to snap back into reality having forgotten my duties/chores. I may collect facts, ideas, and other tidbits, but I do not really build internal systems.

This is either Ni or Fi, but I'm not sure which.



EDIT: Maybe my eyes hold the key

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13701&d=1432473015

 

[windoverlake]

The problem I have with Ti is that it takes effort and focus. It does not come naturally. I do not spend copious hours building frameworks (at least, it doesn't seem like it) and focusing on strict logic. For me to have that type of conscious focus is rare.



That would be cool, but here is my problem with Fi:

Whatever values I hold dear are adaptable. I see exceptions to every rule, and 7 times out of 10 prefer revenge to forgiveness and justice to mercy. I'd rather listen to a logical argument than one that uses sentiment. The only aspect of Fi I can relate to is having an imagination, but imagination can be linked to either of the intuitive functions.

INTJ. The biggest indicator (for me) of an Ni-dom is frustration and anger at seeing exceptions to every rule, but also wanting a singular explanation/way. Your Ni perceives the whole, understands the infuriating myriadness of it all, but your Te wants to organise and shift things, because it also understands that truth, by definition, must have singularity and universality. So that push-pull drives your writing and narrative. And btw, your writing is very Ni-Te: organising 'chaotic' impressions/experience so that it's readable.

 

[windoverlake]

No, because I'm not entirely sure if my primary mode is conscious or unconscious. I see myself as either an INFJ who went through some bad experiences, an INTJ who has trouble managing his Te, or a dark INFP.

Despite the fact that I usually test as an INTP, my "thinking" is not conscious. I go into my head only to snap back into reality having forgotten my duties/chores. I may collect facts, ideas, and other tidbits, but I do not really build internal systems.

This is either Ni or Fi, but I'm not sure which.

You truly do not seem like any kind of XXXP to me. You certainly don't write like one.

Forgetting duties/chores doesn't necessarily narrow it down, as I've seen this kind of forgetting in all sorts of XNXXs. Question: When you do snap back into reality, are you quick and eager to get on top of things, or do you prefer to ignore reality-based concerns? If the latter, are you able to shove it out of your mind, to the point that you can kind of achieve a state of true forgetting?

EDIT: Maybe my eyes hold the key

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13701&d=1432473015

INTJ > INXP

 

[Nasalaley]

So that push-pull drives your writing and narrative. And btw, your writing is very Ni-Te: organising 'chaotic' impressions/experience so that it's readable.

Funny you say that. People on Reddit constantly tell me I have Ne because of how random and jumpy my writing is.

Ni-dom is frustration and anger at seeing exceptions to every rule, but also wanting a singular explanation/way.

I relate to that. For example, the idea of murder. Capital Punishment follows the "eye for an eye" rule, or the fact that so many praise their countries soldiers when many of them in fact are murderers, or that it is okay to kill in self defense. The motivation doesn't matter; murder is murder. If murder is bad, then all murders are bad. If it is a crime, then those who do it are criminals.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by wanting a singular way. If you mean wanting things to connect, then that makes sense. One of the things that drives me crazy about George RR Martin's ASOIAF is how he keeps moving characters further and further away from each other, and how some characters have no purpose. To me, every character with a name should have a purpose, and every word on the page should have a reason for existing.

Question: When you do snap back into reality, are you quick and eager to get on top of things, or do you prefer to ignore reality-based concerns? If the latter, are you able to shove it out of your mind, to the point that you can kind of achieve a state of true forgetting?

Let me hit you with an example and maybe you can make something of it. I am told at 9:00 to transfer laundry, and so I think to myself "Okay, I'll remember this time." So I'll walk around listening to my iPod and create scenes in my head. Maybe later on I'll read a bit and then play some kingdom Hearts. Hours later I'll randomly think "Oh shit, I forgot the laundry." However, I do not go and get it done that instant.

See, for the past two years I've been on a break where I can spent every waking day doing whatever I want. Yet I know when school starts in late June, I'll be guided under formal training and have ample time to work on my novel.

 

[windoverlake]

Funny you say that. People on Reddit constantly tell me I have Ne because of how random and jumpy my writing is.

Well, you have to look below and find the motivation beneath the writing when trying to discern which function is leading. I have my Ne jumping bean moments, too, but those moments leave me unsatisfied, and if you observe someone's output closely enough you will see what's the driving force. Ne jumping is good for collecting data and trying out different ideas, but an Ni-dom will eventually seek to discard most of it. Ne-doms are happy to collect and amass informations; Ni-doms see collecting as temporary and are always looking forward to the fire sale.

I relate to that. For example, the idea of murder. Capital Punishment follows the "eye for an eye" rule, or the fact that so many praise their countries soldiers when many of them in fact are murderers, or that it is okay to kill in self defense. The motivation doesn't matter; murder is murder. If murder is bad, then all murders are bad. If it is a crime, then those who do it are criminals.

This is what I meant by singular. The seeking of laws, principles, that which cannot be hair-split. You can split hairs for the mental exercise, but if you're not satisfied with multiplicity of truths and explanations, then look into self-researching if you might be an Ni-dom. An Ni-dom is rarely satisfied; I've never seen it happen. An Ni-dom is the type most likely to fuck themselves over if they start to feel too comfortable. Self-doubt is strong in Ni-doms. They'll turn it on themselves/ideas later, just to make sure the idea still holds up; also, Ni-doms have to re-test everything, not because the idea has changed, but because they themselves have/might have changed. Ideas and concepts remain static, but it's against that which remains unchanging (Truth) that Ni-doms test and re-assess their own evolution or progress. Ni-doms are very, very self-concerned that way. It's not necessarily arrogance, because it's not about the mind (Ti) or heart (Fi), but a priori perception (Ni). Ni doesn't feel like it has a fixed location, so self-doubt trumps everything else; it's self-concerned because it's always filtering for Truth, and so it knows it has to seek clarity. That's why Ni-doms are ecstatic when they have to throw out a bunch of stuff, and they'll do it without any nostalgic consideration. The preoccupation and drive towards Truth is absolute and paramount, which exhibits as obsessiveness. Very unrelenting energy.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by wanting a singular way. If you mean wanting things to connect, then that makes sense. One of the things that drives me crazy about George RR Martin's ASOIAF is how he keeps moving characters further and further away from each other, and how some characters have no purpose. To me, every character with a name should have a purpose, and every word on the page should have a reason for existing.

+1 INXJ.

Let me hit you with an example and maybe you can make something of it. I am told at 9:00 to transfer laundry, and so I think to myself "Okay, I'll remember this time." So I'll walk around listening to my iPod and create scenes in my head. Maybe later on I'll read a bit and then play some kingdom Hearts. Hours later I'll randomly think "Oh shit, I forgot the laundry." However, I do not go and get it done that instant.

Can you go to bed knowing your damp laundry is still in the washer? How are you with your possessions, even something easily replaceable and inexpensive?

See, for the past two years I've been on a break where I can spent every waking day doing whatever I want. yet I know when school starts in late June, I'll be guided under formal training and have ample time to work on my novel.

This part of your post doesn't explictly relate to the preceding chunk of narrative. It does, in that you're relating your chill attitude about laundry with your break from school, but there still exists a gap and leap between the two parts of the narrative that I filled in myself. You had a train of thought (in your mind) linking forgotten laundry with spending your waking time doing whatever you want (allowing you to forget laundry), but you didn't link them in your post. I do this all the time, and it happens in editing. It leads to non-sequitur moments.

 

[Nasalaley]

Can you go to bed knowing your damp laundry is still in the washer? How are you with your possessions, even something easily replaceable and inexpensive?

As embarrassing as it is to admit, I still live at home. When I was on my own for a year, the laundry and dishes were done on constant rotation. Here, I know Mom will take care of everything, so I just let it happen.

This part of your post doesn't explictly relate to the preceding chunk of narrative. It does, in that you're relating your chill attitude about laundry with your break from school, but there still exists a gap and leap between the two parts of the narrative that I filled in myself. You had a train of thought (in your mind) linking forgotten laundry with spending your waking time doing whatever you want (allowing you to forget laundry), but you didn't link them in your post. I do this all the time, and it happens in editing. It leads to non-sequitur moments.

Yeah, people on these types of forums don't seem to realize that I just want to get the words out. This is why my prose reads like a 12 year old's stream of consciousness. On the other hand, working on a novel would allow me to structure and revise as I see fit, and I'd have a good chuck of time to write it in without feeling the rush of the day.

An Ni-dom is rarely satisfied; I've never seen it happen. An Ni-dom is the type most likely to fuck themselves over if they start to feel too comfortable. Self-doubt is strong in Ni-doms. They'll turn it on themselves/ideas later, just to make sure the idea still holds up; also, Ni-doms have to re-test everything, not because the idea has changed, but because they themselves have/might have changed.

This strikes a chord. People have told me countless times that this makes me Ne because "Ni types would just know", yet my moods, surroundings, and people have had an effect on the way I perceive myself. It is a never ending circle of Misanthropic--sensitive--objective--sensitive--objective--misanthropic. When Sensitive I can be either Fi or an Fe from an emotional distance, when objective I think of myself as a cold hard NT, and when Misanthropic I wonder if I'm a Scrooge-esque feeler or an immature thinker.

The problem I have with MBTI is that 97% of the community from here to the subreddits to the individual forums--and even celebritytypes and Davesuperpowers are guilty of this without even realizing--cannot separate one man of one type from another man. If I am INTJ, then I am not Stephen Hawkings as he is not Jay-Z, as he is not Ayn Rand as she is not...Ashley Olson. There may be sensors who are more intelligent than me, such as Kubrick. I do not proclaim myself as someone who will change the world, or someone who is vastly more intelligent than most people, nor do I play Machiavellian games (because in my current position, I don't have to). And yet reading the ILI description is like reading a biography, from the Si's lack of cleanliness and irregularity with bodily signs, to the Ti's lack of analyzing over systematic models.

And concerning what you said about Ni and change, could that explain why I am not who I was as a child? At first I was aggressive and dominating, but school and my smothering mother turned me into a docile little pup. Now, I'm praying for rain, I'm praying for tidal waves. I wanna see the ground give way. I wanna watch it all go down.

My feelings summed up in certain moods:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgL_5QcZCMo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V6GHnxEJjg

 

[windoverlake]

As embarrassing as it is to admit, I still live at home. When I was on my own for a year, the laundry and dishes were done on constant rotation. Here, I know Mom will take care of everything, so I just let it happen.

Yeah, this isn't the best example as laziness can be seen in just about everyone at some point or another.

Yeah, people on these types of forums don't seem to realize that I just want to get the words out. This is why my prose reads like a 12 year old's stream of consciousness. On the other hand, working on a novel would allow me to structure and revise as I see fit, and I'd have a good chuck of time to write it in without feeling the rush of the day.

Your novel: do you have a desire to publish, or do you write for yourself?

This strikes a chord. People have told me countless times that this makes me Ne because "Ni types would just know", yet my moods, surroundings, and people have had an effect on the way I perceive myself. It is a never ending circle of Misanthropic--sensitive--objective--sensitive--objective--misanthropic. When Sensitive I can be either Fi or an Fe from an emotional distance, when objective I think of myself as a cold hard NT, and when Misanthropic I wonder if I'm a Scrooge-esque feeler or an immature thinker.

Ni will require aloneness to confirm or explore any sort of knowing, because one's Te/Fe is outer-focused; Ni needs an enforced solitude so that Ni can be with the new data. Also, there are degrees of knowing, so it's not starkly obvious in an explicit way each time; sometimes it's a slight nudge, other times it can be an undeniable pang when a convergence of details come together and just speak to you, and there's all the in-between. Either way, Ni knowing is based on holistic perception; so yeah, mood, surrounding, people would have an effect and influence on Ni's 'knowing'.

The problem I have with MBTI is that 97% of the community from here to the subreddits to the individual forums--and even celebritytypes and Davesuperpowers are guilty of this without even realizing--cannot separate one man of one type from another man. If I am INTJ, then I am not Stephen Hawkings as he is not Jay-Z, as he is not Ayn Rand as she is not...Ashley Olson. There may be sensors who are more intelligent than me, such as Kubrick. I do not proclaim myself as someone who will change the world, or someone who is vastly more intelligent than most people, nor do I play Machiavellian games (because in my current position, I don't have to). And yet reading the ILI description is like reading a biography, from the Si's lack of cleanliness and irregularity with bodily signs, to the Ti's lack of analyzing over systematic models.

Yes, there is absolute individuality, but beneath that is essence: that is what is common. If you look closely enough, you'll see it. It takes time, and the process also requires the removal of the ego. A lot of people are more concerned with the image of a type (its result), rather than motivation, so a lot of typing is wishful thinking rather than detached study from observation.

And concerning what you said about Ni and change, could that explain why I am not who I was as a child? At first I was aggressive and dominating, but school and my smothering mother turned me into a docile little pup. Now, I'm praying for rain, I'm praying for tidal waves. I wanna see the ground give way. I wanna watch it all go down.

Could be. There's a lot underneath the surface of what you're saying, and I detect a very personal kind of heat, a freshness of anger, which any type can experience, but that's neither here nor there: it's apparent to me that you deliver this heat in an INXJ fashion. And you own it, probably because you don't really personalise. It's a mad contradiction of being very self-concerned, and yet not, because you also know this too shall pass, and it's not really about you. You'll watch it all go down; nothing really matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgL_5QcZCMo

Love/hate. Again, nothing matters. Nothing is off limits.

 

[Nasalaley]

Love/hate. Again, nothing matters. Nothing is off limits.

I had to edit the post. But I'm glad you got the jist.

Yes, there is absolute individuality, but beneath that is essence: that is what is common. If you look closely enough, you'll see it. It takes time, and the process also requires the removal of the ego. A lot of people are more concerned with the image of a type (its result), rather than motivation, so a lot of typing is wishful thinking rather than detached study from observation.

I understand the world is neither full of people who are completely individual nor is everyone part of the whole, as (Imo) some lives don't matter. It's just alarming to see that Hitler, Bin Laden, and Schopenhauer described as a type known for being "warm and considerate" while Julia Stiles, Ashley Olsen, and Colin Firth are described as belonging to "hard-headed and critical visionaries" also stereotyped as being one of the most intelligent of type. Pardon me, but if one of the Olsen twins can fit the INTJ description, then Paris Hilton must be splitting the atom.

Your novel: do you have a desire to publish, or do you write for yourself?

Publish as to never have to work a day in my life. Novelists can live on a mountaintop away from everyone and still afford groceries. However, I would only write a "and they all lived happily ever after" story if I knew it could sell. But most importantly, I want to be successful. Have my name mentioned along with the greats.

So I suppose the question is now am I an INTJ or an INFJ.

I've taken this test (Cognitive Function Test) a dozen different times in a dozen different ways, and the only time I got an answer other than Ni was when Ne won out by 1%. I suppose I felt like I was trying to force myself into some special category, and that my lack of whatever INJs are suppose to have was actually attributed to Inferior Te. But I believe if left alone, I would be much more organized and efficient.

 

[windoverlake]

So I suppose the question is now am I an INTJ or an INFJ.

I've taken this test (Cognitive Function Test) a dozen different times in a dozen different ways, and the only time I got an answer other than Ni was when Ne won out by 1%. I suppose I felt like I was trying to force myself into some special category, and that my lack of whatever INJs are suppose to have was actually attributed to Inferior Te. But I believe if left alone, I would be much more organized and efficient.

The celebtypes site is rife with mis-typings, so I'd tread skeptically. Also, the CF test is a good starting point, but self-study is really the key to sorting out your letters. Conversely, having the MBTI administered by a professional (you might be able to get this done at school with a career counselor).

That said, NF and NT are quite different; which archetype fits you best?

What's your novel about?

I still think INTJ, esp. now that I've seen both youtube links you've posted. INFJ still possible.

 

[Nasalaley]

What's your novel about?

I haven't worked it out yet, and I won't have anything to publish for many years. Despite what is usually said, I'd rather develop the themes first and work from there.

The celebtypes site is rife with mis-typings, so I'd tread skeptically.

Yeah, I've seen them move Selena Gomez from ESFJ to ISFJ back to ESFJ again in the course of 24 hours. I've seen them move Franz Kafka from INTP to INFP and Jane Austin from INTJ to INTP. They had an article titled "Why Eminem is ISFP" which they removed because they reluctantly moved him to ISTP. And don't get me started on Woodrow Wilson. Holy Shit. I know part of typing is revision, but how can you posts quotes to support your theory and still fuck up an Fi dom with a Ti dom?

Anyway, I just like that they're a tad more practical in their typing methods and so I assume they're right 70% of the time. However, this idea that Fi "sees good and bad" while Fe "sees shades of Grey" doesn't hold up when you consider they typed George RR "purveyor of grey characters" Martin as INFP, it's trash. That's what has me going between Fe-Ti and Fi-Te, and the fact that many years ago I explored social niceties. On another note, I avoid conflict when possible, but such behaviors are not pure indicators of Cognitive function.

That said, NF and NT are quite different; which archetype fits you best?

Well, I'd say I was an idealist as a kid, but I suppose it's truer to say that after a little experience in dealing with people, I'm much more inclined to NT. Despite what I might be feeling at the moment, I probably don't hate people. Truth is they just annoy me and I don't like dealing with strangers and avoid it when possible.

INTJ makes sense as according to the guy in my Life Story post:

You are not an SP. You are not SJ. You just aren't.

You sound most like an INTJ, to me. You don't have inferior Te, you have auxiliary Te. You are demonstrating tertiary Fi in telling us your life story. Also, in typing yourself you are playing tic-tac-toe against yourself; always you cannot trust yourself because you might be unconsciously biased and so on; this kind of awareness of your lack of ability to adequately explain yourself and the subsequent effort to use your head to deconstruct emotions is a very INTJ characteristic.

All through this story is an effort to impose logical explanations on your motivations for acting; at the same time it gets away from you; you realize that you actually don't know, so you provide 'it could be this or this or this' as the best substitute for an actual cause-and-effect explanation. Because you want cause-and-effect; you want to explain and deconstruct yourself rather than to experience the emotion and thus to directly know that way.

In your description of yourself you are always striving to get to the outside factual objective description; hence you use language that many would consider very harsh about yourself because you see it as the truth; you probably are more negative than you actually believe because you have probably observed that your opinion about these things fluctuates; you've tried to compensate for this by taking a more negative view over a more positive view because you've probably decided that the probabilities are on the side of the more negative view, although of course you can't actually know for sure . . .

You need to get out of your head; quit playing tic-tac-toe. Just in terms of advice, you didn't ask for it but I'll give it. You are seeking to impose order and rules upon Fi and your broader life. You seem to be trying to use Te to drag Fi out into the light so it can be deconstructed. That's pointless and depressing. The better strategy is to use Te to impose some order to your external world; Fi will naturally fall into line behind it. Just don't think of Fi, of the meaning of your experience. Instead, get out there and organize something meant to be organized!

" I’m afraid that my whole life will be spent here, and yes I can find a job, save money and leave, but I just can’t. (Plus I’m stuck going for my B.A.)"

You can. You are just not doing it. You are paralyzed with indecision, and are eating yourself up. Go work at Wal-Mart if nothing else. Seriously, you are a capable person who needs a good push into something productive.

The INTJ's weaknesses are Fi and Se. Read the Socionics description of INTJ (ILI in their conversion system) and see if it isn't you. Socionics is basically the negative version of MBTI; you might not identify with MBTI INTJ because it is way too positive for what the average INTJ is doing in life.

Socionics Types: ILI-INTp

Sorry for the long response; I'm actually only 60% sure of this typing, but it could be right. Give it a look.

I just have to accept that there will be doubt and tomorrow is not today.

 

[windoverlake]

I haven't worked it out yet, and I won't have anything to publish for many years. Despite what is usually said, I'd rather develop the themes first and work from there.

The holistic approach.

Yeah, I've seen them move Selena Gomez from ESFJ to ISFJ back to ESFJ again in the course of 24 hours. I've seen them move Franz Kafka from INTP to INFP and Jane Austin from INTJ to INTP. They had an article titled "Why Eminem is ISFP" which they removed because they reluctantly moved him to ISTP. And don't get me started on Woodrow Wilson. Holy Shit. I know part of typing is revision, but how can you posts quotes to support your theory and still fuck up an Fi dom with a Ti dom?

Anyway, I just like that they're a tad more practical in their typing methods and so I assume they're right 70% of the time. However, this idea that Fi "sees good and bad" while Fe "sees shades of Grey" doesn't hold up when you consider they typed George RR "purveyor of grey characters" Martin as INFP, it's trash. That's what has me going between Fe-Ti and Fi-Te, and the fact that many years ago I explored social niceties. On another note, I avoid conflict when possible, but such behaviors are not pure indicators of Cognitive function.

Everyone uses all of the functions at some point; dissect someone closely enough and you'll find evidence for each CF, because we are capable of developing and using them all. It's too disorienting to get that close up to it. That's why it helps to step back and take a general view: NT or NF? Find a holistic pattern and seek motivation and preference. Most people, most of the time, for the most part, can be pigeon-holed. Of course, after you get the overview, move in closer to confirm or amend your original diagnosis. This is why self-study is important, and also why self-study requires a healthy detachment from egoic concerns. There are people who are into typing for varying purposes, but that's a lot of people and a natural part of working through immaturity.

There's nothing quite so joyous as being one's true self, knowing it, and accepting it fully.

I'd step away from relying on celebtypes, because that's the blind leading the blind. Stick to self-study and skeptical research. It's good to be a snob when it comes to information; vet the source, be picky. I've also noticed a lot of poeple will have typed as various other types in the past, which is an indicator that self-study is a process.

Well, I'd say I was an idealist as a kid, but I suppose it's truer to say that after a little experience in dealing with people, I'm much more inclined to NT. Despite what I might be feeling at the moment, I probably don't hate people. Truth is they just annoy me and I don't like dealing with strangers and avoid it when possible.

One can often tell the difference between INTJ and INFJ by voice inflection, or lack thereof. Also, for the most part, INFJs have mobile faces while INTJs are more deadpan, both in voice and facial expression. Subtypes can alter this by degree, but usually it's still pretty obvious once you put an INTJ and INFJ side by side.