• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

4w5 so/sp or 5w4 so/sp?

mintleaf

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
505
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp
I've considered every single instinctual stacking, and so/sp was actually the last one I considered. I'm pretty confident that it's my type, though. I've tested most often as social-first, and I'm definitely sx-last; and I definitely relate to self-pres in a more abstract than literal way, which is apparently typical for your second variant.

The main thing that makes me doubt 5: I don't know that I avoid emotional overwhelm. I am an emotional masochist, to some degree. As a kid, I'd intentionally make myself sad for the emotional release (...not much anymore, though). And I'm definitely a Jungian Feeler / Ethical type in Socionics.

What makes me doubt 4: I don't come across at all like a 4 irl. A couple family members recently discovered enneagram and asked if I was a 5. I don't relate very strongly to social-4 descriptions (I do to sp-4). I used to have severe social anxiety, but it's not that I feel essentially inferior -- I don't have low self-esteem -- it's that I've always felt insecure in my ability to connect with other people. While I've never related to the Thinker archetype, the Observer fits extremely well. Participation is really hard for me; nothing feels more unnatural than opening up.

What do you think?
 

blahblahbob

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
127
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
5w4
I've considered every single instinctual stacking, and so/sp was actually the last one I considered. I'm pretty confident that it's my type, though. I've tested most often as social-first, and I'm definitely sx-last; and I definitely relate to self-pres in a more abstract than literal way, which is apparently typical for your second variant.

The main thing that makes me doubt 5: I don't know that I avoid emotional overwhelm. I am an emotional masochist, to some degree. As a kid, I'd intentionally make myself sad for the emotional release (...not much anymore, though). And I'm definitely a Jungian Feeler / Ethical type in Socionics.

What makes me doubt 4: I don't come across at all like a 4 irl. A couple family members recently discovered enneagram and asked if I was a 5. I don't relate very strongly to social-4 descriptions (I do to sp-4). I used to have severe social anxiety, but it's not that I feel essentially inferior -- I don't have low self-esteem -- it's that I've always felt insecure in my ability to connect with other people. While I've never related to the Thinker archetype, the Observer fits extremely well. Participation is really hard for me; nothing feels more unnatural than opening up.

What do you think?

so is far less 5 than 4.
 

mintleaf

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
505
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp
[MENTION=23730]blahblahbob[/MENTION] sorry, I misread your post as "so far, less 5 than 4" -- but I'm assuming you meant that the social instinct is far less 5 than 4. if that, then yeah, I know.
 

blahblahbob

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
127
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
5w4
what do you see as the key differences between an infp 5 and an infp 4?

4 seems more SO
5 seems more SP

I'm not really sure as I'm no expert on the enneagram archetypes. I'm strongly curiosity driven and like learning new things so when 5w4 came up after taking a test it felt very very right. I don't feel like I relate to some of the ways the 4's think. When I was a little kid I would spend hours just taking apart old junky machines of different kinds and looking at how all the parts fit together. I started goofing around with BASIC programming at like 8.

The one thing that made me sure "5" is right is that I've always been very very curious about things.
 

mintleaf

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
505
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp
4 seems more SO
5 seems more SP

I'm not really sure as I'm no expert on the enneagram archetypes. I'm strongly curiosity driven and like learning new things so when 5w4 came up after taking a test it felt very very right. I don't feel like I relate to some of the ways the 4's think. When I was a little kid I would spend hours just taking apart old junky machines of different kinds and looking at how all the parts fit together. I started goofing around with BASIC programming at like 8.

The one thing that made me sure "5" is right is that I've always been very very curious about things.

I thought I was sp/so for a while... I've always been very very curious about people. :unsure: thanks for your input.
 

blahblahbob

New member
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
127
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
5w4
I thought I was sp/so for a while... I've always been very very curious about people. :unsure: thanks for your input.

I've always felt like a freak: I was a choir boy in high school who loved literature and did extremely well at math and decently at science and never felt more useful than when someone felt like they needed a very non-judgmental shoulder to cry on and give them hugs. So I straddled the "right and left brain functions" really well.
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
2,910
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
[MENTION=17424]decrescendo[/MENTION] I'm a INFP 4w5 So/Sp and everything you've said is true of me.
 

mintleaf

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
505
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp
[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] So you don't relate much to social 4 descriptions either? I relate a lot to Oceanmoonshine's so/sp 4, except for the part about how they "tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging." Maybe I'm in denial, though.
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
2,910
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] So you don't relate much to social 4 descriptions either? I relate a lot to Oceanmoonshine's so/sp 4, except for the part about how they "tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging." Maybe I'm in denial, though.
I think instinctual variant descriptions tend to be a bit patchy in general. Even with the good ones, there's usually at least one or two things that people of that type would disagree with. You can get brilliant insights mixed in with rubbish. The oceanmoonshine ones are pretty good for the individual types. The "not quite belonging" thing is relatively important for Social 4s. It could be that the wording is just putting you off or maybe you're another type (like 4 Sp/So or some 5 stacking).

Here's some other decent descriptions. Together they cover a lot of the different aspects:

Type 4: The Romantic

Social: Shame/Honor – The Critical Commentator

Feelings of deficiency can be provoked by social situations, with envy directed toward other people’s status or appearance of belonging. This subtype seeks to establish an acceptable social role, possibly as the emotional truth-teller for the group, and often feels a need to resolve the tension between the quest for individual authenticity and social expectations.

Style Four Subtypes

Social (Shame):


The shyest of the subtypes, Social Fours develop mechanisms to call negative attention to themselves. Feelings of shame arise from feeling unworthy. A passion for being “in,” wanting to be included, to receive favors, but feeling “I’m nothing,” “I’m ugly,” “I’m silly.” A sense of not meeting the standards others are capable of meeting. Shame disguised by image of “being above the common throng.”

At best empathic, authentic, appreciative, help others see outside the box
At worst too strong a desire to be with the "in crowd," too self-effacing, shy

Social Fours:

Nicknames: The social commentator, The critic, Designer architect, The refined person, The “Rebel with out a cause,” Alienated idealist, the Truth teller, Public roles that require critiquing, The animal rights activist, The quibbler, The ugly duckling that wants to be the swan and really learns that they are the swan, The social and alienated elitist.

Social (Des. 1)- Social Fours are most characterized by a feeling of shame. They like to think of themselves as completely unique and one-of-a-kind, and can alternate between feeling socially inept and disdainful of others. They are somewhat more socially engaged than the other two variants of Fours, often by adopting "personas" of some sort that they know are idealized versions of themselves. They also identify with alternative groups that in one way or another reinforce their outsider status. However, they can be easily overwhelmed socially and withdraw for long periods of time. Unhealthy social fours are extremely self-conscious and can have trouble with even the most casual human encounters.

Social (Des. 5): I can describe them this way: They're kind of like the outsiders who wished they fit in. Not the "F you" outsiders, but the "I wanna join but I'm not good enough" outsiders. They wished they possessed all the qualities of 'regular' people (which they feel they lack) so that they can do what they really want to do: participate in society. This is why they're kinda hard to notice, since they're usually innocuous and not all that attention-seeking. To acquaintances they're pretty friendly and generally try to please, but they can get kinda holier-than-thou and reactive with people they know well, esp. when it has something to do with how they are perceived by others. If you challenge their image of themselves they just FLIP OUT royally and will have a hell of a time trusting you. They are VERY aware of social norms and deliberately try to 'stand out' and kinda "wait around" for someone to notice them. They're not very likely to do stuff to get 'any' kind of attention, just 'worthy' attention. Like they're not going to start a fit to get ANYONE's sympathy, they usually direct their acting towards certain individuals/groups. To others they just try their best to act normal so that no one notices that they're not.

Social Fours: "Shame"
Shame, as we use it here, means embarrassment, humiliation, and lack of self-respect.

  • I feel ashamed of not measuring up to my vision of the ideal: not being bright or creative enough, not contributing to humanity, or not having a fulfilling relationship.
  • I die over each mistake or faux pas I make.
  • I often feel inadequate socially and either try to pour on charm and confidence or blend into the woodwork.
  • I'm always analyzing myself: Did I make myself understood? Did I sound stupid? Was I too aggressive? Was I too conciliatory?
  • I have dreams of achieving tremendous status and recognition in order to get revenge on those who have put me down or laughed at me.
  • I am very sensitive to being shamed or slighted. It devastates me to be excluded from a gathering or event that acquaintances or friends are attending.
  • Sometimes I say things against myself to try to deflect envy.
  • I feel less awkward when I fill a definite position in the group by demonstrating that I'm an authority on something or by making a strong statement about who I am by the way I dress.
 

mintleaf

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
505
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp
So, I went through Ocean Moonshine's general 5 description and copied the sections I strongly identified with. I'd say the bolded sections are key aspects of my personality. I'm thinking it's pretty likely I'm a 5 ?

"Some Fives prefer to keep their theorizing to their private lives, while making a living doing something that requires little intellectual energy. Such Fives can be recognized by their need for privacy, their focus on competency, and their attitude of restrained indifference to authorities and to the rules and procedures of the workplace."

"Others in the Five’s life often recognize, if only on an intuitive level, that some part of the Five is not quite present. It is that part which Fives reserve for themselves and perhaps share with a very few others. For most Fives, a great deal is kept in reserve."

"Fives are frequently uncomfortable in the social realm. Part of this stems from the Five’s eccentricity, which in turn stems from the fact that Fives spend so much time in the realm of thought."

"tend to have permeable ego boundaries and often sense the unspoken thoughts and unexpressed feelings of those in their environments. These tend to feel invasive to Fives, who characteristically withdraw in order to protect their boundaries."

"Perhaps Rilke, a Five himself, more than anyone else, expressed the ideal form of relationship for a type Five individual: ‘Once the realization is accepted that even between the closest human beings infinite distances continue, a wonderful living side by side can grow, if they succeed in loving the distance between them which makes it possible for each to see the other whole against the sky.’"

"often find themselves processing their emotions later, in the privacy of their rooms"

"As Fives fear being intruded upon themselves, they likewise fear intruding on others. And, finally, as Fives can generally sense what is going on beneath the surface with others, they tend to expect the same in return. Words and overt expressions of emotion almost feel ‘too much.’”

"Fives don’t tend to think of themselves as being unemotional and are often surprised when they realize just what a disjunct there is between their own perception of themselves and the perceptions that others have of them. This frequently exacerbates the Five’s feelings of alienation and adds to their sense that human relationships are somehow essentially flawed. (Jean-Paul Sartre, for instance, a classic type Five, considered human relationships to be that from which one could neither escape nor find true satisfaction; there was thus “no exit.”)"

"Fives tend to withhold themselves from others, from emotional involvement and sometimes from life itself. There are many Fives who have accumulated a vast wealth of knowledge, which they never share with anyone; in this way, their characteristic ‘gold’ never benefits the world from which Fives typically feel so alienated. And there are many more Fives who only share their knowledge, who never truly share the depth or uniqueness of their being even in the context of their closest personal relationships. Their fear gets in the way."​
 

Daydreaming Swan

New member
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Messages
58
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
From Oceanmoonshine.net:

4 so/sp

This subtype can mimic type One when it comes to social values. They can be harsh critics of the current mores. They have romantic ideals of what the world should be like; reality always falls short. Ironically, this type can be the most withdrawn of the Fours. Social anxiety combines with the Four’s shame issues to make this type feel that the pressure associated with “fitting in” is just not worth it. They are also the most likely of the Fours to intellectualize their emotions and in this way resemble type Five.

The social instinct tends to give the personality a focus on being included, fitting in, or finding a way to make a valued contribution. This agenda conflicts with the Four’s sense of being “different from” or “other than.” The Four’s need to establish a separate identity conflicts with the social instinct’s drive towards inclusion. The social Four often deals with this dilemma by defining themselves as being outside the social system. By defining themselves always in terms of the system, even if it is to establish distance, this Four stays essentially tied to it. Fours with the social/self-pres stacking tend to acutely feel a sense of social shame at not quite belonging.

When this subtype is reasonably healthy, they are often gifted critics of the prevailing culture. They develop true insight into social dynamics and have an eye for the nuances and subtleties of social interactions. Many Four writers are so/sp.

5 so/sp

Because the social instinct is dominant, these Fives are much more aware of their role in the group. They are therefore more careful of their involvements with others. The social arena is more important and is invested with more energy, so these Fives will pull up faster and harder into self-pres mode if they should feel at all threatened. This will sometimes give others the impression of coldness. This subtype will center a lot of their intellectual interest around the workings of society, humanity or spirituality. This serves as their connection with people. By means of these abstract mental constructs, Fives of this subtype feel a sense of belonging socially, without having to be personally involved and invested. The healthier people of this subtype are, the more they are able to integrate their mental constructs with their actual experiences. They can really be content to adopt the role of “people watcher,” but they do it from a closer and closer perspective. Their blind spot revolves around the fact that they tend to convince themselves they can get along just fine in the observer role. It does feel safer to them. If they do have a few people relatively close to them, they can really strike a good balance between their need to withdraw and their need to connect to the larger social world.

This subtype could be seen as the most intellectual of type Five. The combination of the basic desire for knowing with the social instinct’s need to “fit in,” makes people of this subtype want to find a niche as the expert. Their interest in structure, especially social structure, accentuates their natural inclination for acquiring knowledge. With the sexual instinct least developed, this subtype is in the position of having a strong pull towards understanding the workings of the world around them, without the emotional intensity of the sexual instinct setting up any distraction. These Fives fit the role of the scientist or professor quite well in this respect.
 
Top