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Please help me! (ISFJ or INFJ)

Rhonorix

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Dec 19, 2014
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6w5
First of all, hello to everyone -- I recently joined this forum and it's the very first forum I have ever been a part of, so I'm sorry if I'm a total noob!

Anyway, here is my main issue. I had a girlfriend a few years ago that brought me deeper into the subject of psychology. Unfortunately, we broke up before I had the opportunity to ask all the questions I had about the whole new idea of "personality types".. And since then I have been endlessly stuck between INFJ and ISFJ.

I understand most of what their differences are ... In fact, I decided to dive into the subject again three days ago when I realized I hadn't found the answer when I was a lot younger. I got closer this time -- except for this one tiny detail: abstract and tangible. What exactly even is that? Regardless of how much I research and try to come up with the answer on my own, I'm not sure how to find out how .. Or what.

I'm sorry that this is so long -- I was very anxious and unsure about even joining. But I am endlessly curios about my type and I really just exhausted all the other possibilities and ways.

Thank you! ^.^

[Edit]
I'm also really confused about the memory thing ISFJ has -- my memory is really bad. Like, so bad I forget I've watched a certain movie or met a certain person. But I do remember a lot of intense moments too, but doesn't everyone? Is there a specific kind of "memory" that ISFJ has? -- or better yet, can an ISFJ have a bad memory?
 

thoughtlost

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No, Introverted Sensing isn't about having good memory.

Here is a description about Introverted Sensing; you'll need to click on the spoiler link to open the passage:

 

Mal12345

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That was a long "spoiler" tag essay.

Introverted Sensing is a feeling-tone that accompanies thoughts and images from the unconscious mind, but which were aroused by concrete events. The thought and/or image is then substituted for the concrete event such that the two are then perceived as equivalent in the mind of the Introverted Sensor. Things that bring up a feeling-tone of fear in the Introverted Sensors mind are to be objectively feared, even if nobody else feels the same way. The Introverted Sensor then subconsciously projects traits upon the object which help "explain" the fear to the conscious mind. The same could be said of the feeling-tone of love or hate.

Introvert Intuition is much the same as Introverted Sensing, only the subconscious content differs in quality. The subconscious of the Introverted Intuitive does not react to objects so much as to concepts and ideas, philosophies and religions. But as with the Introverted Sensor, the feeling-tone that results is of a black-and-white nature: concepts (instead of things) are automatically considered to be worthy of love or hate, fear, and other passions of the soul, even including a vast indifference toward certain ideas. The feelings run deep, and as with the Introverted Sensor the type is accompanied with the idea of being sui generis, one of a kind. But the Ni type is very concerned with the idea of individualism, both personally and on a world-wide scale. And although their ideas are clearly subjective, both types claim to have an objective basis for their beliefs.
 

Unionruler

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[Edit]
I'm also really confused about the memory thing ISFJ has -- my memory is really bad. Like, so bad I forget I've watched a certain movie or met a certain person. But I do remember a lot of intense moments too, but doesn't everyone? Is there a specific kind of "memory" that ISFJ has? -- or better yet, can an ISFJ have a bad memory?
Sorry I'm not really clear what you were asking in the main chunk of text but I'll answer this segment from my POV in layman terms.

ISFJs have very good people memory, we can store away experiences, and particularly snapshots of moments which may be innocuous (like what you were wearing, how you laugh/frown etc.) or significant (if you violated/demonstrated a value of ours).

Other than that I have very good memories for specific things. Chinese, muscle memory for playing piano, regulations...but notably I don't have good general memory so I can't brute force memorize stuff for exams as well as other Asian Chinese kids.
 

Rhonorix

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Introverted Sensing is a feeling-tone that accompanies thoughts and images from the unconscious mind, but which were aroused by concrete events. The thought and/or image is then substituted for the concrete event such that the two are then perceived as equivalent in the mind of the Introverted Sensor. Things that bring up a feeling-tone of fear in the Introverted Sensors mind are to be objectively feared, even if nobody else feels the same way. The Introverted Sensor then subconsciously projects traits upon the object which help "explain" the fear to the conscious mind. The same could be said of the feeling-tone of love or hate.

Introvert Intuition is much the same as Introverted Sensing, only the subconscious content differs in quality. The subconscious of the Introverted Intuitive does not react to objects so much as to concepts and ideas, philosophies and religions. But as with the Introverted Sensor, the feeling-tone that results is of a black-and-white nature: concepts (instead of things) are automatically considered to be worthy of love or hate, fear, and other passions of the soul, even including a vast indifference toward certain ideas. The feelings run deep, and as with the Introverted Sensor the type is accompanied with the idea of being sui generis, one of a kind. But the Ni type is very concerned with the idea of individualism, both personally and on a world-wide scale. And although their ideas are clearly subjective, both types claim to have an objective basis for their beliefs.

Okay, since this is my last shot at figuring this whole deal out before I just give up, I'm gonna do my best... My first language isn't english, I'm fluent and understand it because I lived in USA for the most part, but things like the long spoiler tag thing can get confusing to me (or maybe I'm just really 'slow' and it has nothing to do with the language). I'd much rather you explain in metaphors! What I understood is that Introvert Sensing is more likely to feel deep emotions such as fear towards an object, and Introvert Intuition would fear an idea more? As in, the idea of God punishing me for a sin because of my religion can cause an emotional response stronger than the image of a man running at me with a knife? -- I'm almost 100% sure I misinterpret what you meant -- I've been doing so much research on this subject that I feel my brain turned to mush. :(
 

Rhonorix

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Sorry I'm not really clear what you were asking in the main chunk of text but I'll answer this segment from my POV in layman terms.

ISFJs have very good people memory, we can store away experiences, and particularly snapshots of moments which may be innocuous (like what you were wearing, how you laugh/frown etc.) or significant (if you violated/demonstrated a value of ours).

Other than that I have very good memories for specific things. Chinese, muscle memory for playing piano, regulations...but notably I don't have good general memory so I can't brute force memorize stuff for exams as well as other Asian Chinese kids.


I'm having a hard time explaining what is confusing me about this because I'm not even sure where to start :( But you did help me clear up a lot about what they meant with them having a good memory!! :wubbie:
 

Mal12345

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Okay, since this is my last shot at figuring this whole deal out before I just give up, I'm gonna do my best... My first language isn't english, I'm fluent and understand it because I lived in USA for the most part, but things like the long spoiler tag thing can get confusing to me (or maybe I'm just really 'slow' and it has nothing to do with the language). I'd much rather you explain in metaphors! What I understood is that Introvert Sensing is more likely to feel deep emotions such as fear towards an object, and Introvert Intuition would fear an idea more? As in, the idea of God punishing me for a sin because of my religion can cause an emotional response stronger than the image of a man running at me with a knife? -- I'm almost 100% sure I misinterpret what you meant -- I've been doing so much research on this subject that I feel my brain turned to mush. :(

Ni is more influenced by abstract concepts and principles than by reality because the latter (reality) fades into relative unimportance. The idea of God punishing me for a sin is too literal to be an intuition. Perhaps I should have used the word "abstraction." Another good word is "worldly." Ni will be more interested in religion as a general abstract concept, and will think about it in terms of religions world-wide rather than specific religions.

Si is more influenced by concepts of literal things rather than abstractions. Si may become interested in abstractions but only to the extent that they further their specific real-world goals. Si is not interested in world-wide religions or religion in general but only in particular religions, particularly their own. You may get the impression from an Si type that their religion is "good" while other religions are "evil," although such black-and-white thinking may not be obvious to others because they tend to keep it to themselves.
 

Rhonorix

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Ni is more influenced by abstract concepts and principles than by reality because the latter (reality) fades into relative unimportance. The idea of God punishing me for a sin is too literal to be an intuition. Perhaps I should have used the word "abstraction." Another good word is "worldly." Ni will be more interested in religion as a general abstract concept, and will think about it in terms of religions world-wide rather than specific religions.

Si is more influenced by concepts of literal things rather than abstractions. Si may become interested in abstractions but only to the extent that they further their specific real-world goals. Si is not interested in world-wide religions or religion in general but only in particular religions, particularly their own. You may get the impression from an Si type that their religion is "good" while other religions are "evil," although such black-and-white thinking may not be obvious to others because they tend to keep it to themselves.


Okay, now this is exactly the problem ^ using that example, I'm going to explain to you what I remember I did and let you decide whether it was Ni or Si. When I began searching and learning about religion I chose only a few to start wth, which were Judaism, Buddhism and Islam. I wanted to understand their differences were and learn exactly what the religions even believed in and followed, etc.. In fact, I usually study about specifics, like how I began studying about the personality types and the temperaments. That suggests I'm a Si, right? Because I would rather become somewhat of an "expert" in certain subjects? Like what happened during WW2 in each side of it? -- though, you said Si is only interested in their own religion (mostly)? And what if I DON'T assume mine is right and theirs is wrong? I usually research because I want new points of view to consider -- in fact, if I knew someone who liked discussing these subjects, I'd spend my entire day talking about everything as in depth as I can.
 

highlander

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That was a long "spoiler" tag essay.

Introverted Sensing is a feeling-tone that accompanies thoughts and images from the unconscious mind, but which were aroused by concrete events. The thought and/or image is then substituted for the concrete event such that the two are then perceived as equivalent in the mind of the Introverted Sensor. Things that bring up a feeling-tone of fear in the Introverted Sensors mind are to be objectively feared, even if nobody else feels the same way. The Introverted Sensor then subconsciously projects traits upon the object which help "explain" the fear to the conscious mind. The same could be said of the feeling-tone of love or hate.

Introvert Intuition is much the same as Introverted Sensing, only the subconscious content differs in quality. The subconscious of the Introverted Intuitive does not react to objects so much as to concepts and ideas, philosophies and religions. But as with the Introverted Sensor, the feeling-tone that results is of a black-and-white nature: concepts (instead of things) are automatically considered to be worthy of love or hate, fear, and other passions of the soul, even including a vast indifference toward certain ideas. The feelings run deep, and as with the Introverted Sensor the type is accompanied with the idea of being sui generis, one of a kind. But the Ni type is very concerned with the idea of individualism, both personally and on a world-wide scale. And although their ideas are clearly subjective, both types claim to have an objective basis for their beliefs.

Wut? You trying to confuse her/him?

First of all, hello to everyone -- I recently joined this forum and it's the very first forum I have ever been a part of, so I'm sorry if I'm a total noob!

Anyway, here is my main issue. I had a girlfriend a few years ago that brought me deeper into the subject of psychology. Unfortunately, we broke up before I had the opportunity to ask all the questions I had about the whole new idea of "personality types".. And since then I have been endlessly stuck between INFJ and ISFJ.

I understand most of what their differences are ... In fact, I decided to dive into the subject again three days ago when I realized I hadn't found the answer when I was a lot younger. I got closer this time -- except for this one tiny detail: abstract and tangible. What exactly even is that? Regardless of how much I research and try to come up with the answer on my own, I'm not sure how to find out how .. Or what.

I'm sorry that this is so long -- I was very anxious and unsure about even joining. But I am endlessly curios about my type and I really just exhausted all the other possibilities and ways.

Thank you! ^.^

[Edit]
I'm also really confused about the memory thing ISFJ has -- my memory is really bad. Like, so bad I forget I've watched a certain movie or met a certain person. But I do remember a lot of intense moments too, but doesn't everyone? Is there a specific kind of "memory" that ISFJ has? -- or better yet, can an ISFJ have a bad memory?

ISFJs and INFJs can look kind of similar from the outside but are very very different on the inside. An INFJ leads with introverted intuition and the ISFJ leads with introverted sensing. Both share extraverted feeling as an auxiiary function. It makes me realize we really need a clear description of each of the eight cognitive functions on the site. Think of it this way:

Introverted Sensing (Si) - perceptions derived from your personal subjective experiences in the past; you compare things now to your previous experience
• Verifying using personal memory
• Validating the actuality
• Reliving the emotions in sequence

Introverted Intuition (Ni) - perceptions derived from a collection of data points you cannot easily describe; like a metaperspective; more focused on what will happen in the future
• Knowing based on trusted insight
• Visualizing the essence
• Synthesizing the whole

This guy's videos are normally pretty good. Maybe it will help.

[video]http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/vbtube_show.php?tubeid=114[/video]
 

Rhonorix

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Wut? You trying to confuse her/him?



ISFJs and INFJs can look kind of similar from the outside but are very very different on the inside. An INFJ leads with introverted intuition and the ISFJ leads with introverted sensing. Both share extraverted feeling as an auxiiary function. It makes me realize we really need a clear description of each of the eight cognitive functions on the site. Think of it this way:

Introverted Sensing (Si) - perceptions derived from your personal subjective experiences in the past; you compare things now to your previous experience
• Verifying using personal memory
• Validating the actuality
• Reliving the emotions in sequence

Introverted Intuition (Ni) - perceptions derived from a collection of data points you cannot easily describe; like a metaperspective; more focused on what will happen in the future
• Knowing based on trusted insight
• Visualizing the essence
• Synthesizing the whole

This guy's videos are normally pretty good. Maybe it will help.

[video]http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/vbtube_show.php?tubeid=114[/video]

That was the perfect example and explanation -- even with images and metaphors and whatnot. I pretty much immediately knew I was ISFJ when he explained the whole "zooming in" part, because I had /just/ explained that it is what I do when I become interested in a subject .. Thank you so much, to all of you! You've finally brought peace to the subject that had been bothering me since I was about 14.. I finally know my type! ^.^ :wubbie::wubbie:
 

Mal12345

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Wut? You trying to confuse her/him?

The idea of individualism is the concept or principle of individualism. (See any philosophy of individualism.) But Ni and Si people are both sui generis in their own minds.
 

highlander

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The idea of individualism is the concept or principle of individualism. (See any philosophy of individualism.) But Ni and Si people are both sui generis in their own minds.

Not to criticize but I just don't know what you're talking about there. My mind is simple. :shrug:

I find sometimes that Ti doms get into details that seem obscure or incomprehensible to me. Maybe this is a common source of misunderstanding.
 

Samvega

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Not everybody will fit neatly into any single type so don't feel too much pressure to be one or the other. Also, honestly, pick a different type to be, like ESTP or something as IxFJs well, they're like the very last type I would pick for myself. I guess if you really have to choose, talk to some known IxFJ men, avoid the women, they're all insane and the males of those types tend to be far better balanced so as to render the female versions perception of said type unfit for the male versions consumption. The mixed INFJ dude on youtube eating while filming always seemed like a healthy INFJ dude.
 

Riva

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Not everybody will fit neatly into any single type so don't feel too much pressure to be one or the other. Also, honestly, pick a different type to be, like ESTP or something as IxFJs well, they're like the very last type I would pick for myself. I guess if you really have to choose, talk to some known IxFJ men, avoid the women, they're all insane and the males of those types tend to be far better balanced so as to render the female versions perception of said type unfit for the male versions consumption. The mixed INFJ dude on youtube eating while filming always seemed like a healthy INFJ dude.

I have experienced the exact opposite.
 

Rhonorix

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Not everybody will fit neatly into any single type so don't feel too much pressure to be one or the other. Also, honestly, pick a different type to be, like ESTP or something as IxFJs well, they're like the very last type I would pick for myself. I guess if you really have to choose, talk to some known IxFJ men, avoid the women, they're all insane and the males of those types tend to be far better balanced so as to render the female versions perception of said type unfit for the male versions consumption. The mixed INFJ dude on youtube eating while filming always seemed like a healthy INFJ dude.

I reread your post several times to make sure I had not misinterpreted what you said. I appreciate the advice, but choosing to be an ESTP wouldn't even make sense since I'm an introvert. In fact, I don't want to choose one myself because it's not who I really am, it could be who I want to be and I want the truth. Now, for the real reason I so quickly stopped watching the movie I was finishing to come and reply to you: I'm a woman. I'm 21 and I am definitely an IxFJ. I'm not even sure how to react to the incredibly ignorant sexist comment... So I'm just gonna shake my head and just drop the subject of what my type is. Oh man, it'd be amazing if you came back and said, "this was a test to see your reaction, and based on it, you're an IXFJ". But I've been looking for too long and, you know what? Who cares anyway. It wouldn't change a single thing if I was INFJ or ISFJ, I'd still be me and I'd still be pretty bored with life. In fact, researching taught me that these types have stereotypes and arguments over which ones are "better". You proved it right, people are ignorant and blind even over something so logical and supposedly 'unisex' or 'genderless'. But thanks anyway -- specially to the people who actually did help me get a clearer idea of what the difference between Ni and Si is.
 

Samvega

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I reread your post several times to make sure I had not misinterpreted what you said. I appreciate the advice, but choosing to be an ESTP wouldn't even make sense since I'm an introvert. In fact, I don't want to choose one myself because it's not who I really am, it could be who I want to be and I want the truth. Now, for the real reason I so quickly stopped watching the movie I was finishing to come and reply to you: I'm a woman. I'm 21 and I am definitely an IxFJ. I'm not even sure how to react to the incredibly ignorant sexist comment... So I'm just gonna shake my head and just drop the subject of what my type is. Oh man, it'd be amazing if you came back and said, "this was a test to see your reaction, and based on it, you're an IXFJ". But I've been looking for too long and, you know what? Who cares anyway. It wouldn't change a single thing if I was INFJ or ISFJ, I'd still be me and I'd still be pretty bored with life. In fact, researching taught me that these types have stereotypes and arguments over which ones are "better". You proved it right, people are ignorant and blind even over something so logical and supposedly 'unisex' or 'genderless'. But thanks anyway -- specially to the people who actually did help me get a clearer idea of what the difference between Ni and Si is.

Well, since you mentioned it, this reminds me of a normal interaction with my ex-wife who was an ISFJ, we had non-stop issues with her not getting my foolish humor and taking everything so personally, arrrggg, seemed exhausting to me. The reality is that type doesn't matter, just be the best you that you can be. If you're a RN or a school teacher, many ISFJs lean in that direction, INFJs tend to have more existential angst and confusion relating to careers.

There is humor in much of this, we're in a forum for a system meant to stereotype but in a way we're accepting of yet if I say something "sexist" that's an issue?

Also, I didn't make a "sexist" comment, you may want to look up the meaning of that word before you attempt to use it again. I'm actually talking about the reenforcing aspect society plays on the different negative/positive aspects of MBTI types based on gender, it does the same thing to female IxFJs as it does to male ExTPs. I'm in no way discriminating against an entire gender nor am I saying either is superior though I do think that secondary Fe comes close to qualifying as a disability after seeing some of the conclusions it jumps to.

As a side note, really if you use the word "sexist" you're a sexist as it's a sexist word in that it relates to a mans attitude or thinking towards a woman, sexist!
 

Thalassa

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Not everybody will fit neatly into any single type so don't feel too much pressure to be one or the other. Also, honestly, pick a different type to be, like ESTP or something as IxFJs well, they're like the very last type I would pick for myself. I guess if you really have to choose, talk to some known IxFJ men, avoid the women, they're all insane and the males of those types tend to be far better balanced so as to render the female versions perception of said type unfit for the male versions consumption. The mixed INFJ dude on youtube eating while filming always seemed like a healthy INFJ dude.

*mouth truly fucking agape*
 

Thalassa

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Well, since you mentioned it, this reminds me of a normal interaction with my ex-wife who was an ISFJ, we had non-stop issues with her not getting my foolish humor and taking everything so personally, arrrggg, seemed exhausting to me. The reality is that type doesn't matter, just be the best you that you can be. If you're a RN or a school teacher, many ISFJs lean in that direction, INFJs tend to have more existential angst and confusion relating to careers.

There is humor in much of this, we're in a forum for a system meant to stereotype but in a way we're accepting of yet if I say something "sexist" that's an issue?

Also, I didn't make a "sexist" comment, you may want to look up the meaning of that word before you attempt to use it again. I'm actually talking about the reenforcing aspect society plays on the different negative/positive aspects of MBTI types based on gender, it does the same thing to female IxFJs as it does to male ExTPs. I'm in no way discriminating against an entire gender nor am I saying either is superior though I do think that secondary Fe comes close to qualifying as a disability after seeing some of the conclusions it jumps to.

As a side note, really if you use the word "sexist" you're a sexist as it's a sexist word in that it relates to a mans attitude or thinking towards a woman, sexist!

Yes, what you said was in fact sexist, non sensical, and based on your own experience with your ex wife, presumably your functional opposite. You may have trouble with the opposite sex of your flipped function order, but to condemn all of the persons with vaginas with auxiliary Fe as having a disability is almost hysterical enough to revoke your NT card. It certainly wasn't objective, and how bizarre for you not to admit that it applies mainly to how you interact or respond to your anima.
 

Thalassa

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I reread your post several times to make sure I had not misinterpreted what you said. I appreciate the advice, but choosing to be an ESTP wouldn't even make sense since I'm an introvert. In fact, I don't want to choose one myself because it's not who I really am, it could be who I want to be and I want the truth. Now, for the real reason I so quickly stopped watching the movie I was finishing to come and reply to you: I'm a woman. I'm 21 and I am definitely an IxFJ. I'm not even sure how to react to the incredibly ignorant sexist comment... So I'm just gonna shake my head and just drop the subject of what my type is. Oh man, it'd be amazing if you came back and said, "this was a test to see your reaction, and based on it, you're an IXFJ". But I've been looking for too long and, you know what? Who cares anyway. It wouldn't change a single thing if I was INFJ or ISFJ, I'd still be me and I'd still be pretty bored with life. In fact, researching taught me that these types have stereotypes and arguments over which ones are "better". You proved it right, people are ignorant and blind even over something so logical and supposedly 'unisex' or 'genderless'. But thanks anyway -- specially to the people who actually did help me get a clearer idea of what the difference between Ni and Si is.

It's common in personality theory for a person to notice that they personally have issues with a certain type or types, often based in opposing or reversed function order, especially in regards to opposite gender roles. Most people, though, realize that the entire point of learning MBTI is to realize the subjectivity of many of these perceptions, based upon our own preferences and projection of anima or animus.

There definitely are some behaviors that seem exaggerated in types of a particular gender (such as young male NTs, or FJ females)...a lot of that I think is a combination of social conditioning and it's effect on the inherent personality type, and how it rubs ones inferior or shadow functions.

BUT it's definitely not to the degree that any one type is "insane" or disabled, each type has strength and weaknesses, and each type is better prepared than others to bear different gifts and flaws in others with varying levels of understanding. Also, any type can be unhealthy, or rather go through unhealthy periods because of xyz.

What he may have meant is that IXFJ males, because of the cultural tuning of Fe, may seem more balanced in terms of gender role, as having dom or aux Fe seems "feminine" but the very nature of Fe itself prompts them as men to try to take on certain masculine characteristics, especially SFJs. It in no way means that all FJ females are insane any more than all IxTJ males are permanent emotional cripples with mail order brides.
 

Samvega

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Yes, what you said was in fact sexist

You did take note that I applied the same thinking to ExTP males (of which I am) correct? So, if I'm applying how something impacts a gender and applying it equally to both genders, how is that sexist exactly? Have you looked at the meaning of the word? Would you be willing to quote what I said and a definition of "sexist" so that I can better understand what you're seeing that's sexist?

MBTI is functional for some things, for others it is not, for dating it isn't, for determining how smart a person is, again, it isn't helpful. It doesn't work for figuring out if you will feel a connection or chemistry, have good sex, lie, cheat, it doesn't work for determining if you'll be a good couple, do well in school, be a good driver. It's a good mirror to see areas that may be blind spots, it's useful to better understand how somebody else may see something, how their perspective may differ. I have learned there is little value in knowing I'm an ENTP, in fact, maybe more harm has come of it in the affirmation I once found for the areas I needed to grow. MBTI is great to learn, know, and read about the 15 types you are not.

Anyway, stereotypes will always be, I would type a 28 year old virgin, vegetarian with a cat as an INFP, tell me they ran the 100 meter in under 10 seconds and I would add that they're both a male and black, would that make me both sexist and racist? These are things that just apply more often than not so they're fair to deduce, they don't however always apply and there's a danger in thinking they will.
 
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