Vivisect Vasilisa: My head, heart, and gut

[Ginkgo]

Yeah I saw the 9 thing too. I could even see 9 over 4.

Vas seems artistic and idiosyncratic. I just feel like if Vas was a 4, she may possess a stronger drive to make her feelings manifest in a way that would clearly define who she believes she is in contrast with others. She makes a substantial impact on this forum, and she has that "unheard cry in the woods" thing going for her that's textbook Jungian Ni and 4-ish in some ways, and even though it seems to come from a very subjective, personal headspace, she seems altogether caught up in the object to the point where it doesn't really seem like the typical E4 self-analysis.

 

[Starry]

Vas seems artistic and idiosyncratic. I just feel like if Vas was a 4, she may possess a stronger drive to make her feelings manifest in a way that would clearly define who she believes she is in contrast with others. She makes a substantial impact on this forum, and she has that "unheard cry in the woods" thing going for her that's textbook Jungian Ni and 4-ish in some ways, and even though it seems to come from a very subjective, personal headspace, she seems altogether caught up in the object to the point where it doesn't really seem like the typical E4 self-analysis.

Ever since beginning a dialogue with the lovely senza about 9 I've been so interested in how 9 and 4...why 9 and 4 are like the photo negative of each other...and I'm trying to figure out why this would happen...these two points are kinda amazing to me really and I like what you say here...

 

[Starry]

Oh and [MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION]

while Vasilisa's avatar seems very Ni 4 to me...your avatar seems very 9w8 so you're getting retyped now haha




edit: I don't even know how many times I just had to edit this tiny post omfg

 

[Ginkgo]

Ever since beginning a dialogue with the lovely senza about 9 I've been so interested in how 9 and 4...why 9 and 4 are like the photo negative of each other...and I'm trying to figure out why this would happen...these two points are kinda amazing to me really and I like what you say here...

They're both withdrawn and they can look almost identical but there's a reason they're almost opposite of each other on the enneagram. They have reverse ways of dealing with idealism, realism, hope, and doubt. It's almost like the 9 acknowledges the way things are and finds a way of settling, where the 4 would deny the way things are and aim for an ideal. While I don't think that Vasilisa is just content with everything that transpires under her watch... There's a level of emotional stuffing I wouldn't expect from a 4.

 

[Zarathustra]

Ever since beginning a dialogue with the lovely senza about 9 I've been so interested in how 9 and 4...why 9 and 4 are like the photo negative of each other...and I'm trying to figure out why this would happen...these two points are kinda amazing to me really and I like what you say here...

4EI
9II

4 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Extrinsic Center
9 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Intrinsic Center
(the other Intrinsic Manifestation is e5)

So, yeah, it's because they're both Intrinsic Manifestations of their respective centers.

And I associate 4s so much with the Intrinsic Manifestation (and so do others, I believe), it's almost hard to remember they come from the Extrinsic Center. But then you remember that they are indeed Image-focused, in a way that 9s surely are not (at least, not just the 9 part of 9s [if they have a strong Image-fix, then that image focus will obviously manifest as well {via the image fix}]).

 

[Starry]

They're both withdrawn and they can look almost identical but there's a reason they're almost opposite of each other on the enneagram. They have reverse ways of dealing with idealism, realism, hope, and doubt. It's almost like the 9 acknowledges the way things are and finds a way of settling, where the 4 would deny the way things are and aim for an ideal. While I don't think that Vasilisa is just content with everything that transpires under her watch... There's a level of emotional stuffing I wouldn't expect from a 4.

4EI
9II

4 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Extrinsic Center
9 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Intrinsic Center
(the other Intrinsic Manifestation is e5)

So, yeah, it's because they're both Intrinsic Manifestations of their respective centers.

And I associate 4s so much with the Intrinsic Manifestation (and so do others, I believe), it's almost hard to remember they come from the Extrinsic Center. But then you remember that they are indeed Image-focused, in a way that 9s surely are not (at least, not just the 9 part of 9s [if they have a strong Image-fix, then that image focus will obviously manifest as well {via the image fix}]).

So interesting to me. Thank you. *absorbing this*

 

[Firebird 8118]

4EI
9II

4 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Extrinsic Center
9 is the Intrinsic Manifestation of the Intrinsic Center
(the other Intrinsic Manifestation is e5)

So, yeah, it's because they're both Intrinsic Manifestations of their respective centers.

And I associate 4s so much with the Intrinsic Manifestation (and so do others, I believe), it's almost hard to remember they come from the Extrinsic Center. But then you remember that they are indeed Image-focused, in a way that 9s surely are not (at least, not just the 9 part of 9s [if they have a strong Image-fix, then that image focus will obviously manifest as well {via the image fix}]).

Hmm... interesting points made. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Ginkgo]

Oh and [MENTION=8031]Ginkgo[/MENTION]

while Vasilisa's avatar seems very Ni 4 to me...your avatar seems very 9w8 so you're getting retyped now haha




edit: I don't even know how many times I just had to edit this tiny post omfg

Growing up, all the kids wanted to be nurses, firefighters, soldiers, policemen, and doctors.

And I just wanted to be Godzilla.

Is that too much to ask?!?!?!?!

 

[uumlau]

So interesting to me. Thank you. *absorbing this*

Also, this link: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/members/misid/4and9.asp#.U11oBvldWGU (requires registration, but is free, and I only occasionally get an email from them)

The principal reason these types may be confused is that they are both withdrawn types. (PT, 433-36). Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. Nines, on the other hand, are withdrawn in the sense that they remove their attention from people or situations that threaten them, disengaging themselves emotionally so that they will not be anxious or upset. They cut off their identification with others (or never identify with them in the first place), identifying instead with a private idealized version of reality. Average to unhealthy Nines tune out any unpleasantness by dissociating from whatever upsets them, whereas Fours do just the opposite, brooding over their anxieties in an attempt to come to terms with them. Fours are certainly not detached from their emotions–just the reverse, they are keenly aware of them, perhaps too much so.

Both types can therefore be shy, absent-minded, confused, and detached from the real world. The difference is that Nines are detached both from the external world and from their emotions, whereas Fours withdraw from whatever has caused them pain. (In the end, that may add up to quite a lot.) Nines see the world through rose-colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting, whereas Fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted: everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life.

In other words, 4s are kind of always undergoing an existential crisis. Their art is aimed in part at resolving these perceived issues. 9s are very much the opposite, in that their coping mechanism is to believe that everything is just fine, even (and especially) when it isn't. 4s can hide from their emotions just as much as 9s can, but they don't do it nearly so often. If a 4 is hiding from emotions, they're down in the very unhealthy levels; average and healthy 4s engage in their emotions fairly regularly.

4s tend to relish being different, while 9s focus on bridging the gaps between differences. Note one of the things Vas says makes her angry, namely people not making the effort to listen to her when she's saying something important. That's not a 4 concern, that's a 9 concern, especially when that's just about all she can come up with. 4s can find lots of things to be angry about. Even among the healthier types, there is a degree of envy, a degree of "the grass is always greener." 9s, on the other hand don't get worked up about very much at all. BUT, when a 9 has decided to expend energy on an issue, failing to resolve that issue is deeply frustrating (it's the reason they default to not getting worked up in the first place). Vas expressed her anger very much in this way.

But one might say, "Vas is looking for more typological input. Look at all those past links. This is clearly someone seeking to determine her own identity." Yes, type 4s tend to use typologies to help discover themselves and their identities, often relying upon them too strongly. I don't think that's the case, here. The video she links is from 2011, and she's looking for input on Enneagram. Here she is in 2014, still looking for input on Enneagram. There are two Enneagram types that tend to identify with multiple Enneagram descriptions, 9 and 6. *I* had issues with Enneagram until I realized that it wasn't typing personality, but neuroses, which made type 9 clear for me.

In the end, of course, it's for her to figure out. I much prefer to explain the basis of the typology and let people find themselves within that (clarified) framework, than tell them what their type is. There's no way Vas can convey her entire personality over the internet, but it's fairly easy to explain the typological criteria over the internet.

 

[Zarathustra]

*I* had issues with Enneagram until I realized that it wasn't typing personality, but neuroses, which made type 9 clear for me.

*thinks back to that thread oh so long ago in which he tried to convince uumlau that there is indeed value to the enneagram*

*sheds a tear*​

 

[five sounds]

i like 9 for you too [MENTION=9273]Vasilisa[/MENTION].

i just watched your video (you're so lovely) and i think INFJ 9w1 suits you very well. when you said coming to understanding was your aim rather than winning or losing, and how that was the one thing you identified as upsetting you most stuck out to me.

but i was thinking 9 even before i watched it. you have a very in-the-flow vibe.

another thing that kinda seemed 9 to me was when you were thinking about humanity, and the first thing you mentioned disliking was chaos or mayhem (i forget your word choices). you like peace. you're quiet and receptive and deeply feeling, and when something's not right, you sense it, and it upsets you to your core.

edit: 5 and 2 are my votes for your tritype. 5w4 2w1?

 

[uumlau]

On another note, if you are 935...(Si-Fe-Ti) you may then possibly be an ISFJ as well...

One-to-one mappings between Enneagram types and Jungian functions is mapping apples to oranges. If you have 15 apples and 15 oranges, that doesn't make apples the same as oranges. Yes, there are many personality aspects of type 9s that seem Si, but they tend to fit Ni and Fi rather well, too. Check out Z's chart from a while ago:



[Caveat on this data - type 9s are notably more rare in online forums such as these than as tested in real life, so these data are necessarily skewed by the population sample. Even so, it should be clear that the correlations are just that, correlations, and not arising from a common cause.]

In general, it's the IxFx type that identify as 9s, just as the ExxPs that tend to identify as 7s. Type 4 would appear to be Fi, as you say, but that doesn't explain why it's a top choice for INFJs. And type 6 would appear to be more of an Si type, as both Si doms have it as a top pick (though it would appear to be more of a "J" thing, than Si). The only one that is close is the type 5 with Ti association, as that's a fairly significant correlation, but even with type 5s, it would appear that it is more of an IxTx thing than a Ti thing.

The only things that are similar here are the personalities, not the typologies. The personalities are the results, the typologies are the means of arriving at the results.

One of the reasons I appreciate Enneagram now more than I did a while ago (thanks Z!) is that it's so completely orthogonal to MBTI. MBTI and cognitive functions have no bearing on neuroses, while Enneagram categorizes all sorts of varied coping mechanisms. That very orthogonality should give the lie to associating specific functions with specific Enneagram types.

 

[yeghor]

One-to-one mappings between Enneagram types and Jungian functions is mapping apples to oranges. If you have 15 apples and 15 oranges, that doesn't make apples the same as oranges. Yes, there are many personality aspects of type 9s that seem Si, but they tend to fit Ni and Fi rather well, too. Check out Z's chart from a while ago:

View attachment 11663

[Caveat on this data - type 9s are notably more rare in online forums such as these than as tested in real life, so these data are necessarily skewed by the population sample. Even so, it should be clear that the correlations are just that, correlations, and not arising from a common cause.]

In general, it's the IxFx type that identify as 9s, just as the ExxPs that tend to identify as 7s. Type 4 would appear to be Fi, as you say, but that doesn't explain why it's a top choice for INFJs. And type 6 would appear to be more of an Si type, as both Si doms have it as a top pick (though it would appear to be more of a "J" thing, than Si). The only one that is close is the type 5 with Ti association, as that's a fairly significant correlation, but even with type 5s, it would appear that it is more of an IxTx thing than a Ti thing.

The only things that are similar here are the personalities, not the typologies. The personalities are the results, the typologies are the means of arriving at the results.

One of the reasons I appreciate Enneagram now more than I did a while ago (thanks Z!) is that it's so completely orthogonal to MBTI. MBTI and cognitive functions have no bearing on neuroses, while Enneagram categorizes all sorts of varied coping mechanisms. That very orthogonality should give the lie to associating specific functions with specific Enneagram types.

How do you experience 9ness...? What's its primary trait? What's the underlying motivation...? I keep reading descriptions and it feels like 9 is an enabler and accommodator of people... A chameleon of some sorts that wants to blend into the background and be left at peace...Someone irritated by disturbance and chaos around himself\herself?

As for the chart data, if there's any overlap between INFJ and INFP core motivations as per mbti, that would explain the overlap... If there aren't any, then there must be something wrong in the wording of either of the tests that mislead enneagram 4s... One thing that comes to my mind is that IxFP's mirror image functionwise is ExFJ... Perhaps that's what causing the overlap?

 

[PeaceBaby]

*thinks back to that thread oh so long ago in which he tried to convince uumlau that there is indeed value to the enneagram*

*sheds a tear*​

*thinks back long ago when she helped Z find value in the enneagram*
*sheds two tears*

[Caveat on this data - type 9s are notably more rare in online forums such as these than as tested in real life, so these data are necessarily skewed by the population sample.

If you were to make a guess as to why, what reason(s) would you think?

 

[uumlau]

How do you experience 9ness...? What's its primary trait? What's the underlying motivation...? I keep reading descriptions and it feels like 9 is an enabler and accommodator of people... A chameleon of some sorts that wants to blend into the background and be left at peace...Someone irritated by disturbance and chaos around himself\herself?

It's a need for peace, to be free from anxiety by avoiding conflict - or more aptly avoiding confrontation. The problem as a coping mechanism is that one necessarily develops a very keen skill for avoiding any sort of confrontation, even with oneself. While all Enneagram types practice some degree of lack of self-awareness, the 9 is explicitly unselfaware. Why? Because being aware means knowing what you want, which is good, and all of the reasons you cannot have it, which hurts like hell.

It might help to explain this in my personal INTJ 9 terms. My 9-ish-ness comes out more in my personal relationships than my work relationships. The typical 9 just goes along to get along, without really being aware of choices and consequences. As an INTJ, while this might apply for personal relationships, in a work environment, my job requires me to be very aware of the consequences of choices. For the most part, as I'm still a 9, if others have druthers that really don't matter ("I want the button to be pink." "No no no, the button should be blue, as that's our standard."), I just let others fight over it. But if I see bad architectural implications, I speak up, because I know that while I might avoid a conflict now, the future implications will give me a much greater headache. In those cases, I clearly speak up and stand my ground, precisely because I am aware.

On the positive side, this means that I can come across as a very healthy 9, especially in work situations, because I avoid all unnecessary fights while still standing up for my personal vision of how things fit together. In particular, it becomes clear to others that my vision includes everyone's input, because I know that they can see things I cannot, so it's really a cooperative team effort.

In my personal life, however, it is much easier for me to let people run all over me, especially if I love them very much. It's entirely possible for me to be deliriously happy, as I very much treasure that personal connection with the other person, and unconsciously miserable because more and more of my needs aren't being met.

As for the chart data, if there's any overlap between INFJ and INFP core motivations as per mbti, that would explain the overlap... If there aren't any, then there must be something wrong in the wording of either of the tests that mislead enneagram 4s... One thing that comes to my mind is that IxFP's mirror image functionwise is ExFJ... Perhaps that's what causing the overlap?

There is no "cause". There is only coincidence. There are 15 oranges because that's what the count comes out to be. There are fifteen apples because that's what the count comes out to be. The apple count does not influence the orange count.

If you need a more "scientific" explanation, MBTI and Big Five have 4 dichotomies that roughly correlate to each other. The fifth one in the Big Five that doesn't correlate with MBTI at all is called Neuroticism. Enneagram is all about neuroticism in lots of different flavors. The personality coincidences are just coincidences, as neuroticism doesn't correlate with MBTI type.

 

[LittleV]

Enneagram is all about neuroticism in lots of different flavors.

This is a very interesting perspective... about the possible overlap -- hence, the 'health levels'.

-----

Two of my best friends are ISTP's 9w8 (girl) and 9w1 (guy--close to E5). They can be spunky... but (generally) have good self-control... even though they could slip in bursts. They'd also try to avoid confrontation (especially when there are a lot of confusing emotions involved)... but would have no problem talking about people. The guy, I could never talk with about my personal life, though. It's kind of funny... if I'd bring something up (maybe once or twice--we've known each other since high school), he'd just go... "Yeah... maybe. [Silently listens.]" lol. However, he'd ask for a lot of personal advice. The gal, I could talk about more personal things with... and she'd provide rather good feedback, albeit sometimes bluntly. We could spend days together doing nothing, maybe just talking about thoughts, dreams and plans; most of the time when she'd drop me off at my place... we'd end up chatting in the car for hours. In any case, as a 4, I'd often get along with 9's very well.

-----

I don't know much about Vasilisa... but I could see some 9-ness in her... and her as an INFJ. I think she was one of the few people who'd 'popped out' for me (it also had to do with her username... as well as the many 'V's' in the thread title)... but I wouldn't say E9 is her dominant enneatype, from what I've seen/comparing what I've seen with various E9 friends (caveat).

 

[yeghor]

It's a need for peace, to be free from anxiety by avoiding conflict - or more aptly avoiding confrontation. The problem as a coping mechanism is that one necessarily develops a very keen skill for avoiding any sort of confrontation, even with oneself. While all Enneagram types practice some degree of lack of self-awareness, the 9 is explicitly unselfaware. Why? Because being aware means knowing what you want, which is good, and all of the reasons you cannot have it, which hurts like hell.

Assuming that I am correctly typed... This how I described my Ni-Fe at work in another thread:

...I guess the reaction from internal voice was coming from my opposing personality (i.e. ENFP, which I also equate with the shadow in the Jungian sense) but my INFJ persona quickly calculated the odds of a threat to my wellbeing (thru Ni-Fe I guess, which anticipated that my coworker would be displeased with it by seeing it as a challenge of his social status and would try to retaliate) and held me back from voicing out the concerns of my opposing personality....

I immediately felt fearful\anxious of things getting heated\physical even when I declined his request in a less assertive\more diplomatic way...This stems from my lack of faith in my confrontation and phyisical capabilities...

...

So even though my INFJ persona is aimed at minimising risk of confrontations for me thru Ni-Fe thereby avoiding physical hurt, it's as a result also causing me mental anguish thru not standing up for myself...

So Ni-Fe process not only gives insight into people's character, it also serves as a risk avoidance mechanism by anticipating how an individual may act in any given instance... It allows (or rather compels) INFJs to adept their behaviour to other people's preferences...sometimes against their own interest...so as not to get hurt...

This may result in codependent behaviour... And that reflex is vulnerable to being abused by certain personalities that rely on projecting whatever perspective that suits their own best interests as a means to chart their course in life...

So Ni-Fe is a mechanism to adept INFJs behaviour so as to avoid hostility...and INFJs withdraw from relationships when attempts to adept so as to cease hostilities fail...

So INFJs should use\train Ne-Fi assertiveness more (in friendlier environments prefereably) so as to dismantle that reflex...

However, my Ni confronts me as well...like a superego... The bolded part seems to be in conflict with this... or are you more like referring to lack of self-identity and preferences...? How can I check if I also do or don't do what you described in bold?

It might help to explain this in my personal INTJ 9 terms. My 9-ish-ness comes out more in my personal relationships than my work relationships. The typical 9 just goes along to get along, without really being aware of choices and consequences.

Sorry I'll try to relate these to MBTI terms...Like some kind of automatic compliance with others' preferences and demands? If yes, sounds like some kind of Fe...Why does 9 do this? What at the core does it expect? Not to ruffle feathers and protect the self from conflict? Can you give a concrete example?

As an INTJ, while this might apply for personal relationships, in a work environment, my job requires me to be very aware of the consequences of choices. For the most part, as I'm still a 9, if others have druthers that really don't matter ("I want the button to be pink." "No no no, the button should be blue, as that's our standard."), I just let others fight over it. But if I see bad architectural implications, I speak up, because I know that while I might avoid a conflict now, the future implications will give me a much greater headache. In those cases, I clearly speak up and stand my ground, precisely because I am aware.

At what age you become "aware" of this mechanism and started asserting your own crucial prefences when needed? For me it was like around 27-28... What happens if others insist on their preferences or brush off yours?

In my personal life, however, it is much easier for me to let people run all over me, especially if I love them very much. It's entirely possible for me to be deliriously happy, as I very much treasure that personal connection with the other person, and unconsciously miserable because more and more of my needs aren't being met.

This sounds like the martyrdom complex of Fe? Why do you do this...? What do you expect in return? Some kind of affirmation of something? What does it take for them to do to make you feel good when you do that?

If you need a more "scientific" explanation, MBTI and Big Five have 4 dichotomies that roughly correlate to each other. The fifth one in the Big Five that doesn't correlate with MBTI at all is called Neuroticism. Enneagram is all about neuroticism in lots of different flavors. The personality coincidences are just coincidences, as neuroticism doesn't correlate with MBTI type.

Key Motivations: Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer."

This is clearly Fi-Se or Fi-Ne...

Key Motivations: Want to be right, to strive higher and improve everything, to be consistent with their ideals, to justify themselves, to be beyond criticism so as not to be condemned by anyone.

This is Ni\Si-Fe...or perhaps Ni\Si-Te depending on the values emphasized...

Key Motivations: Want to be loved, to express their feelings for others, to be needed and appreciated, to get others to respond to them, to vindicate their claims about themselves.

This is Fe-aux...

Key Motivations: Want to be affirmed, to distinguish themselves from others, to have attention, to be admired, and to impress others.

This Fe-dom...

I don't know... How does this sound?

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69291&p=2283818&viewfull=1#post2283818

 

[Vasilisa]

weaving a tapestry

I am so grateful for all the replies. I guess I want to address some of the points brought up. I think what may be at the heart of some of the discussion is how little I put myself in my posts anymore. I used to do it more, I struggle with a desire to be known and a desire to remain hidden. I want to share more about this and some other personality defects in the near future. With respect to the stories and posts in forms blog, it really does come down to threads of concepts and ideas that I am ruminating on. At university I had this problem, where I was great at researching, collecting data, finding linked concepts but there comes a time when one must pivot, edit and begin to compose, and for me its like there was always more to input, more to add to synthesize something greater. Weaving the more intricate tapestry. I can open up about my own point of view with ideas and connections in conversation more often (venties please testify!) and I think back on old posts I made to Ginkgo, or my own help thread for example but its something I do more when I feel safe and its something that carries with it an intensity that cannot be sustained over too many different channels. I intend to post more on that later. So I have that insecurity which I could see being part of 4 or 6 or 9. The image world, is not image based on a 3 sensibility, its basically about pieces of my world I experience and the way that I can share that is by getting behind the images. Its a way of experiencing that is not thinking and it helps me channel creativity. Maybe its 4ish, but I don't want to blog in a traditional diary way. The signature is not about nothingness its about creativity and art and play and ultimately about intuition, to my mind.

I know this post isn't really going through a checklist of the descriptions, which I have been doing - thanks to all for their input, but from everything so far, 469 feels like the right direction. I shall need your help to examine further so that things may come into sharper focus.

 

[Starry]

Growing up, all the kids wanted to be nurses, firefighters, soldiers, policemen, and doctors.

And I just wanted to be Godzilla.

Is that too much to ask?!?!?!?!

Of course not. I grew-up alongside all the girls that wanted to become princesses and ballerinas and housewives... when all I ever wanted was to be a witch.

(some might say I succeeded in this regard haha so I know you can do it Ginkgo. I know you can become a Godzilla.)

*I* had issues with Enneagram until I realized that it wasn't typing personality, but neuroses, which made type 9 clear for me.

^^Since you quoted me I wasn't sure if this quote was also directed towards me... or outwardly as a general statement... but this has always been my understanding of the enneagram... And what I look to when typing individuals in these type me threads. The reason I'm making mention of this is merely to say that I've actually been criticized for doing this ( [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] )... and to say that I've been surprised by how many people don't understand this. Many people seem to want to match-up the individual's personality with the e-types description which may be a somewhat helpful guide but I believe leads to many mistypes (example: if you're not combative you can't be an 8 or have an 8 fix.)



Can someone hook me up with Vasilisa's video? For whatever reason I missed this and cannot find it.... Thank you.

 

[Ginkgo]

Of course not. I grew-up alongside all the girls that wanted to become princesses and ballerinas and housewives... when all I ever wanted was to be a witch.

(some might say I succeeded in this regard haha so I know you can do it Ginkgo. I know you can become a Godzilla.)

Your spell. It's transforming me!

Into...

I know this post isn't really going through a checklist of the descriptions, which I have been doing - thanks to all for their input, but from everything so far, 469 feels like the right direction. I shall need your help to examine further so that things may come into sharper focus.

Do you have a guess at the wings?