My Enneagram type? - I think I know my Freudian triad?

[valaki]

From this site, out of the 27, only the following tritypes really have some things in common with me. In the summaries I will bold the parts that I do relate to. What's not bolded is everything that I don't relate to. I also added comments in italic


The Systems Builder – 137
-Diligent/Ethical
-Focused/Efficient
-Innovative/Upbeat
-You are self-motivated and want to achieve your goals in a positive and effective way. You want to do your best and want to look good doing it. You focus on success and seek ways to measure it.

I left "positive" unbolded because stuff doesn't have to be through the simple easy way, maybe it would be too boring if everything just worked out right away without any difficulties. I don't like to waste too much time though so I did bold effective

The Researcher – 145
-Diligent/Ethical
-Intuitive/Original
-Knowledgeable/Wise
-Highly intellectual, you are focused on what you perceive is correct and beyond reproach. Research oriented, you seek and quote the opinions of experts to avoid being uncertain and seen as ignorant.

Correct in a logical sense, not ethical.
And I'm not too worried about uncertainty but I guess I wouldn't want to be ignorant

The Strategist – 258
-Caring/Helpful
-Knowledgable/Wise
-Protective/Straight Forward
-Highly sensitive, you are an empathetic and intellectual "people person". You are both introverted and extroverted and can be direct and easily move toward others, but also over give and pull away to recharge.

I don't feel empathy in the traditional way so I didn't bold that but there must be something to being helpful so maybe I just don't feel the empathy while it's still there in some form?
I pull away sometimes "just because", not due to over-giving. Sometimes I'm just tired or just have lower energy or something.

The Free Spirit – 278
-Caring/Helpful
-Innovative/Loving
-Protective/Straightforward
-You are assertive, funny, and outgoing You like to use your charming and sunny disposition to create an upbeat, positive, and action-packed environment. You are also very nurturing to those in your circle of care.

I don't think I'm that funny Also, me being outgoing varies greatly. I'm only charming until I start being confrontational and argumentative. As for action-packed environment, ok, not sure if it's that extremely positive however. I can't say "very" nurturing. Just to an extent.

The Solution Master – 358
-Ambitious/Efficient
-Knowledgeable/Wise
-Protective/Straightforward
-Tough-minded, you are good at studying a problem and finding both original and practical solutions others miss. Highly tenacious, you work tirelessly until you find solutions and prevail against adversity.

Wow, guess, that whole summary kind of fits but I think this is only one side of me, so it's not quite satisfying after all. I do know some people who are really described by this well because it takes up more of their whole personality or I dunno why. I can't say that my whole personality is about problem solving to be honest. Those people are all about it.

The Mover-Shaker – 378
-Ambitious/Efficient
-Innovative/Happy
-Protective/Straightforward
-You are a dynamic go-getter, focused on the prize. An expansive powerhouse, you see the big picture and a positive future, with the will to make it happen. Seeking success, obstacles are seen as competitive challenges.

Got a lot of comments for this one: well, sure, go-getter, but what the fuck does "dynamic" mean here? Prize in terms of desirable possession, sure. Expansive powerhouse sounds like an overstatement, I do have energy but this is just such a grandiose statement that I don't identify with it. As for big picture, I just mean overall picture of what I'd like, maybe that's not what's meant here. To make it happen needs more than just the will. As for competitive challenges, that expression didn't totally make sense :S If it means challenges are only challenges if it involves competing with others, then I don't agree. That's only one kind of many.

The Scholar – 458
-Intuitive/Original
-Knowledgable/Wise
-Protective/Straightforward
-You study what makes people tick and form strong opinions about what you learn. Somewhat introverted, you are identified with being an intuitive/strategic thinker and see interconnections that others may miss.

Well if study of the brain counts as studying what makes people tick then yes. In life outside research I don't do this that much. Aye to the rest. Though I don't know if others miss the things I see. It sometimes does feel like it.

The Messenger – 478
-Intuitive/Original
-Innovative/Creative
-Protective/Straightforward
-A cutting-edge tracker of both your internal and external worlds, you are an unconventional, passionate, and self-possessed master of solutions. Outwardly you are confident, but inwardly you are emotional and vulnerable.

Again a lot of comments here.
Firstly, I left the last couple of words unbolded because I'm not that emotional if we don't count anger which is expressed externally anyway so it's not an inward emotion thing. It's rare that I have this "inwardly emotional" thing though I do like it for some reason. I think I like it because of intensity and because it gives a sense to life, a sense of aliveness. Maybe even special feeling, which does sound like 4-ish to me but as I said this is very fuckin' rare.
Secondly, I'm not quite sure what's meant by cutting-edge but yes, I track "both worlds", I liked the way this was put lol, I guess somewhat more attention on the external, maybe.
Oh and self-possessed in the sense that I don't just collapse in a difficult situation

 

[valaki]

Guess what most fits from the above, in no particular order:

self-motivated
positive somewhat (not totally)
half introverted, half extraverted
tenacious in problem solving
sometimes finding original solutions
prevail about challenges, obstacles, adversity
like achieving what I want = my definition of success
thinking about people's workings
unconventional
passionate
confident
assertive go-getter
tough-minded
good dose of being intellectual
somewhat nurturing

I wish this had negative traits listed too, though. That would be more interesting huh. Though the above can be seen as negative too if it feels "too much" to someone. E.g. I can be seen as confident and tough-minded or as someone who's too argumentative and annoying, which happens often. Or I'm passionate but someone actually has seen that as overly passionate, and he was getting worried that I would get into too many risks blahblah.

And for types, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8 keep getting repeated. Though I'm really sure that I don't have that strong of a 4 or not in the stereotypical way. No 6 or 9. Where there was 1 in the tritype archetype, I didn't actually identify with it in the description. 2 happened once

So gut fix = 8
Head fix or connection = 5 or 7
Heart fix or connection = 2 or 3 or 4

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Does the definition of success involve other people's validation? Then I identify more with 7 than with 3. Freedom is important Other people's validation is just a pain in the ass.

I guess I don't understand what you meant by social mask. I meant an explicitly built persona thingie, not simply just privacy. Otherwise, I relate to the 5 thing and the 8 thing too here. I've always thought of myself as pretty open but only to a degree. Until a certain point, I will show everything freely to anyone and beyond that point I show nothing to anyone at all. Someone pointed this out to me before and it's true.

I have thought about 5 for head fix before, though then I don't know where to fit the 7. When did you start to disintegrate into 5 from 8? Because I can identify a period in my life when something started for me that can easily be called just that. Then that would explain strong 5-ish things about me. Though honestly, even before that I had some 5-ish stuff.

I also read your type thread now and mmmm you're giving me ideas! Maybe I'm 8-7-4 too! My dressing style is distinctly a 4 motivation. This is for sure. I don't have a lot of 4 otherwise, only glimpses here and there but I always liked 4.

But 8-5-3 also makes sense with triple emotional suppression :O Only strong emotion really left is anger and related emotions.

Welcome to the 3-5-8 tritype, I'll be your host. Most of my emotions are superficial now except for anger, vengeance, lust, and depression (Even guilt and remorse went out the window a long time ago).



I realized I wasn't actually an 8 disintegrating to 5 but merely a slightly unhealthy 8 fix with the 5 fix in the 3-5-8

 

[valaki]

Welcome to the 3-5-8 tritype, I'll be your host. Most of my emotions are superficial now except for anger, vengeance, lust, and depression (Even guilt and remorse went out the window a long time ago).

Lol hello there! =P

Tbh I am still thinking about 7 fix and maybe a weak 4 fix. Either 358 or 478 I guess?!?!

Anyway about emotions, you used the word "now". Was it different for you before? I was always like this. My strong emotions: anger, yeah the lust thingie (when you get the feeling of aliveness, you know?), frustration, sometimes indulging in self pity for not getting whatever I wanted, hahah. Vengeance, uh I wouldn't say it's that common or it's small things (nobody did things like kill my family yet thank god) so I don't differentiate it from basic anger.

Depression, do you mean self pity?

Ok and my weaker emotion: feeling enthusiastic. I mean it's kind of a superficial emotion. Can look like strong emotion outwardly. It's nowhere near as satisfying in intensity though as the above ones.

I realized I wasn't actually an 8 disintegrating to 5 but merely a slightly unhealthy 8 fix with the 5 fix in the 3-5-8

So what's the difference between 8 disintegrating into 5 and between slightly unhealthy 8 fix with 5 fix?

I truly think I had a period of real disintegration. Low on energy, no interaction with people: intentional withdrawing from it, study abstract things instead. Oh and even more detached from emotions. All that together. I think it left a mark on me.

 

[valaki]

[MENTION=20385]Alea_iacta_est[/MENTION]

I would still like to discuss definition of "success".

My definition of success: I like achieving what I want. This is out of intrinsic motivation.

The definition of success for type 3 involves other people's validation, right?

 

[valaki]

[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION]'s questionnaire pulled from another thread:



1. - It helps to establish a "baseline mood"--when you're at home staring at the walls, where are you at mentally and emotionally? (For example, many 4s report that their baseline is "melancholy").

Staring at the walls, if that's to be taken literally, then I have an empty mind, no emotions either. It's actually a pretty good state for me, just staring at the wall thinking of nothing. My way of meditation really.

This is my default state too, calm state, no emotions, no nothing, not thinking of much, some fleeting thoughts here and there. Like some fleeting clouds on the sky. A bit of feeling of readiness.


2. - Where were you as a little kid? Was there any perception you remember having that you can't find any reason for?

I don't understand the "where".

I did have some interesting things/perceptions... I'm not really sure what this question is getting at. I'm going to mention some randomly remembered perceptions that I didn't quite find reasons for, they just simply "were" and I thought to myself at the time "oh interesting that it is this way / interesting that I feel this way / interesting that I see this like that".

My very first memory of myself at age 3, I wanted to play with a needle and when I was told it was dangerous I thought to myself I was perfectly able to handle that. My little kid friend wanted to marry later in life, I looked at him for a second and coldly and matter-of-factly thought to myself "we are not going to marry, we are just kids and later it's just not going to happen", then I said okay, why not; we were 6 year olds. My father would talk to me when I was 5, about some stuff and I thought to myself that this wasn't realistic stuff. I was surprised one day at around age 8 that a memory I recalled felt viscerally so much like it just happened the previous day and I decided to maintain and not forget these memories.

As for what I was like more generally, I was a loner pretty much though I was capable of feeling excited for friends, in this blissful way, free of any negative stuff that came later. So always had 1-2 friends here and there but still I wandered around a lot alone. I was the smartest kid in class but I had a terrible temper and could not be persuaded otherwise if I wanted something. I would fight kids as well for whatever I wanted or just out of anger, in elementary/middle school, I had a terrible manner interacting with them in general and naturally I was an "outcast" in school (in kindergarten I wasn't yet, I was just simply a loner there). Teachers I didn't respect either though I liked one of them with the same enthusiasm that I had for friends. I really didn't like to be a kid overall, I always wanted to be a grown up so I could be in control.

A few other things that just came to mind that seemed characteristic of me back then. I was still in kindergarten (5 years old) when I decided to hate my father after he beat up my sister for nothing. Hate without real emotions, on principle. I figured out some - of course really basic - math on my own in kindergarten, at 5-6 years old. I couldn't sleep when it was time for afternoon sleep in kindergarten so I thought up adventure stories instead. I would do drawings of stuff very well and in a very realistic way and looked down on kids who didn't manage to do it in a realistic way. At age 3, my mother came for me early to take me home (from "pre-kindergarten" thingie), surprise, I was so truly glad and enthusiastic, happy to see her! didn't care when she told me to say thanks to the nurse for letting me take a little cloth home.


3. - If you are very familiar with the enneagram, you can generally see yourself in the surrounding types--and if you pay attention, you should be able to see how both influence you all day long.

You mean wings of my supposed type? Supposed type is 7 or 8. I don't see the 6 much, I sometimes see something 9-ish though, it's when I just zone out and think of nothing and maybe this is what's meant by "being asleep". Well maybe that's not it but I associated it with 9 for some reason... I can also be lazy as fuck. Sometimes I am seen as mediator when people start a fight with each other.


4. - What is your super-ego always telling you? I read Maitri recently, and she suggests writing out a conversation between your id, ego, and super-ego. When I did so, my type became very obvious. Listen to the ways you think you "should" be, and the things you've done to live up to that image.

Lol interesting. I don't have a constantly active super-ego telling me "should". Sometimes yes, I think to myself, ok, I should get up and do this task, should do that task before deadline (...I brush this aside very easily). Less often I get the following; Should be more polite to people, talk to people more in a social way, say "hi" to everyone and don't be argumentative. Should open up and talk about issues to friends. Should be loving (...can't do it, block). Should detach from wanting things so much (no!). Should take responsibility for what I've done (bad things).

I am not sure where ego is in all that. I do see the id

I have not really done anything to live up to these things. I think I have a weak superego HAH.


5. - What is your ego ideal? I mean, how would you ideally be if given the chance (you don't necessarily have to live up to it--I certainly fail at living up to mine, lol).

Being given the chance requires nothing short of a miracle* so I'm gonna pass on this one. (*: This is not enneagram related)

Alright, alright, I don't like to dream unnecessarily, but I would be very social in this intense expansive way and would be everywhere messing with everything doing shit. Influence on people, as much impact as possible.

Actually, maybe if given the chance I still wouldn't be like this but I have this one bit of snapshot of this in the back of my mind for some reason


6. - What pisses you off for others to observe in you? You should have some sort of ego reaction against people attacking your defenses and get angry or feel "hurt".

1st question - If they try to observe my motivations. Reaction: uh, just doesn't feel good? I'll probably protest

For the 2nd question - Uh it wasn't really an attack on my defenses but I recently got very angry over someone refusing something on the basis of personally not liking me enough. Guess it touched me on some point but I'm not sure if that's enneagram related. I just think these things should be decided impersonally. My reaction was telling him in a terribly honest way as to what I thought about all this, placing a lot of blame on him in the process as well. Telling him off as well, aiming to make him feel less "perfect" about his ways. (He's this idealistic I-know-it-all-and-will-support-you type) A sort of vengeance, as well.

I still don't see an ego reaction here though if freudian ego enneagram type is meant by that...

I'm sorry maybe this isn't the sort of stuff the question was aimed at... couldn't think of anything better for example for "feeling hurt".


7. - What "felt sense" do you have of your childhood? Were you deprived? Wronged? Abandoned? If you're not sure, write a short autobiography and try to determine what you are upset about.

Deprived or Abandoned (not sure which): when I was a small kid, by my mother for periods (she was away traveling). My father not showing interest or not in a way I could notice. When I was not so small anymore, no such things.
Wronged: by my father, beating up us kids. By some stupid teachers/classes (as a whole class yes, no problem if it was just individual kids), in school, as small kid and as teenager too.
Other things I was upset about: not placing so good in one contest (alright I didn't prepare enough ;p). uhh whatever else, can't remember more now.

But really I was just upset about being a kid in general. Sometimes about being an "outcast" in school. (Someone else instead was seen as "leader".) Sure, sometimes by my father. By the fact that I was the youngest kid in the family.

I'm not upset about most of these things in retrospect. This all was such a long time ago. My father and I got okay later, much later. Still upsetting memory of some teachers/classes (see "wronged" section above) but I don't think of the past often.

I think that it was a result of all that, that I had the feeling I was left to deal with life on my own. I never thought of talking about problems with family or anything really or even getting truly involved in family life. Let alone school life etc. I think this is a good summary of "felt sense" in my childhood.


***

So what type do I seem like based on the above? I guess I see ID type strongly I kind of see 4-5-8 (854 for order of tritype) altogether. Or 4-7-8 (874). But I am open to hearing opinions from others! Thanks!

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Lol hello there! =P

Tbh I am still thinking about 7 fix and maybe a weak 4 fix. Either 358 or 478 I guess?!?!

Anyway about emotions, you used the word "now". Was it different for you before? I was always like this. My strong emotions: anger, yeah the lust thingie (when you get the feeling of aliveness, you know?), frustration, sometimes indulging in self pity for not getting whatever I wanted, hahah. Vengeance, uh I wouldn't say it's that common or it's small things (nobody did things like kill my family yet thank god) so I don't differentiate it from basic anger.

Depression, do you mean self pity?

Ok and my weaker emotion: feeling enthusiastic. I mean it's kind of a superficial emotion. Can look like strong emotion outwardly. It's nowhere near as satisfying in intensity though as the above ones.




So what's the difference between 8 disintegrating into 5 and between slightly unhealthy 8 fix with 5 fix?

I truly think I had a period of real disintegration. Low on energy, no interaction with people: intentional withdrawing from it, study abstract things instead. Oh and even more detached from emotions. All that together. I think it left a mark on me.

I say now as in some emotions have faded away. I use to feel guilty about things when I was much, much younger but that just stopped after some time. I didn't really have enthusiasm to begin with, I just developed a superficial version to survive in this social world.

8 -> 5, becomes utterly hostile and sadistic, retreating from the world and fighting anything that dare crosses the 8's boundaries
unhealthy (nowhere near level 9 pathological destruction or level 8) 8 fix + 5 fix -> retreating some and becoming more argumentative. 5 fix naturally draws person to introversion somewhat anyways.

3's don't always need other people's validation to achieve their desire, though they greatly appreciate it.
3w2 might want everyone's validation, while 3w4 might want a select few's validation.

A 3 at the end of their life wants to look back on something and say "I did this, I was successful, I won."

If you see life as a game with winners and losers, chances are you are a 3.

BTW: The 3-5-8 is infamous for being emotionless and extremely narcissistic. Also, the 3-5-8 has been known to ignore the Super-Ego when not motivated occasionally.

 

[valaki]

I say now as in some emotions have faded away. I use to feel guilty about things when I was much, much younger but that just stopped after some time. I didn't really have enthusiasm to begin with, I just developed a superficial version to survive in this social world.

Ah interesting. I was never into feeling guilt much. Please don't think I am some sort of sociopath now heh

I mean, I know what the feeling of guilt is like, on some level, but it's just so easy to push out of the mind because it's really weak anyway, the feeling.

You don't have genuine enthusiasm or passion?? I can't imagine life without it. I don't at all get you about developing whatever superficial version of it. Why is this weird social word even requiring that? Well I'm still the bull in the china shop when talking about social world so nevermind me. ;p

8 -> 5, becomes utterly hostile and sadistic, retreating from the world and fighting anything that dare crosses the 8's boundaries
unhealthy (nowhere near level 9 pathological destruction or level 8) 8 fix + 5 fix -> retreating some and becoming more argumentative. 5 fix naturally draws person to introversion somewhat anyways.

Oh, I am really into being argumentative and I wondered before why I am like this. This kind of makes sense unfortunately.

As for the being utterly hostile and sadistic, no, back then with the disintegration thingie, I was just doing the things I described, about withdrawing. I wasn't specifically more hostile or sadistic. I don't really understand anyway how can you both retreat and fight at the same time?

3's don't always need other people's validation to achieve their desire, though they greatly appreciate it.

What do they do when they don't need validation? I thought the very core definition of 3 was desire for validation?! Desire to feel worthy and good enough through being admired and validated. And btw I don't relate to that.

A 3 at the end of their life wants to look back on something and say "I did this, I was successful, I won."

Won in what sense? This is again pretty vague.

If you see life as a game with winners and losers, chances are you are a 3.

Wtf is the idea of "life as a game"?

I've heard that expression before but that just sounds ridiculous to me. No I take life more seriously than that crap.

BTW: The 3-5-8 is infamous for being emotionless and extremely narcissistic. Also, the 3-5-8 has been known to ignore the Super-Ego when not motivated occasionally.

Quite honestly if narcissism involves grandiose thoughts then meh no... I prefer to be realistic. I don't need to imagine wishful BS about myself. I am egocentric yes but I don't need to think of myself in grandiose terms if it doesn't match reality as it leads nowhere

Don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue of being thought of as a narcissist, because I'm perfectly aware of my egocentrism and I do have a lot of confidence to go with it as well and I do expect to get things for myself and don't like criticism, I just don't relate to this part of the concept as mentioned.

I do know someone who's probably archetype of 3-5-8, I think he's an 583 or 538. So I think I know what you mean about 3-5-8 being emotionless and narcissistic though he isn't that terribly narcissistic either because he has his ideas about integrity. E.g. he is against double standards including when this principle applies to himself He's just extremely egocentric, but got only a somewhat inflated image of himself. Still I've seen his inflated ego prevent him from getting certain business related deals and I thought that was pretty stupid

Aye, I ignore any kind of super-ego easily. Not just occasionally, it's my default state.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Ah interesting. I was never into feeling guilt much. Please don't think I am some sort of sociopath now heh

I mean, I know what the feeling of guilt is like, on some level, but it's just so easy to push out of the mind because it's really weak anyway, the feeling.

You don't have genuine enthusiasm or passion?? I can't imagine life without it. I don't at all get you about developing whatever superficial version of it. Why is this weird social word even requiring that? Well I'm still the bull in the china shop when talking about social world so nevermind me. ;p




Oh, I am really into being argumentative and I wondered before why I am like this. This kind of makes sense unfortunately.

As for the being utterly hostile and sadistic, no, back then with the disintegration thingie, I was just doing the things I described, about withdrawing. I wasn't specifically more hostile or sadistic. I don't really understand anyway how can you both retreat and fight at the same time?




What do they do when they don't need validation? I thought the very core definition of 3 was desire for validation?! Desire to feel worthy and good enough through being admired and validated. And btw I don't relate to that.




Won in what sense? This is again pretty vague.




Wtf is the idea of "life as a game"?

I've heard that expression before but that just sounds ridiculous to me. No I take life more seriously than that crap.




Quite honestly if narcissism involves grandiose thoughts then meh no... I prefer to be realistic. I don't need to imagine wishful BS about myself. I am egocentric yes but I don't need to think of myself in grandiose terms if it doesn't match reality as it leads nowhere

Don't get me wrong, I don't have an issue of being thought of as a narcissist, because I'm perfectly aware of my egocentrism and I do have a lot of confidence to go with it as well and I do expect to get things for myself and don't like criticism, I just don't relate to this part of the concept as mentioned.

I do know someone who's probably archetype of 3-5-8, I think he's an 583. So I think I know what you mean about 3-5-8 being emotionless and narcissistic though he isn't that terribly narcissistic either because he has his ideas about integrity. E.g. he is against double standards including when this principle applies to himself He's just extremely egocentric, but got only a somewhat inflated image of himself. Still I've seen his inflated ego prevent him from getting certain business related deals though and I thought that was pretty stupid

Aye, I ignore any kind of super-ego easily. Not just occasionally, it's my default state.

3's think of life as a competition, I was using game in the way that 3's see games, as competitions. There are winners and losers, and no in-betweens. (This is for average 3s, healthy 3s will generally try to overlook this standard)

My enthusiasm and passion is replaced by lust. Where passion and enthusiasm would say "I aspire to do this, I will work hard and true to earn this", lust says "I must have this, at any cost, I will stop at nothing."

Healthy 3s can find validation from within themselves (which surprisingly means I'm probably a healthy 3 or severely unhealthy). 3's do love validation from others, but they care more about success and will follow their fixation of deceit to help them achieve it when low average health, even if that means hurting others.

 

[valaki]

3's think of life as a competition, I was using game in the way that 3's see games, as competitions. There are winners and losers, and no in-betweens. (This is for average 3s, healthy 3s will generally try to overlook this standard)

The context in which I heard the expression before made it sound like it's some artificial way of seeing life and my strong reaction is to that. I'm not sure if I can explain this well lol

Anyway, no, I don't fully get the idea of "winners and losers". What does it mean no in-between? You mention a standard. Is this some social expectation about winners and losers? Elaborate please?

Do keep it in mind I'm the bull in the china shop with regard to social things So I'm pretty sure I'm not a core 3 type anyway but I'm curious what's meant by the above.

My enthusiasm and passion is replaced by lust. Where passion and enthusiasm would say "I aspire to do this, I will work hard and true to earn this", lust says "I must have this, at any cost, I will stop at nothing."

I don't see why lust and passion would have to exclude each other.

Note, passion and enthusiasm to me don't mean "I will work hard and true to earn this". Nope. That "be true to earn this" thing sounds like some super ego thing or some external expectation. Passion and enthusiasm - in my interpretation - are of intrinsic origin however. Passion means I'm really passionately into something. I've been seen inspiring others in the process so it can also be called enthusiasm in that sense. Again, others were worried that I was going to overdo it because of the passion. lol

Healthy 3s can find validation from within themselves (which surprisingly means I'm probably a healthy 3 or severely unhealthy). 3's do love validation from others, but they care more about success and will follow their fixation of deceit to help them achieve it when low average health, even if that means hurting others.

How do you define success? I really need to hear your definition of it.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

The context in which I heard the expression before made it sound like it's some artificial way of seeing life and my strong reaction is to that. I'm not sure if I can explain this well lol

Anyway, no, I don't fully get the idea of "winners and losers". What does it mean no in-between? You mention a standard. Is this some social expectation about winners and losers? Elaborate please?

Do keep it in mind I'm the bull in the china shop with regard to social things So I'm pretty sure I'm not a core 3 type anyway but I'm curious what's meant by the above.




I don't see why lust and passion would have to exclude each other.

Note, passion and enthusiasm to me don't mean "I will work hard and true to earn this". Nope. That "be true to earn this" thing sounds like some super ego thing or some external expectation. Passion and enthusiasm - in my interpretation - are of intrinsic origin however. Passion means I'm really passionately into something. I've been seen inspiring others in the process so it can also be called enthusiasm in that sense. Again, others were worried that I was going to overdo it because of the passion. lol




How do you define success? I really need to hear your definition of it.

The whole winners and losers thing boils down to that there are successful people, and there are failures, and there aren't any in between. You either win and be successful or you lose and are an utter failure.

Success is an entirely subjective concept, its your own interpretation of it.

What is objective is each of the enneagram type's fears, and the 3's fear is being a failure: not succeeding, not changing the world, or being looked down upon as inferior. The opposite of the 3's fear of failure is success, so a 3 upmost desires success to counter-balance the all consuming fear of failure. This could be success intellectually such as curing cancer or designing an innovative theorem, or small town successes like taking on leadership roles.

My definition of success is changing the world and contributing to human history.

A 3 with an 8 and 5 fix is an entirely different beast than one might expect from a 3w2.

 

[valaki]

The whole winners and losers thing boils down to that there are successful people, and there are failures, and there aren't any in between. You either win and be successful or you lose and are an utter failure.

Sounds extremely stressful and a real pain in the ass.

What's a "failure" anyway?

Success is an entirely subjective concept, its your own interpretation of it.

But I don't get this whole idea of success = enneagram 3. I've read that 3 is about external validation, not simply about success. And I thought the point of ennegram was motivation behind behaviour. In this case, basic desire being validated and thus being good enough, basic fear being worthless.

So why did you say that not all 3s need validation? That statement is in direct conflict with the statement of all 3's having the same basic fear and desire.

What is objective is each of the enneagram type's fears, and the 3's fear is being a failure: not succeeding, not changing the world, or being looked down upon as inferior. The opposite of the 3's fear of failure is success, so a 3 upmost desires success to counter-balance the all consuming fear of failure. This could be success intellectually such as curing cancer or designing an innovative theorem, or small town successes like taking on leadership roles.

So if an enneagram 5 (with say, 1 fix and 2 fix in tritype) wants to cure cancer are they suddenly a core type 3? Or can an enneagram 5 not wish to do such things? Only an enneagram 3 can desire these things?

To go on with that example, I heard 5's fear was being looked down on as someone who's ignorant, so they also don't want to be seen as inferior.

"Not good enough", "not being worthy" sounds a more 3 specific fear to me.

My definition of success is changing the world and contributing to human history.

This isn't 3-specific.

A 3 with an 8 and 5 fix is an entirely different beast than one might expect from a 3w2.

I've once heard the wise advice: don't bother with tritype to explain why you're so goddamn different from a speciifc core type in core ways. "You" means general you. I don't know how well you identify with 3's basic fear/desire etc. But I would be guessing that if you don't need external validation then maybe you're not a core 3 either. And that's also why I don't see myself as a core 3.

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Sounds extremely stressful and a real pain in the ass.

What's a "failure" anyway?




But I don't get this whole idea of success = enneagram 3. I've read that 3 is about external validation, not simply about success. And I thought the point of ennegram was motivation behind behaviour. In this case, basic desire being validated and thus being good enough, basic fear being worthless.

So why did you say that not all 3s need validation? That statement is in direct conflict with the statement of all 3's having the same basic fear and desire.




So if an enneagram 5 (with say, 1 fix and 2 fix in tritype) wants to cure cancer are they suddenly a core type 3? Or can an enneagram 5 not wish to do such things? Only an enneagram 3 can desire these things?

To go on with that example, I heard 5's fear was being looked down on as someone who's ignorant, so they also don't want to be seen as inferior.

"Not good enough", "not being worthy" sounds a more 3 specific fear to me.




This isn't 3-specific.




I've once heard the wise advice: don't bother with tritype to explain why you're so goddamn different from a speciifc core type in core ways. "You" means general you. I don't know how well you identify with 3's basic fear/desire etc. But I would be guessing that if you don't need external validation then maybe you're not a core 3 either. And that's also why I don't see myself as a core 3.

5's fear actually being incompetent, they don't care about being looked down upon, its internal assessment.

If a 5 wants to cure cancer, I am willing to bet it is because he wants to solve the problem (for fun) rather than be known for solving the problem.

Of course that isn't 3-specific, that's entirely subjective.

I say some 3s as in healthy and unhealthy 3s. Those two levels of health don't need external validation because the healthy level reaches the point of self-acceptance and the unhealthy level reaches the level of extreme Narcissism.

The point of the enneagram is to determine your motivation, and those motivations are entirely amorphous, they do not always mean exactly what is stated and are open to interpretation.
1s are motivated to be perfect (again, open to all interpretation)
2s are motivated to help others
3s are motivated to be successful
4s are motivated to be unique
5s are motivated to be capable and competent
6s are motivated to be loyal and obedient
7s are motivated to be content with their life
8s are motivated to be in control
9s are motivated to keep the peace.

You are looking at it as if there is one, singular definition for what makes a 3 and what doesn't, when the Enneagram isn't based off any sort of actual science, it is a personality theory with no actual ground in the real world yet and is completely open to interpretation.

Yes, being not good enough and not being worthy are possible interpretations to the 3's fear.

My more accurate 3 desire is to be remembered. To not pass into oblivion without having done something, to have my name be somewhere with an inscription of something I have done.

 

[valaki]

5's fear actually being incompetent, they don't care about being looked down upon, its internal assessment.

Yes, incompetent, but some 5 put it as not being seen as ignorant. Apparently some 5's like it if their expertise is accepted by others. Maybe that's a 3 fix and not core trait of a 5, then? But I could see it as working without requiring validation. Simply the expertise and use of it seen as the end goal. So it doesn't have to involve 3 after all...? Just simply a competency type (both 3 and 5 are competent types)

If a 5 wants to cure cancer, I am willing to bet it is because he wants to solve the problem (for fun) rather than be known for solving the problem.

Alright, you didn't mention desire for fame, you simply mentioned success. See this is why I wanted a definition of success. Mine doesn't involve fame.

I say some 3s as in healthy and unhealthy 3s. Those two levels of health don't need external validation because the healthy level reaches the point of self-acceptance and the unhealthy level reaches the level of extreme Narcissism.

Well I guess not many people are that healthy. I certainly am not in my healthiest mode lately.

The point of the enneagram is to determine your motivation, and those motivations are entirely amorphous, they do not always mean exactly what is stated and are open to interpretation.

I noticed that ;p

You are looking at it as if there is one, singular definition for what makes a 3 and what doesn't, when the Enneagram isn't based off any sort of actual science, it is a personality theory with no actual ground in the real world yet and is completely open to interpretation.

Well a theory should still have clear definitions. It doesn't have to be actual empirical science but that doesn't exclude use of clear definitions. If it's truly "completely" open to interpretation then it's a rather useless theory. In my view

Yes, being not good enough and not being worthy are possible interpretations to the 3's fear.

What other interpretations are commonly accepted? These are the ones I've seen.

Note I don't have an issue with someone developing their own enneagram theory but then I expect them to make clear definitions and use correct notation to avoid getting mixed up with other enneagram theories. Understand that otherwise the whole thing is useless. Well not entirely useless as long as each party in a discussion is willing to start with explaining their own definitions so there can be communication *at all*.

My more accurate 3 desire is to be remembered. To not pass into oblivion without having done something, to have my name be somewhere with an inscription of something I have done.

That to me sounds like a somewhat more indirect version of wanting external validation. Or I can even imagine it due to reasons other than core 3 motivation, it's rather generic, the desire to DO something.

Btw it's not so hard to achieve that really. Get into reproduction, create a family => they will remember you; have them get a tomb done for you that has an inscription "Alea_iacta_est loved us so much" => you get your inscription of something.

Okay, joke aside, how old are you? Just curious.

 

[Chad of the OttomanEmpire]

[MENTION=20622]valaki[/MENTION]

Hey, I saw your questionnaire on the other page.

Going by that, I'd wager 8w7 over 7w8--I see lots of cynicism and a sense that others out-casted you which seems more in line with 8 than 7. Dunno about the tritype.

However--I'm going to put up a more refined version of the questionnaire (hopefully in within the next 24 hours), consisting of about 12 questions, that might make it easier if you're still wondering at that point.

 

[valaki]

[MENTION=20622]valaki[/MENTION]

Hey, I saw your questionnaire on the other page.

Going by that, I'd wager 8w7 over 7w8--I see lots of cynicism and a sense that others out-casted you which seems more in line with 8 than 7. Dunno about the tritype.

However--I'm going to put up a more refined version of the questionnaire (hopefully in within the next 24 hours), consisting of about 12 questions, that might make it easier if you're still wondering at that point.

Thanks for your opinion Yes I'll be definitely checking out the more refined version!

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

Yes, incompetent, but some 5 put it as not being seen as ignorant. Apparently some 5's like it if their expertise is accepted by others. Maybe that's a 3 fix and not core trait of a 5, then? But I could see it as working without requiring validation. Simply the expertise and use of it seen as the end goal. So it doesn't have to involve 3 after all...? Just simply a competency type (both 3 and 5 are competent types)




Alright, you didn't mention desire for fame, you simply mentioned success. See this is why I wanted a definition of success. Mine doesn't involve fame.




Well I guess not many people are that healthy. I certainly am not in my healthiest mode lately.




I noticed that ;p




Well a theory should still have clear definitions. It doesn't have to be actual empirical science but that doesn't exclude use of clear definitions. If it's truly "completely" open to interpretation then it's a rather useless theory. In my view




What other interpretations are commonly accepted? These are the ones I've seen.

Note I don't have an issue with someone developing their own enneagram theory but then I expect them to make clear definitions and use correct notation to avoid getting mixed up with other enneagram theories. Understand that otherwise the whole thing is useless. Well not entirely useless as long as each party in a discussion is willing to start with explaining their own definitions so there can be communication *at all*.




That to me sounds like a somewhat more indirect version of wanting external validation. Or I can even imagine it due to reasons other than core 3 motivation, it's rather generic, the desire to DO something.

Btw it's not so hard to achieve that really. Get into reproduction, create a family => they will remember you; have them get a tomb done for you that has an inscription "Alea_iacta_est loved us so much" => you get your inscription of something.

Okay, joke aside, how old are you? Just curious.

It's an indirect version of validation because I have a 5 fix that is at odds with the rest of social society, I'm an sx/sp with social as my last variant.

It is indeed a useless theory, but it is fun nonetheless. Everyone has each of the types in them a little bit, it is merely which ones are more pronounced than others. Not everyone is completely black and white in these terms.

There are nearly infinite possibilities of what could be interpretations of the type 3's success orientation, anything you can think of that has to do with the core drive for utter success is an interpretation, and the success itself reflects the ambition and the meaning of success to that particular person.

Out of curiosity, what does success mean to you?

I'm leaning backward on my original typing with you and the one that [MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] thinks as well, which is 8w7 core.

 

[valaki]

interesting stuff at typewatch:

the 3 ranges of sx/sp:

sx/sp seducer (weak sp) - sx in full command produces an active recruiter of potential mates; but being sx/sp this remains in the yin mode of seducing. charismatic and overtly sexualized, arguably the most purely sx of all stacks and ranges. draws from so/sx shadow to liven up sx into an erotic playfulness and to keep sx far ahead of their relatively nominal sp. an emotional yearning to their mating ritual; an inherently unstable range that can lead to a pattern of serial heartbreak. often confused for sx/so.

sx/sp mystifier (midrange) - the range where the mystique of the sx/sp stack is at its strongest. unconsciously attracts with intense eye contact and other sx feelers, but holds back enough to give them a kind of untouchable or hard to get close to quality. depending on their true intentions this can either frustrate their sx or reward their functional sp cooling system. like midrangers of all stacks, there's a seemingly casual approach to meeting their variant needs as the secondary instinct is kept both in play and at bay, and others may wonder what they really want.

sx/sp wanderer (strong sp) - the most clasically 'blocked' of the sx's, often exchanging intimacy in favor of the more immediate pleasures of the body. paradoxically the most wandering and restless of the sx/sp's. pulls from sp/so to ensure the sx flood is contained by the sp levee, which can provide a sense of stability at the expense of seeming put off by others. sex can mean a hollow satisfying of the instinct while more vulnerable feelings are suspended. quietly charged but muted, and can seem self pres first.

Alright I'll be sx/sp wanderer then


Harmonic group:

Eights can get into conflict by being too willful, defiant and confrontational. Eights tend to not censor their own impulses or emotional reactions. Eights want to feel the realness of conflict to give themselves a stronger sense of being. When conflicts occur, Eights are very quick to challenge and confront them. Eights keep their guard up all the time and want to minimize their dependence on (and trust in) others. They do not want others to see their vulnerable side.

vs

Sevens can get into conflicts by being impatient, irresponsible, and excessive. Sevens tend to focus on their positive expectations for satisfaction and fulfillment. Sevens are in fact fleeing from a threatening internal world and seeking security in the external world. If Sevens slow down, their minds may be drawn into the inner world of grief, sadness, and disappointment. Their quick minds avoid dealing with conflict and problems through distraction and constant activity. Sevens do not typically internalize their experiences; they remain somewhat unattached to people and things. In conflict, Sevens can quickly discard things and cancel commitments (ie., the needs of others) without feelings of regret. It is easier to move on to happier things than to stay with things that depress. Sevens tend to reject the needs of others in favour of fulfilling their own.

Hmm, well, I relate to both. I have got into conflicts for both 8 and 7 reasons according to this description.

Yes, hard to stay with depression. For 8 this would be done through denial and for 7 through distraction, right?

One of the main things I don't relate to in the 7 desc is threatening internal world, I mean I don't see mine as threatening. It's full of nice logic images and other related things, nothing threatening about that

And it's not true I'd avoid dealing with conflict. Even if I distract myself from some things I still have to get it out of my system sooner or later through confronting the issue and if that involves conflict with someone, so be it :/. I'm rather good at distraction too, though. But not forever ;p


For completeness, here's some stuff on object relations.

I'm more Rejection-based Group than Frustration-based Group there (not relating to Attachment-based Group), but I don't get the idea here: All three of these types offer some service or skill as a way of staving off rejection. Twos offer their caring and affection; Eights offer their strength; and Fives offer their knowledge and expertise.

I understand what it says about Twos and Fives, what kind of strength is typically offered by Eights? Some real life examples would be helpful... anyone got any?

 

[Alea_iacta_est]

interesting stuff at typewatch:

the 3 ranges of sx/sp:

sx/sp seducer (weak sp) - sx in full command produces an active recruiter of potential mates; but being sx/sp this remains in the yin mode of seducing. charismatic and overtly sexualized, arguably the most purely sx of all stacks and ranges. draws from so/sx shadow to liven up sx into an erotic playfulness and to keep sx far ahead of their relatively nominal sp. an emotional yearning to their mating ritual; an inherently unstable range that can lead to a pattern of serial heartbreak. often confused for sx/so.

sx/sp mystifier (midrange) - the range where the mystique of the sx/sp stack is at its strongest. unconsciously attracts with intense eye contact and other sx feelers, but holds back enough to give them a kind of untouchable or hard to get close to quality. depending on their true intentions this can either frustrate their sx or reward their functional sp cooling system. like midrangers of all stacks, there's a seemingly casual approach to meeting their variant needs as the secondary instinct is kept both in play and at bay, and others may wonder what they really want.

sx/sp wanderer (strong sp) - the most clasically 'blocked' of the sx's, often exchanging intimacy in favor of the more immediate pleasures of the body. paradoxically the most wandering and restless of the sx/sp's. pulls from sp/so to ensure the sx flood is contained by the sp levee, which can provide a sense of stability at the expense of seeming put off by others. sex can mean a hollow satisfying of the instinct while more vulnerable feelings are suspended. quietly charged but muted, and can seem self pres first.

Alright I'll be sx/sp wanderer then


Harmonic group:

Eights can get into conflict by being too willful, defiant and confrontational. Eights tend to not censor their own impulses or emotional reactions. Eights want to feel the realness of conflict to give themselves a stronger sense of being. When conflicts occur, Eights are very quick to challenge and confront them. Eights keep their guard up all the time and want to minimize their dependence on (and trust in) others. They do not want others to see their vulnerable side.

vs

Sevens can get into conflicts by being impatient, irresponsible, and excessive. Sevens tend to focus on their positive expectations for satisfaction and fulfillment. Sevens are in fact fleeing from a threatening internal world and seeking security in the external world. If Sevens slow down, their minds may be drawn into the inner world of grief, sadness, and disappointment. Their quick minds avoid dealing with conflict and problems through distraction and constant activity. Sevens do not typically internalize their experiences; they remain somewhat unattached to people and things. In conflict, Sevens can quickly discard things and cancel commitments (ie., the needs of others) without feelings of regret. It is easier to move on to happier things than to stay with things that depress. Sevens tend to reject the needs of others in favour of fulfilling their own.

Hmm, well, I relate to both. I have got into conflicts for both 8 and 7 reasons according to this description.

Yes, hard to stay with depression. For 8 this would be done through denial and for 7 through distraction, right?

One of the main things I don't relate to in the 7 desc is threatening internal world, I mean I don't see mine as threatening. It's full of nice logic images and other related things, nothing threatening about that

And it's not true I'd avoid dealing with conflict. Even if I distract myself from some things I still have to get it out of my system sooner or later through confronting the issue and if that involves conflict with someone, so be it :/. I'm rather good at distraction too, though. But not forever ;p


For completeness, here's some stuff on object relations.

I'm more Rejection-based Group than Frustration-based Group there (not relating to Attachment-based Group), but I don't get the idea here: All three of these types offer some service or skill as a way of staving off rejection. Twos offer their caring and affection; Eights offer their strength; and Fives offer their knowledge and expertise.

I understand what it says about Twos and Fives, what kind of strength is typically offered by Eights? Some real life examples would be helpful... anyone got any?

8's strengths are being mentally strong, being able to bear the weight of conflict and conflagration and even be the initiator of said conflict.
When healthy, 8's are extremely strong leaders that integrate partially to 2, giving them the caring nature of the 2 and the strong decision making and will of the 8.
When unhealthy, the 8's "strengths" are his or her brutality against those that would seek to harm him or her. It's part of this whole fear coming true thing that I have linked below : (scroll down, it's also only for type 1 because they want you to pay, but you'll get the jist of it)http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/levels.asp#.UtYBtvRDuvQ

 

[valaki]

It's an indirect version of validation because I have a 5 fix that is at odds with the rest of social society, I'm an sx/sp with social as my last variant.

It is indeed a useless theory, but it is fun nonetheless. Everyone has each of the types in them a little bit, it is merely which ones are more pronounced than others. Not everyone is completely black and white in these terms.

There are nearly infinite possibilities of what could be interpretations of the type 3's success orientation, anything you can think of that has to do with the core drive for utter success is an interpretation, and the success itself reflects the ambition and the meaning of success to that particular person.

Out of curiosity, what does success mean to you?

I'm leaning backward on my original typing with you and the one that [MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] thinks as well, which is 8w7 core.

I didn't mean it *had to* be useless, only if it's not clear what is what in the theory. I don't think things are as bad with enneagram as with socionics on certain forums ;p

As for the infinite possibilities you mention as manifestation of the core drive, that's fine, the core drive itself is what should be distinct though... I guess maybe we are on the same page here.

Success to me, I already said it before: getting what I wanted or meeting a challenge. Doesn't involve external expectations, only intrinsic motivation.

Alright, so nobody sees 7w8 so far? I'm not totally decided on that myself yet. I recall I saw myself in some 7w8 descriptions, though some 8w7 too. I will dig those up later, going to bed now. Thanks and seeya for now