INTP or ENTP?

[ZiL]

I've mentioned this before in other threads, but I figured I'd ask for some thoughts directly this time around...

After like...2 years of believing entirely that I must be an INTP, I've recently started to wonder if this is actually the case, and I don't know how others have decided their place on the E vs. I continuum.

Throughout school I could never find my niche, so I resorted to turning inward and valuing my alone time, as it was the only time where I could fully invest myself in my interests, as I had no one else to share them with. But when I was much younger, I was not so inward-focused. I would go up and talk to all sorts of strangers (great at taking my parents advice, huh?), and I'd always have like 80 different projects going on based off all my interests...I'd be painting a picture, making up some English notebook for my cousin and dancing around the house being way-too-hyper in front of my mom all in the same day.

I'm wondering if that turning inward throughout high school was not true introversion but rather a detour of sorts? Because now that I'm in college, I find that rather than keeping to myself, I prefer to talk to those around me and make connections with people. I initiate conversations 70% of the time. I still am very socially anxious, and certain situations do drain me - discussions with extremely opinionated people, and discussions about extremely day-to-day topics - but I get depressed faster after too many days with little social contact than I used to. Plus my Fe score is pretty high...not higher than Ne or Ti of course, but it's up there.

I've tried to use the enneagram to help me out, but as I've questioned by MBTI type, so I've begun to question my enneagram ! I thought I was a 5, but I doubt it now. Certain descriptions make me veer towards 6 and 7. Basically I know I'm in the anxiety triad. ANXIETY! But that's it.


Any ideas?

 

[JAVO]

I think you sound like a balanced introvert, especially when you factor in your high Fe making you more people-focused.

I'm much happier and energetic now that I've been working on balancing toward extraversion. I enjoy interacting with people. But, I'm still an I.

 

[substitute]

actually you sound similar to me in the development history type of thing. Quiet and solitary at school, I was, too. I thought for the longest time that I was an introvert too. But then later I came really outta my shell and just increasingly realized that the ENTP profile was much more me than INTP. I think the 'false introversion' was really down to just awkwardness, lack of confidence really in dealing with people, fear - more than anything to do with genuinely wanting to be alone a lot. Whenever I was alone, looking back, I did feel lonely and bored and wished I had a big load of friends to go out with all the time. And I WAS willing to sacrifice my alone time to do that. I just didn't know how to, and when I tried, it didn't go right.

The thought's occurred to me that ENTP's, being so strongly extraverted due to Ne, are bound to have a rough time of it because of Ti being the backup. ENFP's wouldn't find it so hard, I imagine, having that F advantage with people, so they're more easily able (or learn quicker) to present their Ne craziness in a way that people like and feel affection for. Whilst I think ENTP's lack that advantage, and probably just come through as crazy 'in a bad way' until we get older and the T mellows out a bit.

I'm pretty sure I've seen on a lot of ENTP profiles that we have great difficulty with fitting in and stuff as kids, teens and young adults. I think they say we don't really stop being jerks until we're in our 30's. I'm 31 and still waiting... heheh

Actually it was an 'ENTP at work' profile that really kicked me into realising I've always been an E. Cos work was where I was confident (knew the job very well, no doubts about that), I was less held back by that lack of confidence and behaved at work much more ENTP-ish than I did elsewhere. Reading that and thinking on it really brought it home to me that what I wanted to do wasn't to become a more healthy INTP - attempts to do so had failed and I never felt it was really 'me' - but to just learn to be able to be the confident, happy me that I was at work, everywhere else, and as I began to let myself out elsewhere, I found that the 'self' I was being, that I discovered, gradually filled in more of the 'blocks' on the ENTP general profile as I went.

 

[nemo]

But when I was much younger, I was not so inward-focused. I would go up and talk to all sorts of strangers (great at taking my parents advice, huh?), and I'd always have like 80 different projects going on based off all my interests...I'd be painting a picture, making up some English notebook for my cousin and dancing around the house being way-too-hyper in front of my mom all in the same day.

Yo.

From what I've read, childhood patterns are usually more indicative of introversion/extraversion than adult behaviors. It's like when we're young the personality is more "pure" and we don't have any learned introverted or extraverted mechanisms.

There are exceptions, however.

My advice is to learn the difference between Ne/Ti and Ti/Ne. There's quite a bit of subtleties in there.

If you think the cognitive functions are nonsense, you can try reading Keirsey and try to figure out if you fit into the "Inventor" (ENTP) or "Architect" (INTP) role variant. Despite what people say, there's not a perfect correlation between classical MBTI and Keirsey's temperament theory, so you can be one type in one system and another in the other.

If you have any questions, ask!

 

[substitute]

I dunno Nemo. Sometimes kids who are a bit different get picked on and bullied a lot, and their behaviour is heavily distorted by the need to survive through that ("if I just stay away from people and be quiet and don't draw attention to myself when I have to be near people, then hopefully they'll leave me alone and not be mean to me"). It can be that it's not until they grow up and outgrow the negative and inhibiting effects of being bullied or put down for being different, and to accept and like their difference, that they begin to come out of their shell.

And if anyone's gonna be different from birth... heheh...

Just that this was the case with me and several other people I know... I know for me that I wasn't so much seeking solitude as seeking escape from the kind of environment where long sessions of tormenting me for arbitrary and stupid reasons were a likelihood. And also escape from the constant feeling of failure that came from trying, and failing, to fit in.

 

[ZiL]

Thanks for the speedy responses. Just as my thoughts are mixed, so are your answers .

I think the 'false introversion' was really down to just awkwardness, lack of confidence really in dealing with people, fear - more than anything to do with genuinely wanting to be alone a lot. Whenever I was alone, looking back, I did feel lonely and bored and wished I had a big load of friends to go out with all the time. And I WAS willing to sacrifice my alone time to do that. I just didn't know how to, and when I tried, it didn't go right.

Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. A large amount of my wanting to be alone could better be described as "wanting to avoid" certain situations. For some reason I was always getting into spots where I felt awkward and inadequate throughout school, so I would avoid out of pure fear. Lately I've noticed that if I go a few days without getting out or talking to anyone I feel lonely and bored. I have hobbies that I've always loved to do by myself, but when I have no one to share the results with, it starts to feel pointless so I stop and sort of mope around a lot, heheh.

I need time to energize alone sometimes, but on the other hand being around people often energizes me. This ain't easy. It's difficult because I'm only recently out of the grade school environment, so I don't have a lot of new experiences to go by like you've gathered, substitute.

Nemo, I read the Kiersey descriptions on kiersey.com, and stupidly enough, I can relate to both. I feel like there's a small disconnect with each however. I'm not as off-the-cuff in social interactions/work as ENTPs sound, yet I'm not obsessed with inconsistencies unless I need to be. I don't think communicating with me would be an uncomfortable experience at all (though I know that description wouldn't fly with mature INTPs). Once again, I wish I had more experience to work with. I guess maybe it'll become more clear in the future.

As for the cognitive functions, I think they're useful. Would you describe for me your conception of the difference between Ne/Ti vs. Ti/Ne? I've read various takes on it in other places, but I'm always looking for new points of view.

 

[ZiL]

I dunno Nemo. Sometimes kids who are a bit different get picked on and bullied a lot, and their behaviour is heavily distorted by the need to survive through that ("if I just stay away from people and be quiet and don't draw attention to myself when I have to be near people, then hopefully they'll leave me alone and not be mean to me"). It can be that it's not until they grow up and outgrow the negative and inhibiting effects of being bullied or put down for being different, and to accept and like their difference, that they begin to come out of their shell.

And if anyone's gonna be different from birth... heheh...

Just that this was the case with me and several other people I know... I know for me that I wasn't so much seeking solitude as seeking escape from the kind of environment where long sessions of tormenting me for arbitrary and stupid reasons were a likelihood. And also escape from the constant feeling of failure that came from trying, and failing, to fit in.

Until reading this I've never recongized how victimized I felt at times in childhood, lol. How sad. It started in like 1st grade and got steadily worse from there. It wasn't direct bullying or anything, just extreme alienation and inability to find "kindred spirits."

 

[JAVO]

Would you describe for me your conception of the difference between Ne/Ti vs. Ti/Ne?

I've recently allowed my Ne to take more of a role in my life, so I'm beginning to take a slightly more ENTP perspective. Here's my attempt to describe both cognitive functions from my experience, with some overdramatizing for humorous effect.

Ti dominant
Not very risk-taking or explorative because Ti cautions against this. I end up feeling like I don't get out enough and experience life because I'm always sitting quietly thinking about ideas or even new things to try, but rarely actually do these things. I think I'll read a book about hiking in Alaska and consider planning a trip there.

Ne dominant
I know what will happen, because I tried that already! I really need to be more careful and consider the logical consequences of my exploration of all possibilities. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut and think about things more before I say anything too! Sitting around just thinking about things is boring, and I don't like to focus on one thing for very long anyway! That Alaskan hiking trip last week was fun! Next month, I want to go to the jungles of South America!

 

[ZiL]

I've recently allowed my Ne to take more of a role in my life, so I'm beginning to take a slightly more ENTP perspective. Here's my attempt to describe both cognitive functions from my experience, with some overdramatizing for humorous effect.

Ti dominant
Not very risk-taking or explorative because Ti cautions against this. I end up feeling like I don't get out enough and experience life because I'm always sitting quietly thinking about ideas or even new things to try, but rarely actually do these things. I think I'll read a book about hiking in Alaska and consider planning a trip there.

Ne dominant
I know what will happen, because I tried that already! I really need to be more careful and consider the logical consequences of my exploration of all possibilities. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut and think about things more before I say anything too! Sitting around just thinking about things is boring, and I don't like to focus on one thing for very long anyway! That Alaskan hiking trip last week was fun! Next month, I want to go to the jungles of South America!

I'm familiar with these two mindsets. Especially familiar with the negatives of Ti. I feel as if I might have been in a Ti stranglehold for a while, really. I have spent, and still spend, a lot of time being mad at myself for not going out and doing. I'm good at sitting and thinking (Ti), but too much of that and I start to go insane and feel like I'm missing out on something vital. On the other hand, when I begin to be more open, especially when hanging out with people I know, I can get really hyper and worked up over ideas and connections (Ne), and though I enjoy the high I get from that immensely, later on I come back scolding myself for being too "out there" (Ti), whether it be an off-kilter joke I made or something I said that I feel may come back to haunt me. I worry how my more excitable behavior may effect others as well (Fe).

It's as if, in my heart I want to go to the jungles of South America, but I'm still trapped planning a never-to-happen trip to the 7-Eleven, and I hate myself for it!

 

[JAVO]

^ I could have written this post a few years ago. Now, Ti just rolls its eyes and lets Ne go on whatever adventure it dreams up.

I think I'm fairly clearly INTP, but am much happier being balanced.

 

[nemo]

I dunno Nemo. Sometimes kids who are a bit different get picked on and bullied a lot, and their behaviour is heavily distorted by the need to survive through that ("if I just stay away from people and be quiet and don't draw attention to myself when I have to be near people, then hopefully they'll leave me alone and not be mean to me"). It can be that it's not until they grow up and outgrow the negative and inhibiting effects of being bullied or put down for being different, and to accept and like their difference, that they begin to come out of their shell.

And if anyone's gonna be different from birth... heheh...

Just that this was the case with me and several other people I know... I know for me that I wasn't so much seeking solitude as seeking escape from the kind of environment where long sessions of tormenting me for arbitrary and stupid reasons were a likelihood. And also escape from the constant feeling of failure that came from trying, and failing, to fit in.

Definitely. Environmental factors can play a huge roll.

I feel awkward saying anything with absolute certainty, because this is a question I ponder myself a lot too. I have a hard time because I am an only child, and now it's hard to tell if I'm an Extravert with massive Introvert-like coping mechanisms from growing up and having to entertain myself, or if I'm simply an Introvert. It doesn't help that there appear to be multiple definitions of Introvert/Extravert, lol.

As for the cognitive functions, I think they're useful. Would you describe for me your conception of the difference between Ne/Ti vs. Ti/Ne? I've read various takes on it in other places, but I'm always looking for new points of view.

Sure.

This is a pretty simple-minded explanation, but whatevs.

In general, Ne/Ti will intuit the possibility in a situation, and then default to Ti to strategize how to bring it about. They look to reality first, realize the possible ways of changing it, and then logically work out how to make it real.

Ti/Ne is the other way around. They first attempt to understand the whole structural pattern that underlies a situation, and then use Ne to get a gist of what their understanding's impact on reality would be. They're more into discerning patterns and then working out their implications without necessarily altering reality.

If you want, I have a ton of info in my PM Inbox I could forward you, too.

Also, since I'm kinda-sorta in the same conundrum as you: read about Ti from a reputable source. Since I've been reading about Ti from legit sources of information, I've learned a lot, and a lot of what I would've guessed was Ne in myself was really Ti. It's an odd function, and there's a ton of stereotypes and misinformation about it on the net.

So yeah.

 

[SillySapienne]

Yay nemo!!!

Lol, someone who seems like the posterboy of ENTPness is none other than Samuel De Mazarin.

Having or "using" primary Ne, is like living in constant de ja vu, where everywhere, and everything seems connected-connected-connected.

Analogous thinking is used to process and integrate, "new" information.

The world consists of thematic constants, and it is fucking trippy.

 

[ZiL]

^ I could have written this post a few years ago. Now, Ti just rolls its eyes and lets Ne go on whatever adventure it dreams up.

I think I'm fairly clearly INTP, but am much happier being balanced.

How old are you? Unless it's a secret....::shhh:: Because I know that type isn't established until a certain age, and then of course starts to balance as time goes on. I'm curious how far along in the process you are.

Definitely. Environmental factors can play a huge roll.

I feel awkward saying anything with absolute certainty, because this is a question I ponder myself a lot too. I have a hard time because I am an only child, and now it's hard to tell if I'm an Extravert with massive Introvert-like coping mechanisms from growing up and having to entertain myself, or if I'm simply an Introvert. It doesn't help that there appear to be multiple definitions of Introvert/Extravert, lol.

Sure.

This is a pretty simple-minded explanation, but whatevs.

In general, Ne/Ti will intuit the possibility in a situation, and then default to Ti to strategize how to bring it about. They look to reality first, realize the possible ways of changing it, and then logically work out how to make it real.

Ti/Ne is the other way around. They first attempt to understand the whole structural pattern that underlies a situation, and then use Ne to get a gist of what their understanding's impact on reality would be. They're more into discerning patterns and then working out their implications without necessarily altering reality.

If you want, I have a ton of info in my PM Inbox I could forward you, too.

Also, since I'm kinda-sorta in the same conundrum as you: read about Ti from a reputable source. Since I've been reading about Ti from legit sources of information, I've learned a lot, and a lot of what I would've guessed was Ne in myself was really Ti. It's an odd function, and there's a ton of stereotypes and misinformation about it on the net.

So yeah.

Heh, yeah I'm an only child as well, and my dad was in the Navy so we moved quite a lot, I also forgot to factor that in. I was well prepared for people-avoidance in my later school years thanks to all that learning to entertain myself as a child - outside of school I could never sit still so I had to come up with a lot of coping factors. I'm just getting worse at it now.

Please do forward me that info you have, anything would be helpful. It really is difficult for me to decide whether I'm Ti or Ne dominant despite you all's helpful descriptions .

Yay nemo!!!

Lol, someone who seems like the posterboy of ENTPness is none other than Samuel De Mazarin.

Having or "using" primary Ne, is like living in constant de ja vu, where everywhere, and everything seems connected-connected-connected.

Analogous thinking is used to process and integrate, "new" information.

The world consists of thematic constants, and it is fucking trippy.

Yeah, I've seen his posts and they do scream ENTP to me. I'm not as exhuberant as all that, but then again, I've hung around INTPc a bit in the past and I don't feel like I fit in much there either. I actually prefer the ENTP.org boards out of all the type-based boards I've visited, though I barely get on there...they tend to be more playful which is more my style.

I might be a balanced INTP as JAVO said, but I also need some more life experience to go off of....

Once again, thanks for all your responses.

 

[substitute]

Took me a while to come out of my INTP disguise mind you. Some really sharp people were onto me like Jennifer, who maintained all along that I was an ENTP right from when I first turned up on INTPc thinking I was one. But in general it took me a while after embracing my E-ness (after putting up a pretty good fight to stay in the I-camp) before I became 'exhuberant'. Sometimes too much so, but then I can still go for long periods where I just don't feel very exhuberant at all. Specially when I'm tired, which I am a lot, lately. Or when I'm 'underlyingly angry' at something but too much of an emotional retard to figure out either that I am angry at all or what I'm angry at and why. So it just growls in the background of my consciousness somewhere and dampens all my usual flambouyance.

Takes an ENFJ usually, to tell me what's going on lol

 

[ZiL]

Took me a while to come out of my INTP disguise mind you. Some really sharp people were onto me like Jennifer, who maintained all along that I was an ENTP right from when I first turned up on INTPc thinking I was one. But in general it took me a while after embracing my E-ness (after putting up a pretty good fight to stay in the I-camp) before I became 'exhuberant'. Sometimes too much so, but then I can still go for long periods where I just don't feel very exhuberant at all. Specially when I'm tired, which I am a lot, lately. Or when I'm 'underlyingly angry' at something but too much of an emotional retard to figure out either that I am angry at all or what I'm angry at and why. So it just growls in the background of my consciousness somewhere and dampens all my usual flambouyance.

Takes an ENFJ usually, to tell me what's going on lol

I have an ENFJ, but he's been rendered functionally useless due to being in dire love with his girlfriend . So he's no help .

 

[substitute]

I have an ENFJ, but he's been rendered functionally useless due to being in dire love with his girlfriend . So he's no help .

Ah, I know that feeling. That's what's happened to my ISTP lately. And I've got like, loads of tool-type work that needs doing, too. Love, eh?

 

[Mondo]

I've been having a similar problem recently.
I think I may seriously be a somewhat self-conscious ENTP who doesn't get along with everyone.
I find that I get too tired and bored with too much solitude and usually light up when I am around interesting people. I am more like my extraverted friends in the sense that I genuinely enjoy parties and flirting.

The one thing that really is making me want to switch is that external validation is ridiculously important to me. I will only truly withdraw if I feel that my image is 'poor' and think about how I can re-invent my image. It's the one problem most people have with me since I show 'different sides' of myself depending on the situation. I can't stand any kind of rejection- it is a blow to my image, for a long time I considered myself to be pretty smart for making such an infallible image. I realize now that it hasn't been making me happy inside. It's a problem I've been having for a while and something that I've been trying to fix through becoming a scholar of psychometry.

As long as I'm well-liked by others, I am never actually worn out by them- I am just not a master of small talk. If a conversation is leading towards 'small talk' I will often direct it to 'large talk'.
I don't know of any Extraverted Rational who truly is a master of small talk and all Introverted Guardians seem to be masters of it (at least the ISFJs).

I am tempted to say that my Ne & Ti are about equal- in terms of cognitive functions, both serve me well.

 

[substitute]

the use of the phrase 'becoming a scholar...' is quite INTP-ish lol

but as for the rest of that, it all sounds ENTP to me, Mondo. Just like me really in many respects.

But I'd disagree that ENTP's aren't good at smalltalk. In fact I'm the one in my social circle that's always wanted at everything - people rearrange dates to get me to events, because when I'm in the mood I do the kind of smalltalk that's actually entertaining, as opposed to the boring kind where people say like

Hello, I'm Bob
nice to meet you, I'm Jake
So what do you do?
I work as a clerk in an insurance company
Oh really? How interesting
[thinks, no it's fucking not, can't we talk about blowing up shit on Grand Theft Auto?]
Well it keeps the wolf from the door. How about you?
I sell photocopiers
Oh er... is there a lot of call for that round here then?
Yes, why only last week I sold 7...

That kind of smalltalk is the sort that nobody, surely, really enjoys. They just do it to fill the awkward silences when they haven't the imagination to talk about anything else, or sometimes it's that they don't want to RISK talking about anything else.

I don't do it on purpose, I just can't help saying what pops into my head. Like

I don't work at all actually, I can't be arsed
Oh...er... well how do you pay the bills?
I dunno, I'm working on that one. But when I've finished the timber framed barn I'm building in the woods, I'm hoping to make it a carbon neutral home where I can home educate the kids
Oh. I sell photocopiers.
Great. What do you think's in these pastries? tastes like prawns and grass
I dunno, I haven't tried 'em yet
Reminds me of this thing once, right, where...
[other person is soon engaged in hilarious discussion of bad cooking we've been subjected to and our tactics for tactfully avoiding eating it]

edit - Oh, one other question: are you like, a teeny bit hyperactive? Like, stay up really late without noticing how late it is, like I am right now (3am) and then still get up early the next day, feeling like shit, but after the first coffee the rest of the day's just as if you'd slept 8 hours?

Or is that just me and my ENTP daughter?

 

[Mondo]

I definitely can hold up the second kind of small talk, as long as I get the idea that the person will appreciate the humor in the things I say. Those are the people I become great friends with.

Oh, one other question: are you like, a teeny bit hyperactive? Like, stay up really late without noticing how late it is, like I am right now (3am) and then still get up early the next day, feeling like shit, but after the first coffee the rest of the day's just as if you'd slept 8 hours?

I do that fairly often. There are many nights when I'm hyper and either partying/hanging out with friends/chatting with people/getting really into a good book. Depending on my mood, I can feel awake instantly even with little sleep.

 

[entropie]

Throughout school I could never find my niche, so I resorted to turning inward and valuing my alone time, as it was the only time where I could fully invest myself in my interests, as I had no one else to share them with.

Change "invest" into "invent" and:
Disregard any answer you got here, cause they will only make you think.

YOU ARE BIG TIME ENTP

There is only one way to cope with social anxiety and disharmony, you have to rely on your thinking side. This will never give you the closeness you seek, but it will help you to find out, who you really are.