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What Type is Honor?

five sounds

MyPeeSmellsLikeCoffee247
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hehe, i hope i'm keeping you riveted with all these unexpected twists. like throwing a T in there. maybe a Q next.

images
 

skylights

i love
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About Fe vs. Fi, I don't know if I have a clear understanding of what the difference is, but I don't automatically shift my values to be in agreement with the values/beliefs of people around me and then act like everyone who doesn't do that is an ass, if that's what you guys mean. I don't have time for such silliness.

:) am still considering it...i really don't think i'm socially astute enough to be esfj or enfj. like i do things that the people around me don't agree with and don't bat an eye about it. i would never shift my values to appease other people, and i feel like both of those types do that like they're being paid for it.

Fe is complex. A lot of the descriptions online really suck, because they say stupid things like "ExFJs don't have any internal values, they reflect the values of others"... and other such superficial and overwhelmingly inaccurate statements. The way I understand Fe and Fi is that Fe is a method of judging value that starts with looking outside yourself. It looks for the "in betweens" - feelings and values that pass between two people, between self and group, between group and group. It assesses the quantity and quality of relationships. It also, in tandem with Pi, creates "paths" for how to effect environmental change.

An example - my ESFJ mom is excellent in situations like going into a store to return a defective item. She will come out of the store with everyone loving her, her money back, and probably a handful of coupons. She knows how to get on people's good side and how to craft a solution that helps everybody. She always tells me that secretaries and assistants are the best people to befriend because they know all the information you need and how to get what you don't have - and they're often overlooked because people tend to seek those in the supposedly "powerful" positions instead. Mom's wisdom comes from both Si awareness of where information is kept as well as Fe empathizing - she can easily put herself in the secretary or assistant's shoes and understand what it feels like to have a lot of information at your fingertips but often be underestimated. So she connects with the gatekeeper person, and the gate is opened for her. Mom gets what she wants but also, very importantly, the secretary is left feeling empowered and positive.

ENFJ Fe is often a little more about strategy and mobilization. Have you heard the jokes about ENFJs being typical cult leaders? ENFJs are often excellent observers of people, and are very keen to human behavior patterns. As a result of Ni pattern detection, ENFJs have insight about what, how, when, and why people are likely to do what they do. They too can use their Fe judgment of feeling and value to get the most out of people situations. ENFJs in particular seem to have a gift for helping people behave in ways more aligned with their goals - perhaps why they often get called the "Mentor" or "Teacher".

Fi in contrast generally starts with the self and at other people's inner workings, instead of those "between" external, interpersonal places. Fi works mostly with internal emotions, personal needs, individual desires, and in cooperation with Pe tracks others' subtle changes in internal atmosphere based on external cues.

To be clear - using Fe doesn't mean shifting to be in agreement with others. More often - being that Fe users are ExxJs - it means that the Fe user will adjust their environment to be in line with their values - ie, they shift others to be in agreement with them! But even that's an oversimplification. Fe users have a gift for arranging external circumstances, especially situations involving people, to be conducive to everyone's goals. Depending on their enneatype and stacking, though, they may or may not be particularly hands-on, emotional, or pushy. My mom is a very practical sp/so, and she's not at all dramatic, histrionic, emotional, or the normal stereotypes. She's warm and very straightforward. She actually tests ESTJ. My ENFJ 3w4 so/sp friend is a little distant and tends to be more of an observer and leader than being super involved. Another ENFJ friend, probably a 2w1, is very organized and sweet. And then I had an ESFJ suitemate who was super emotional and super warm and super effusive and a little high-strung and totally 2w1. She's a 2nd grade teacher now and loving it. Lots of different shades of Fe.

As for ESTJ for you - maybe? You are a little like EJCC. I still think it's more likely you're Fe. Keep digging :)
 

Honor

girl with a pretty smile
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Fe is complex. A lot of the descriptions online really suck, because they say stupid things like "ExFJs don't have any internal values, they reflect the values of others"... and other such superficial and overwhelmingly inaccurate statements. The way I understand Fe and Fi is that Fe is a method of judging value that starts with looking outside yourself. It looks for the "in betweens" - feelings and values that pass between two people, between self and group, between group and group. It assesses the quantity and quality of relationships. It also, in tandem with Pi, creates "paths" for how to effect environmental change.

An example - my ESFJ mom is excellent in situations like going into a store to return a defective item. She will come out of the store with everyone loving her, her money back, and probably a handful of coupons. She knows how to get on people's good side and how to craft a solution that helps everybody. She always tells me that secretaries and assistants are the best people to befriend because they know all the information you need and how to get what you don't have - and they're often overlooked because people tend to seek those in the supposedly "powerful" positions instead. Mom's wisdom comes from both Si awareness of where information is kept as well as Fe empathizing - she can easily put herself in the secretary or assistant's shoes and understand what it feels like to have a lot of information at your fingertips but often be underestimated. So she connects with the gatekeeper person, and the gate is opened for her. Mom gets what she wants but also, very importantly, the secretary is left feeling empowered and positive.

ENFJ Fe is often a little more about strategy and mobilization. Have you heard the jokes about ENFJs being typical cult leaders? ENFJs are often excellent observers of people, and are very keen to human behavior patterns. As a result of Ni pattern detection, ENFJs have insight about what, how, when, and why people are likely to do what they do. They too can use their Fe judgment of feeling and value to get the most out of people situations. ENFJs in particular seem to have a gift for helping people behave in ways more aligned with their goals - perhaps why they often get called the "Mentor" or "Teacher".

Fi in contrast generally starts with the self and at other people's inner workings, instead of those "between" external, interpersonal places. Fi works mostly with internal emotions, personal needs, individual desires, and in cooperation with Pe tracks others' subtle changes in internal atmosphere based on external cues.

To be clear - using Fe doesn't mean shifting to be in agreement with others. More often - being that Fe users are ExxJs - it means that the Fe user will adjust their environment to be in line with their values - ie, they shift others to be in agreement with them! But even that's an oversimplification. Fe users have a gift for arranging external circumstances, especially situations involving people, to be conducive to everyone's goals. Depending on their enneatype and stacking, though, they may or may not be particularly hands-on, emotional, or pushy. My mom is a very practical sp/so, and she's not at all dramatic, histrionic, emotional, or the normal stereotypes. She's warm and very straightforward. She actually tests ESTJ. My ENFJ 3w4 so/sp friend is a little distant and tends to be more of an observer and leader than being super involved. Another ENFJ friend, probably a 2w1, is very organized and sweet. And then I had an ESFJ suitemate who was super emotional and super warm and super effusive and a little high-strung and totally 2w1. She's a 2nd grade teacher now and loving it. Lots of different shades of Fe.

As for ESTJ for you - maybe? You are a little like EJCC. I still think it's more likely you're Fe. Keep digging :)
A lot of what you said here resonated with me. I don't change my values, but I do change my environment as necessary because it gets toxic for me to be in a situation where my values habitually conflict with others'. So, I won't let other people change my mind, and if other people disagree with me on core values issues, then that's fine, but I'll leave and find a different group. And I often hear stories about ESFJs being the person in the office who is fighting for women to be offered maternity leave or equal compensation, and that is sooooo me.

Haha, your mom sounds awesome! The story about her and returning items at the store kind of resonates with me. I truly didn't mean to do it on purpose, but I ended up becoming friends with every member of the housekeeping staff in every dorm I lived in in college, which was strange because all of the other students ignored them. I didn't build relationships with them as part of a strategy; I just think it's common courtesy to ask people how they are, how their family is, what they think about the election and this and that. They lit up when I would ask them what their thoughts were, I guess because they're normally never asked, which I think is terrible! In the end, whenever I lost stuff or needed help, I could always ask them because they were friends of mine. On the other hand, I'm not able to create a win-win in every situation, and I do take polarizing positions on some things...
 
W

WALMART

Guest
lol. in my first job offer ever, the email said, "amongst the qualities we value, your tendency to easily slip into analysis..."

Jung wrote that for sensors, the 'actual' refreshed their minds, that to discover truths of reality were of principle importance. I'm not quite sure if you're going towards sensing with these comments of being an analyzer, or away, as if only intuitors are capable of thinking? :thinking:
 

Honor

girl with a pretty smile
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Jung wrote that for sensors, the 'actual' refreshed their minds, that to discover truths of reality were of principle importance. I'm not quite sure if you're going towards sensing with these comments of being an analyzer, or away, as if only intuitors are capable of thinking? :thinking:
No, no, I don't mean that only intuitives are capable of thinking...I meant that I easily slip into analysis mode to the point of being oblivious to reality. It's a very pronounced characteristic to the point of people commenting on it when they first meet me.
 
W

WALMART

Guest
No, no, I don't mean that only intuitives are capable of thinking...I meant that I easily slip into analysis mode to the point of being oblivious to reality. It's a very pronounced characteristic to the point of people commenting on it when they first meet me.

I see. But again, there is nothing written that evidences this folkloric notion. The most N of N's could be perfectly composed in reality, with the most S of S's being a complete ambiguity. The variances lie in other realms.

Hmm. ESTJ. I was thinking about something with a lead rational function, Te/Ti/Fe/Fi. Why do you think not Ti or Fi?
 

Honor

girl with a pretty smile
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I see. But again, there is nothing written that evidences this folkloric notion. The most N of N's could be perfectly composed in reality, with the most S of S's being a complete ambiguity. The variances lie in other realms.

Hmm. ESTJ. I was thinking about something with a lead rational function, Te/Ti/Fe/Fi. Why do you think not Ti or Fi?
sorry, i'm not super familiar with the cognitive functions. you're saying to consider types where the dominant function is Ti or Fi, meaning INTP/ISTP/INFP/ISFP? i'm quite disciplined and rely on routines. i'm terrible at adapting and prepare for everything in advance. i'm pretty clearly a J.
 

five sounds

MyPeeSmellsLikeCoffee247
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sorry, i'm not super familiar with the cognitive functions. you're saying to consider types where the dominant function is Ti or Fi, meaning INTP/ISTP/INFP/ISFP? i'm quite disciplined and rely on routines. i'm terrible at adapting and prepare for everything in advance. i'm pretty clearly a J.

If there's ANYTHING I know about honor's type. It's that she's a J :)
 
W

WALMART

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sorry, i'm not super familiar with the cognitive functions. you're saying to consider types where the dominant function is Ti or Fi, meaning INTP/ISTP/INFP/ISFP? i'm quite disciplined and rely on routines. i'm terrible at adapting and prepare for everything in advance. i'm pretty clearly a J.

Yeah, I didn't think so either, just curious about why you didn't think so. I'm still trying to figure out ways to differentiate Ti/Fi/Si/Ni in actual practice.
 

reckful

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Jung wrote that for sensors, the 'actual' refreshed their minds, that to discover truths of reality were of principle importance. I'm not quite sure if you're going towards sensing with these comments of being an analyzer, or away, as if only intuitors are capable of thinking? :thinking:

Well, it partly depends on what you mean by "truths of reality" and "analysis," but here's some of what Jung had to say about Se-doms:

Jung said:
His life is an accumulation of actual experiences of concrete objects, and the more pronounced his type, the less use does he make of his experience. In certain cases the events in his life hardly deserve the name "experience" at all. What he experiences serves at most as a guide to fresh sensations; anything new that comes within his range of interest is acquired by way of sensation and has to serve its ends. Since one is inclined to regard a highly developed reality-sense as a sign of rationality, such people will be esteemed as very rational. But in actual fact this is not the case, since they are just as much at the mercy of their sensations in the face of irrational, chance happenings as they are in the face of rational ones. ... Once an object has given him a sensation, nothing more remains to be said or done about it. It cannot be anything except concrete and real; conjectures that go beyond the concrete are admitted only on condition that they enhance sensation.
As for Si-doms: Far from being focused on "truths of reality," Jung said that Si-doms, together with the Ni-doms, were the most reality-challenged of the types. In describing what he referred to as "the reality-alienating subjectivity of this type," Jung said that an Si-dom "has an illusory conception of reality," and that the relation between the actual physical world and the Si-dom's perceptions of it is "unpredictable and arbitrary" — although "his lack of comparative judgment keeps him wholly unconscious of this fact."

No, no, I don't mean that only intuitives are capable of thinking...I meant that I easily slip into analysis mode to the point of being oblivious to reality. It's a very pronounced characteristic to the point of people commenting on it when they first meet me.

I see. But again, there is nothing written that evidences this folkloric notion. The most N of N's could be perfectly composed in reality, with the most S of S's being a complete ambiguity. The variances lie in other realms.

Just in case it's news to you, MBTI N's are the folks who choose the N side of questions like (from the current Step I MBTI) "If you were a teacher, would you rather teach (S) fact courses, or (N) courses involving theory?" and "Do you usually get along better with (N) imaginative people, or (S) realistic people?" and "Would you rather be considered (S) a practical person, or (N) an ingenious person?" and "Which word appeals to you most? (S) concrete or (N) abstract."

Decades of data support the validity of the S/N dimension as so characterized, and it's widely believed — including by McCrae and Costa, the leading Big Five psychologists — that it's basically tapping into the same underlying dimension of human personality as the Big Five Openness to Experience factor, which types people with items like (from the NEO-PI) "I often enjoy playing with theories or abstract ideas (N)" and "I find philosophical arguments boring (S)" and "I have a lot of intellectual curiosity (N)."

You're free to disagree with the MBTI's (and/or the Big Five's, and/or Jung's) conceptions of S and N if you like, but it seems a little silly to me for you to say "there is nothing written that evidences [Honor's] folkloric notion" that N's are somewhat more prone to find themselves lost in theoretical thought (at the expense of attention to reality) than S's.
 

Honor

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I see. But again, there is nothing written that evidences this folkloric notion. The most N of N's could be perfectly composed in reality, with the most S of S's being a complete ambiguity. The variances lie in other realms.

Hmm. ESTJ. I was thinking about something with a lead rational function, Te/Ti/Fe/Fi. Why do you think not Ti or Fi?
oops, i missed the first part of your post. i wasn't talking about being composed vs. being ambiguous. i'm a very composed person unless in extreme circumstances. i was talking about a tendency to rely on a data (S) vs. a tendency to find patterns in analyzed data (N). i've never really heard of an S being comfortable with complete ambiguity. the very nature of being S is about needing facts, evidence, data, etc.
 
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WALMART

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Well, it partly depends on what you mean by "truths of reality" and "analysis," but here's some of what Jung had to say about Se-doms:

As for Si-doms: Far from being focused on "truths of reality," Jung said that Si-doms, together with the Ni-doms, were the most reality-challenged of the types. In describing what he referred to as "the reality-alienating subjectivity of this type," Jung said that an Si-dom "has an illusory conception of reality," and that the relation between the actual physical world and the Si-dom's perceptions of it is "unpredictable and arbitrary" — although "his lack of comparative judgment keeps him wholly unconscious of this fact."

None of this precludes the object-oriented nature of sensing, which is intuition's primary deficiency and why they will likely be at odds reconciling the innervations of thought against the substance of reality.

Just in case it's news to you, MBTI N's are the folks who choose the N side of questions like (from the current Step I MBTI) "If you were a teacher, would you rather teach (S) fact courses, or (N) courses involving theory?" and "Do you usually get along better with (N) imaginative people, or (S) realistic people?" and "Would you rather be considered (S) a practical person, or (N) an ingenious person?" and "Which word appeals to you most? (S) concrete or (N) abstract."

Decades of data support the validity of the S/N dimension as so characterized, and it's widely believed — including by McCrae and Costa, the leading Big Five psychologists — that it's basically tapping into the same underlying dimension of human personality as the Big Five Openness to Experience factor, which types people with items like (from the NEO-PI) "I often enjoy playing with theories or abstract ideas (N)" and "I find philosophical arguments boring (S)" and "I have a lot of intellectual curiosity (N)."

You're free to disagree with the MBTI's (and/or the Big Five's, and/or Jung's) conceptions of S and N if you like, but it seems a little silly to me for you to say "there is nothing written that evidences [Honor's] folkloric notion" that N's are somewhat more prone to find themselves lost in theoretical thought (at the expense of attention to reality) than S's.

It's things like this: "I have a lot of intellectual curiosity" that frees me of wonder from where the perceived superiority of intuition comes from.

There are a lot of strange things going on in the dichotomies that are traditionally presented. For example, what is a theory but a collection of facts posited as a rule? Why should a sensor fail at conceptualization, when conceptualization's focus is of objective-based thinking?

I don't buy into many of the correlations presented post-Jung.
 

Honor

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None of this precludes the object-oriented nature of sensing, which is intuition's primary deficiency and why they will likely be at odds reconciling the innervations of thought against the substance of reality.



It's things like this: "I have a lot of intellectual curiosity" that frees me of wonder from where the perceived superiority of intuition comes from.

There are a lot of strange things going on in the dichotomies that are traditionally presented. For example, what is a theory but a collection of facts posited as a rule? Why should a sensor fail at conceptualization, when conceptualization's focus is of objective-based thinking?

I don't buy into many of the correlations presented post-Jung.
I don't either. The dichotomy is really about how much one relies on facts/data/evidence vs. pattern/impression/analysis.
 

pinkgraffiti

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Honor is typeless - transcends all types - bows only to truth and beauty (sorry i had to get it out of my chest, it's what comes to mind every time i read this thread title)
 

Honor

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Honor is typeless - transcends all types - bows only to truth and beauty (sorry i had to get it out of my chest, it's what comes to mind every time i read this thread title)
Haha, I wish. Nice avi, pink.
 

reckful

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[MENTION=16139]Honor[/MENTION] —

I've browsed some of your forum posts and I don't see any reason to doubt your N, F or J. Not far from the middle on E/I seems to fit, too, but I've got a mild I lean.

If you'd be interested in taking a Big Five test, the Big Five Inventory is free, and it's actually one of the more well-regarded Big Five tests (created and used by academics doing Big Five studies). And because, unlike a typical "forced choice" MBTI test, the BFI lets you choose in-the-middle or mildly or strongly for each item, it can arguably make a stronger claim that its results may have something to say about the strength of your preferences.

It's only 45 items long, so it's a relatively quick one, but only take it if you want to. I realize you may have had enough of tests for now and/or may not view the Big Five as a useful "second opinion" on your MBTI preferences.

PS: On the E/I issue...

I don't really have an inner circle; I treat every person I meet on the street like they're my best friend.
You didn't reeeeally mean this, did you?
 

Honor

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[MENTION=16139]Honor[/MENTION] —

I've browsed some of your forum posts and I don't see any reason to doubt your N, F or J. Not far from the middle on E/I seems to fit, too, but I've got a mild I lean.

If you'd be interested in taking a Big Five test, the Big Five Inventory is free, and it's actually one of the more well-regarded Big Five tests (created and used by academics doing Big Five studies). And because, unlike a typical "forced choice" MBTI test, the BFI lets you choose in-the-middle or mildly or strongly for each item, it can arguably make a stronger claim that its results may have something to say about the strength of your preferences.

It's only 45 items long, so it's a relatively quick one, but only take it if you want to. I realize you may have had enough of tests for now and/or may not view the Big Five as a useful "second opinion" on your MBTI preferences.

PS: On the E/I issue...

You didn't reeeeally mean this, did you?
Haha good catch! If I remember correctly, I said that in response to someone asking about my instinctual variant stacking, and I was talking about being a soc primary. I meant that I treat everyone as a potential best friend (i.e. a member of my group) and not that I open up that quickly or am super engaging with strangers. I'm not! Historically, I've been very shy and the more stressed out I am, the more I avoid social interaction. Also, I totally don't know why I said that I don't really have an inner circle because I do, haha!

Will take the Big 5 right now :)
 
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