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Sensing and Intutiting

edcoaching

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Jun 30, 2008
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752
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INFJ
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7
That doesn't sound like the groups of INTPs I've worked with or discussed projects with. They are pretty much always open to alternative ideas, even once they've reached a conclusion (ie probably never).

Your last phrase (probably never) is the key. They're actually dominant Judging types (Thinking is the function they use to come to judgments) but it goes on internally so the world, especially their teams, sees their Perceiving functions at work. When they do form their opinion--and some of our greatest INTP scientists and philosophers worked their whole lives on refining their theories--they tend to be quite certain about it...
 

Geoff

Lallygag Moderator
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Your last phrase (probably never) is the key. They're actually dominant Judging types (Thinking is the function they use to come to judgments) but it goes on internally so the world, especially their teams, sees their Perceiving functions at work. When they do form their opinion--and some of our greatest INTP scientists and philosophers worked their whole lives on refining their theories--they tend to be quite certain about it...

It's not a hallmark though. The hallmark is one of endless refining, and wanting to keep the theory open, and not wanting to form that opinion.
 

edcoaching

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I live with three S types, and I have noticed a very big difference between "me" and "them".

I'm the only one in this family who thinks about the consequences.

I was shocked when discussing with my mother and sister the told me that they never think about consequences and always live in the exact here and now.

Then I realized that the explanation is the simple thing that always pops up in MBTI.

S = present, facts
N = future, possibilities and ideas.

Thinking of consequences and precedents being set is often a strength of the Thinking preference.
 

Gabe

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Nov 17, 2007
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590
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ENTP
Another way of thinking about Sensing vs. Intuition is

Sensing: A powerful way of knowing not just what is but the way it's supposed to be. For example, Sensing types see the value in traditions, recognize how a room or desk or process can be most efficiently organized.

Intuition: A powerful way of knowing what could be. Whereas Sensing types are rightfully suspicious of hunches that come from nowhere, Intuitive types who are allowed to nurture that ability learn that their sense of what should change or what could be different or what to try that hasn't been tried before are often dead on.

edcoaching

Doesn't that have a bit of MBTI step two spin on it? I had an ESFP roomate my freshmen year in high school, and he was even more disorganized than me. I don't think an extraverted sensing preference neccesarily gives someone a drive to organize *things* in thier space, and I definately don't see that stemming from anything I know about Se.
Extraverted sensing types also seem to resist tradition.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
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ENFJ
Okay, an SP, an SJ, an NP, and an NJ are all new recruits to a job. They were all told not to press the red button. This is how all of them react:

SJ: Oh, it's that shiny red button. They told me not to touch it -- I trust them, it probably does something bad. Better not touch it. *goes back to work*

NJ: Hmm, a shiny red button. I wonder what it does? Considering where it's positioned, it's probably to an ejector seat. *goes back to work, but ends up getting his tie stuck in the copy machine because he wasn't paying attention and was too busy fantasizing about using the ejector seat on the SJ*

NP: Hey, a shiny red button! They told me not to touch it, but it's so interesting... It probably does this, or that, or that other thing, or that other other thing *daydreams all the possibilities of what the red button will do, but ends up never actually touching it or getting any work done*

SP: Ooh! the shiny red button! They told me not to touch it, but it looks so interesting... What does it do? Well, there's only one way to find out, really. *presses button*
 

Jeffster

veteran attention whore
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sx
Agreed, an SP isn't going to be keen on the value of traditional order.

Eh, it kinda depends on what kind of "traditional order" you're talking about. I mean, we're not too likely to follow a tradition because The Man tells us it's right, but we're quite likely to follow traditions that have been passed down to us but we've experienced enough to see the effectiveness of. I'm likely to follow a "tried and true" method of doing something if I believe that it works, and not feel a strong compulsion to change it.

Haphazard, I love your little story there. I can think of a time when I was around 11 or 12 or so where I did touch that shiny red button and got a painfully burned hand out of the deal! :blush: :)
 

prplchknz

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Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
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yupp
Okay, an SP, an SJ, an NP, and an NJ are all new recruits to a job. They were all told not to press the red button. This is how all of them react:

SJ: Oh, it's that shiny red button. They told me not to touch it -- I trust them, it probably does something bad. Better not touch it. *goes back to work*

NJ: Hmm, a shiny red button. I wonder what it does? Considering where it's positioned, it's probably to an ejector seat. *goes back to work, but ends up getting his tie stuck in the copy machine because he wasn't paying attention and was too busy fantasizing about using the ejector seat on the SJ*

NP: Hey, a shiny red button! They told me not to touch it, but it's so interesting... It probably does this, or that, or that other thing, or that other other thing *daydreams all the possibilities of what the red button will do, but ends up never actually touching it or getting any work done*

SP: Ooh! the shiny red button! They told me not to touch it, but it looks so interesting... What does it do? Well, there's only one way to find out, really. *presses button*

I tend to be part NP and SP in that situation, depending on circumstances I'll probably daydream about the button and imagine all these possibilities then after a few weeks of this I'll be like fuckit and press the button to see if I'm right.


factors I weigh before pushing the button how much do I like this job? do I need this job? what will be my likely consequence if I do push the button will I get fired or just a warning will I cause the end of the world? if it's too cause the end of the world doesn't matter if I push the button or not because someone will likely already have.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
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ISTP
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6w5
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sp/sx
I live with three S types, and I have noticed a very big difference between "me" and "them".

I'm the only one in this family who thinks about the consequences.

I was shocked when discussing with my mother and sister the told me that they never think about consequences and always live in the exact here and now.

Then I realized that the explanation is the simple thing that always pops up in MBTI.

S = present, facts
N = future, possibilities and ideas.
That doesn't ring true with me at all. I've always thought carefully about the consequences before I make any important decision (Ti) whereas my INFP mom goes with what she feels is right, regardless of the consequences (often with disastrous results :rolleyes: but anyways...)

I think this is pretty true to our respective types, too.

What edcoaching said about Se (presumably) recognizing the most efficient way to organize a room/system/etc is true for me as well. It's a talent I have, and one I enjoy using, although sometimes often I get distracted first...
 

edcoaching

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What edcoaching said about Se (presumably) recognizing the most efficient way to organize a room/system/etc is true for me as well. It's a talent I have, and one I enjoy using, although sometimes often I get distracted first...

And for the Se it might not be about keeping a room organized as much as turning a random gathering of friends into an impromptu Ultimate game with whatever is at hand, or taking an efficient approach to sandbagging a river, or turning a boring hike into an obstacle course for kids in tow, or recognizing the most practical way to help a friend when no one else knows what to do...

I've been married to an ESTP for decades and it's mostly when we're setting up a new space that I see the physical organization skill kick in, not everyday maintenance of that space. Moving stuff into a new, empty kitchen? He KNOWS the best place to put the silverware, pans, soap, etc. And even though he's not the primary cook (although our second date was his homecooked seafood dinner...) he's always right about such things...

edcoaching
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
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I've been married to an ESTP for decades and it's mostly when we're setting up a new space that I see the physical organization skill kick in, not everyday maintenance of that space. Moving stuff into a new, empty kitchen? He KNOWS the best place to put the silverware, pans, soap, etc. And even though he's not the primary cook (although our second date was his homecooked seafood dinner...) he's always right about such things...

edcoaching
I loved setting up our kitchen. It's carefully organized for the most efficient use. It actually irritates me a lot when anyone moves things, because it's always to a less optimal area....
 

edcoaching

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I loved setting up our kitchen. It's carefully organized for the most efficient use. It actually irritates me a lot when anyone moves things, because it's always to a less optimal area....

And one thing that never ceases to amaze me is what he can notice. For example, he has preferred hangers for different coats and comments when I take one. Usually he's selected appropriate hangers and it really makes sense but hangers are hangers to me until he points out the difference. He does not alphabetize spices or anything that detailed, but things like putting the heavier jackets on the wooden hangers rather than the first one I grab really does make sense...

edcoaching
 

Leysing

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Mar 21, 2008
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FiSi
Thinking of consequences and precedents being set is often a strength of the Thinking preference.

That doesn't ring true with me at all. I've always thought carefully about the consequences before I make any important decision (Ti) whereas my INFP mom goes with what she feels is right, regardless of the consequences (often with disastrous results :rolleyes: but anyways...)

I think this is pretty true to our respective types, too.

Hm. Well, maybe it's a Ti thing, then. After all, I'm half INTP.

:doh:
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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I rather dislike the term sensing to describe S functions and have as much disdain for intuition for N functions.

I also hate when people mention details and subtlety pertinent to S vs. N. The two amount to a greater amount of confusion than nearly any other in the study of typology.

Sensing attends the facts that are presented. Intuition attends the stream the data comes in on. Not the media it's carried on... its focus is on how everything is related to, or affects to everything, or usually, more accurately, anything else. This goes for both Ni and Ne.

It's extremely difficult to imagine all the implications of what I've just said, so I'll give some examples, and explain precisely how all four functions work.

I can't do it right now, so if I haven't posted in a day or so, someone PM me and remind me 'cause I might forget. Makes for a good flow y'know?

As a matter of fact, I think I might even use one of my favorite movies as a template, 'cause all four perceiving functions are adequately represented.
 

edcoaching

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I rather dislike the term sensing to describe S functions and have as much disdain for intuition for N functions.
Sensing preference and Intuitive preference are the terms preferred by the major type publishers. Unfortunately the words were brought to us via Jung and 80 years later we are stuck with them. Worse are the problems that result from Judgment/Perception (and the publisher preferred terms are Judging preference and Perceiving preference...)

Sensing attends the facts that are presented. Intuition attends the stream the data comes in on.

Linda Berens of 16types.com wrote in v30 n3 (2007) issue of the Bulletin of Psychological Type, quoted an Anglican minister in Australia, ISTJ, describing her experience of Si..."She really resonated with a book she had read about a whale making a deep dive, being pulled to explore the depths of what he had know was there and how it was like coming home. She said she was taking a risk to describe this to the class as she rarely talked about this deep knowing that is so hard to explain...sense of deep knowing is a universal knowing of how things have always been. When you perceive that, what a sense of certainty you have about the natural order of things, the sequence and, of course, what needs to be done next!...This is so much more than perception by way of the five senses."

She showed the article to Bob McAlpine of Type Resources, an ISTJ with decades of type experience. He replied, "One thing that is becoming clearer to me regarding Introverted Sensing is the emotional energy surrounding it (and all other introverted functions). What I am discerning regarding personal introverted Sensing is the more emotional the experinece is, the more vivid the image and the more difficult it is to acknowledge or accept another perspective. Universal introverted Sensing comes from such a deep place until it is extremely difficult for me to separate it form introverted Intuition. However, with introverted Sensing, there is a feeling of having been there before, as in the movie Patton when George C. Scott says, "Rommel, we have met here before." With introverted Intuition, I get no sense of having been there before."

The entire article does a wonderful job of letting Si's speak for themselves, which I think is key to accurate type descriptions. McAlpine has actively sought to gather panels of people with the same type preferences so they can work together to explain to others how their preferences operate.

Edcoaching
 

cascadeco

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9w1
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sp/sx
Thinking of consequences and precedents being set is often a strength of the Thinking preference.

I don't think it has to be a dominant or even auxiliary preference, though, for it to be a noticeable characteristic of a person.

Oh, and I totally do the hanger thing! Heavy coats go on thick hangers, as do pants. ;-)
 

heart

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That doesn't ring true with me at all. I've always thought carefully about the consequences before I make any important decision (Ti) whereas my INFP mom goes with what she feels is right, regardless of the consequences (often with disastrous results :rolleyes: but anyways...)

I think this is pretty true to our respective types, too..

It's not in my experience. I have always been cautious and with an eye on avoiding disaster. I also try to learn by other's examples and what I read in books, and to extrapolate what's been learned out to other things...etc.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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Edcoaching
I'm pretty sure -- and you'd be hard pressed to find someone on the site who disagrees -- that I know what I'm talking about.

I'd wager those preferences are for the sake of simplicity: Using several different terms to reference the same thing/concept is nothing but confusing.
 

edcoaching

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I'm pretty sure -- and you'd be hard pressed to find someone on the site who disagrees -- that I know what I'm talking about.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone in the world of type professionals that would disagree that I know what I'm talking about. There's a lot of info out there, lots of ways to interpret it. I'm always on the hunt for words from the people who've confirmed their type preferences that give information on how they experience the world.

edcoaching
 

Geoff

Lallygag Moderator
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It's not in my experience. I have always been cautious and with an eye on avoiding disaster. I also try to learn by other's examples and what I read in books, and to extrapolate what's been learned out to other things...etc.

Interesting. I'll look at examples etc to help me understand the principles... ideas.. but I'll find my own path. It could be that you are using well developed lesser function though.. and there is an ST face helping you learn from examples and books.. or at least absorb long enough to feed your intuition and values.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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What is this a challenge? Or do you think you're the awaited messiah of the typology here to save we wretches from the blindness we've endured so long?


Anyway, I'm not wrong. Intuitors use their eyes, ears, mouths etc. just as much as sensors do. Ergo, sensation is a poor term. Intuition isn't a great one either, since the very etymology of the word suggests that there's no dependence on sensory data. In fact, it strictly excludes it.

That is incorrect.

By depending too heavily on tired rhetoric we can easily lose sight of application and truths for supposed theory.
 
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