Double checking Enneagram type

[Infinite Bubble]

It doesn't sound weird, but interesting. I'm really curious about how you're thinking on this one, so... why?

I sometimes don't like to think about the purposeless of it. I can find it difficult to create value for my own existence. There may be some objective, larger "reason" for the existence of life forms, but as our own comprehension is concerned, there is really nothing to it other than the mechanical function of passing on traits to the next generation, to face the trials and tribulations of natural selection. We're just puppets for this passage really, but what I dislike most is: to what end? Why bother at all? But the reality is that questioning and reasoning is probably an entirely subjective trait that we have been given simply to survive. The universe doesn't need reason. It doesn't need to ask anything - why or how - it simply is. It is humans that ask and need the answers, except it has got to the stage where there aren't any, objectively speaking; it's simply an advanced development of natural curiosity that all animals are ingrained with. And humans seem to be under the illusion that we're important (at least, a lot of them do). Then we'll become extinct, and what of it? Absolutely nothing.

As you probably gather, I've been in existential crises before (like most people here, I'm willing to bet). It'll probably come back again sometime. I'm comfortable with the above, but sometimes I still have to sit and wonder: why bother at all?

Some of my thoughts; I hope it has answered your question.

That was interesting to read. I see a part of you being so future oriented in your thinking as a result of Te and Ni though. ENTJs in particular are quite the future planners, always thinking of the next step or move to make to finalize their plan. Inferior Fi could also explain your social anxiety since inferior Fi types often feel they got difficulties dealing with their personal emotions and how to relate to other people falling victim to the feeling that they are incapable of showing or feeling say, genuine empathy on the one hand, but on the other feeling so much sympathy/empathy that they don't know how to deal with it.

Perhaps I have overemphasized my planning somehow. I am utterly future orientated, but my planning isn’t completely step-by-step, often times it’s merely an outline. That said, when I read up about inferior Fi, it did seem quite plausible. It could be a cause of anxiety, but you don’t really hear of many shy, anxious ENTJs, do you (sorry to generalise here)? Usually they’re very confident and almost aggressive in their behaviour.

The problem I have with seeing you as a 7 core is that you don't seem to put so much steam in possibilities as much as I see you planning the next step. 7s can be very visionary and great planners but their thinking is ultimately much more scatter-minded compared to yours. Your thinking is more focused and in particular goal oriented.

I still really don’t think 7 is that high up to be honest.

When you think about the future, what are you thinking about? Also, what would you say is your current mental health level? Some things you wrote seem to suggest not that great. Did you consider if you are currently disintegrated?

Practically everything including my goals, thinking up new creative projects, advances in science and technology, the universe, humans in general etc.

And no, my health isn’t currently that good at all. I’m in a sort of rut where I cannot make progress with much of anything. I was going to mention that I mayb be disintegrated, but I must have forgotten. It could also be possibly why I thought INFJ at first (heightened tert-Fi).

Also if you don't mind asking but why do you think you're pathetic? Does it relate to a sense of weakness and if so, what kind of? Does this extend to the rest of humanity as well?

Yes, a sense of weakness. I hate having to bring up social situations so often, but it is usually during these that my absolute incompetence in being able to express myself and behave naturally is exposed, and that causes me to feel that way. No, it doesn’t extend to the rest of humanity. I’m not a misanthrope, even though I do find a large proportion of people annoying, and I do like people in general. (How can one automatically hate an entire species, without meeting barely any of them?)

 

[Animal]

[MENTION=17266]Infinite Bubble[/MENTION]

How long have you been studying enneagram? And why are you trying to find your type? What drives you to do this? And what brought you to this forum?


FYI, this is what brought me to a forum like this, exactly:

I’m in a sort of rut where I cannot make progress with much of anything.

When you say you can't make progress, are you referring to your projects and goals? If so, what are they, and why can't you make progress, if you don't mind sharing?

 

[Entropic]

I finally got access to computer and the internet so I can type up those longer responses as it's hell to try to use quote tags and such on the phone. So here goes:

I sometimes don't like to think about the purposeless of it. I can find it difficult to create value for my own existence. There may be some objective, larger "reason" for the existence of life forms, but as our own comprehension is concerned, there is really nothing to it other than the mechanical function of passing on traits to the next generation, to face the trials and tribulations of natural selection. We're just puppets for this passage really, but what I dislike most is: to what end? Why bother at all? But the reality is that questioning and reasoning is probably an entirely subjective trait that we have been given simply to survive. The universe doesn't need reason. It doesn't need to ask anything - why or how - it simply is. It is humans that ask and need the answers, except it has got to the stage where there aren't any, objectively speaking; it's simply an advanced development of natural curiosity that all animals are ingrained with. And humans seem to be under the illusion that we're important (at least, a lot of them do). Then we'll become extinct, and what of it? Absolutely nothing.

As you probably gather, I've been in existential crises before (like most people here, I'm willing to bet). It'll probably come back again sometime. I'm comfortable with the above, but sometimes I still have to sit and wonder: why bother at all?

Some of my thoughts; I hope it has answered your question.

I feel that this response is very 5-ish and captures the nature of 5 nihilism and sense of nothingness in a nutshell. There are certainly hints of avarice and greed in here as you seem to operate under the assumption that there should have been more than what actually is and this realization is the cause.

I also think this response is very Te-like in the way you structured your arguments, citing external facts and systems such as the evolution theory. I could buy cognitive introversion though as you do accept the existence of a subjective reality but I don't think those with cognitive extroversion must be blind to this although a lot of them are.

By cognitive introversion-extroversion I am referring to Jung's theory of functions taking on an introverted or extroverted attitude like Ni versus Ne which is different to the I/E axis you get on MBTI tests because cognitive introversion-extroversion determines whether your ego orientation possesses a bias towards the external and thus objective world, or the internal and thus, subjective world. Introverts tend to in general have an easier time seeing the world as subjective because it is a natural part of their thinking process since their dominant function is introverted and thus also subjective in nature.

Extroverts tend to in contrast often have issues understanding that the external world they observe as subjective since they are extroverted. They think this is all that is which is why they're objective because they tend to generalize rather than subjectivize. A good example of a person on this forum who expresses a clearly biased extroverted thinking that I know that you know of is Vilku. Pay attention to how he assumes that which he has observed is applicable in a universal sense.

Perhaps I have overemphasized my planning somehow. I am utterly future orientated, but my planning isn’t completely step-by-step, often times it’s merely an outline. That said, when I read up about inferior Fi, it did seem quite plausible. It could be a cause of anxiety, but you don’t really hear of many shy, anxious ENTJs, do you (sorry to generalise here)? Usually they’re very confident and almost aggressive in their behaviour.

What kind of outlines? Can you give an example of your psychobabble?

And I think it's the most important to realize that ENTJs are simply people with Te-N-S-Fi in terms of function order. There's no universal way ENTJs are going to be like or behave. Just because your dominant function is Te it doesn't mean you cannot suffer from social anxiety. I think the socionics description of LIE is a good example here with the results Fi in suggestive position might have:

LIEs long for close personal relationships where personal and private experiences can be shared easily in an atmosphere of mutual trust, sustained by shared sentiments and ethical beliefs that make external expression of emotions unnecessary. They are inclined to take first steps, but are not confident of their ability to correctly evaluate the existence or status of such a relationship, and therefore are attracted to persons who value clear and unambiguous personal relationships with others and who follow a clear set of ethical principles, which gives them credibility and makes them deserving of trust in the eyes of the LIEs.

LIEs tend not to consider whether people are friends or enemies or whether they feel good will or ill will towards them. Instead, they will be inclined to act right from the start as if the other person were a friend or an enemy based on their prior knowledge of what the person does. This makes it possible to mistake a friend for an enemy and vice versa. Only gradually do LIEs come to recognize what feelings others have for them, and there is always an element of doubt unless others express those feelings verbally and unambiguously and act in a way that clearly matches their stated feelings, over a sufficient period of time. LIEs are easily made insecure about the status of personal relationships and need frequent reassurance that the other person's feelings have not changed.

LIEs are sheepish about expressing their personal feelings about people ("I find you really interesting" or "I like you a lot"), but respond very well to these statements, as if they were unexpected treats. However, they will also consider whether the person's statements make sense or not: LIEs are far more confident evaluating other persons with Fi than with Fi.

Compare to Se:

ILIs are often characterized by their inertia. If left to their own devices, they may choose to do relatively little to interact with the outside world. When they do interact, they often find their activities empty and unsatisfying. To ILIs, life is characterized by periods of stimulation. True stimulation is spontaneous, and the intervals between periods of stimulation are often characterized by tedium, inertia, and apathy. ILIs are not very adept at finding new areas of interest, and may seek to continue to reproduce past experiences instead of moving on to new things. In order to break out of this cycle, ILIs require an active, external, spontaneous stimulus. This spontaneity allows the ILI to discover new experiences and escape from the confines of his own mind.

ILIs are also very indecisive. They may lack the ability to make important decisions, especially regarding their own future. ILIs do not always know what they want out of life and may have difficulty setting or achieving long term goals. In order to act, the ILI needs a clear, tangible signal from somebody who is well grounded in external reality and knows exactly what must be done in a certain situation.

ILIs may consider work-related or intellectual pursuits important in the long term, but not in the short term. Even so, losing himself in these interests will rarely suffice as a true replacement for the discomfort that he may feel at his lack of decisiveness or inertia.

Yes, a sense of weakness. I hate having to bring up social situations so often, but it is usually during these that my absolute incompetence in being able to express myself and behave naturally is exposed, and that causes me to feel that way. No, it doesn’t extend to the rest of humanity. I’m not a misanthrope, even though I do find a large proportion of people annoying, and I do like people in general. (How can one automatically hate an entire species, without meeting barely any of them?)

What do you like and dislike about people?

 

[Infinite Bubble]

How long have you been studying enneagram? And why are you trying to find your type? What drives you to do this? And what brought you to this forum?

I’ve known about it and lightly researched it for around half a year now. I would like to know my type because (as with Jung) I like that the theory can quantize the personality. The drive is just mere interest in the theory. I wouldn’t see any use for it in the real world, it’s just enjoyable learning about it and trying to type people I know. This lead to forums based on it, and I chose this site after lurking on it and PerC (although I disliked the atmosphere of the latter).

When you say you can't make progress, are you referring to your projects and goals? If so, what are they, and why can't you make progress, if you don't mind sharing?

Yes I am, but I'd prefer not to share honestly.

I finally got access to computer and the internet so I can type up those longer responses as it's hell to try to use quote tags and such on the phone.

Ha, bet it is!

I feel that this response is very 5-ish and captures the nature of 5 nihilism and sense of nothingness in a nutshell. There are certainly hints of avarice and greed in here as you seem to operate under the assumption that there should have been more than what actually is and this realization is the cause.

It was these kinds of thoughts that lead me to type 5. I don’t assume that there should be more than what is in reality - of course not - but I simply cannot find reason, and all humans need that (I'm no exception). The universe is what it is, no should or shouldn't, but that doesn't mean I like it. Besides, many people have existential crises; are they all greedy too?

I also think this response is very Te-like in the way you structured your arguments, citing external facts and systems such as the evolution theory. I could buy cognitive introversion though as you do accept the existence of a subjective reality but I don't think those with cognitive extroversion must be blind to this although a lot of them are.

Extroverts tend to in contrast often have issues understanding that the external world they observe as subjective since they are extroverted. They think this is all that is which is why they're objective because they tend to generalize rather than subjectivize. A good example of a person on this forum who expresses a clearly biased extroverted thinking that I know that you know of is Vilku. Pay attention to how he assumes that which he has observed is applicable in a universal sense.

I see the Te, but I think it’s more of a backup for the conceptions/ideas of Ni.

Introvert by this definition then. I also don’t see how one can think that what they’re seeing is completely objective, when considering the obvious biases of the human mind. Once this is taken into account, then we can start to mold a “reality” around the subjectiveness into something as close to an objective one composed of collective human experience.

I see what you mean about universal application. I'd like ideas to be universal and timeless, but it's simply impossible.

What kind of outlines? Can you give an example of your psychobabble?

Honestly, it’s difficult to pinpoint precisely, but I'll see the end point first, then the ways to get there, but not small details and every single little step. It mostly lingers as a concept a lot of the time.

And I think it's the most important to realize that ENTJs are simply people with Te-N-S-Fi in terms of function order. There's no universal way ENTJs are going to be like or behave. Just because your dominant function is Te it doesn't mean you cannot suffer from social anxiety.

I know that, it’s just that it seems more likely that I’m INTJ. Like Occam’s Razor. Although I’m now aware that once again I used Te to bring forward that exterior reference.

What do you like and dislike about people?

I believe people generally have good intentions, and just want to do well for themselves and survive. I don't blame us for some things like others do: "humans fucked up the planet, messed everything up" etc. I take for granted that people are nice and simply want to get on with their lives.

I dislike loud and impulsive people, I never know how to react to their randomness most of the time. Most people care too much about what I'd consider menial things, such as money, security, a good job etc. My future vision isn't like this at all; it's so I can do something for the world and affect it in some way. 3's basic desire to feel valuable and worthwhile fits. Also not independent enough; go too much with the crowd.

Related to the Se description slightly more. Indecisive about decisions I consider very important, and can get stuck on those, and have made what appeared to be the wrong one in the past. But normal decisions are made very quickly. I can get impatient with some people (although never show it). And apart from my mother, there is literally no one else that I am able to share personal feelings with. I don't really know about the friends/enemies part though.

One thing I'm not comfortable with is the whole narcissistic/arrogant theme. Not at all me. Back in school, some people - who didn't know me at all - mistook my shyness for arrogance. They were totally wrong. Those that do know me, also know it's almost a completely opposite trait to my actual personality. I'm actually sincerely modest about myself, and tend to underestimate as well.

 

[Burger King]

I don't see 8 at all guys. Maybe as a co-fix, but certainly not a core. Ya'll are reaching. The whole existential emptiness thing can be interpreted in so many ways and a lot of people confront it from time to time. I can see how by nature of fixation how the 5 pattern plays out, that nihilism would be attached to the type, but what he describes sounds like general philosophy rather than any innate psychological structure. If you want to link that to enneagram, then I can see that being the 3 line to 9. Type 9 is very much about nihilism in it's own way. - "I don't matter, so why should anything matter?"

[MENTION=17266]Infinite Bubble[/MENTION], does this resonate? ----> http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-forum-achiever/43628-ramblings-type-3-a.html

 

[Azure Flame]

stuff

You sound like another NTJ that's stuck between 6 and 8. Possibly a 3.

As far as being a nervous person in general, that could hint toward 6, or being an NTJ.

Somewhere in socionics it says the LIE's (ENTj's) are often timid on the interior but usually do a good job of covering it up.

If you're a 6: I would ask yourself, do you ever doubt your abilities? If you're very aware and confident of what you can and cannot do, you're not a 6.
If you're a 3: Do you ever take concern with who you associate yourself with or find yourself jealous of people who gain recognition for being their natural self? this could hint to 3.
If you're an 8: Do you have strange excessive habits when angry, such as blasting music too loud, speeding too fast, or going out and ordering way too much food? This points toward 8.

 

[Infinite Bubble]

I don't see 8 at all guys. Maybe as a co-fix, but certainly not a core. Ya'll are reaching. The whole existential emptiness thing can be interpreted in so many ways and a lot of people confront it from time to time. I can see how by nature of fixation how the 5 pattern plays out, that nihilism would be attached to the type, but what he describes sounds like general philosophy rather than any innate psychological structure. If you want to link that to enneagram, then I can see that being the 3 line to 9. Type 9 is very much about nihilism in it's own way. - "I don't matter, so why should anything matter?"

[MENTION=17266]Infinite Bubble[/MENTION], does this resonate? ----> http://personalitycafe.com/type-3-forum-achiever/43628-ramblings-type-3-a.html

Somewhat, except I'm not superficial/materialistic, and don't think I put on an image to do what I want. 3 disintegrating to 9 seems to fit very well though, I was thinking that could be my present state. It would make sense of the confusion.

Somewhere in socionics it says the LIE's (ENTj's) are often timid on the interior but usually do a good job of covering it up.

Doesn't really apply, in fact it's almost the opposite way round on many occasions.

If you're a 6: I would ask yourself, do you ever doubt your abilities? If you're very aware and confident of what you can and cannot do, you're not a 6.

I'm aware of my capabilities, but still doubt sometimes anyway, especially when comparing to others, or in the presence of competition. This is why
I often look very unconfident to others.

If you're a 3: Do you ever take concern with who you associate yourself with or find yourself jealous of people who gain recognition for being their natural self? this could hint to 3.

No to the first, but there may be a hint of jealousy, simply because my personality often means I get overlooked and forgotten, invisible; there are no hard feelings towards whoever gains the attention.

If you're an 8: Do you have strange excessive habits when angry, such as blasting music too loud, speeding too fast, or going out and ordering way too much food? This points toward 8.

Nah, when angry I usually just bottle it up; a lot of the time nobody could tell I was angry, except from being more snappy than usual.

 

[Burger King]

Somewhat, except I'm not superficial/materialistic, and don't think I put on an image to do what I want. 3 disintegrating to 9 seems to fit very well though, I was thinking that could be my present state. It would make sense of the confusion.

Did you read the link? The OP of that thread was arguing against the surface description (superficial/materialistic) and tried to go beyond that for a more fleshier perspective. But if you truly do not see any aspect of yourself that is image oriented, then 3 is out as core.

After reading your comments on this thread though, my final guess for you would be in the 1/9/1 space, likely 9w1. In my opinion, type 9 has the worst descriptions out of all the other types. It would explain the 3-6-9 connection (tritypes be damned) and your relationship to anger/boundaries/presence (gut center issues). You don't have the ease and expansiveness of the 8 in terms of your relationship to your environment, nor comfortable relationship with anger (expression being one aspect). Feeling invisible/being overlooked, bottling up anger, and philosophy seems to point towards 9. As for the 1 wing, it's just merely a vibe thing - prim, proper, refined, philosophical. There's an accidental humility to it all. So yeah, my vote goes to 9. It could be reverse too - 1w9 instead.

 

[Infinite Bubble]

Did you read the link? The OP of that thread was arguing against the surface description (superficial/materialistic) and tried to go beyond that for a more fleshier perspective. But if you truly do not see any aspect of yourself that is image oriented, then 3 is out as core.

Of course, just wanted to stress the point. It seems like a major theme for the type. I still say 3 is in the trifix, but probably not my core.

After reading your comments on this thread though, my final guess for you would be in the 1/9/1 space, likely 9w1. In my opinion, type 9 has the worst descriptions out of all the other types. It would explain the 3-6-9 connection (tritypes be damned) and your relationship to anger/boundaries/presence (gut center issues). You don't have the ease and expansiveness of the 8 in terms of your relationship to your environment, nor comfortable relationship with anger (expression being one aspect). Feeling invisible/being overlooked, bottling up anger, and philosophy seems to point towards 9. As for the 1 wing, it's just merely a vibe thing - prim, proper, refined, philosophical. There's an accidental humility to it all. So yeah, my vote goes to 9. It could be reverse too - 1w9 instead.

I can see being a 9. The connection with 3-6-9 seems to be a plausible explanation as well. I'll definitely consider it for my core. Perhaps 3 and 6 also being part of my trifix.

 

[Entropic]

[MENTION=17266]Infinite Bubble[/MENTION] I personally fail to see the 3-6-9 connection for you as core motivations/behavior. The vibes don't fit but I can't put it better than that currently. And core 9 is definitely out of the question to me. I've seen plenty of 9s, both healthy and unhealthy variants on this forum, and you don't strike me as a 9, not even a very insightful and healthy one. That you previously mentioned that your mental health isn't that good but you are capable of expressing this without romanticizing it is a strong argument against 9 alone. 9s tend to lack this insight by focusing on something pleasant since that mentality is a part of their pathology.

I definitely see you falling on the 5-7-8 axis. The question is the core.

 

[Animal]

If you're an 8: Do you have strange excessive habits when angry, such as blasting music too loud, speeding too fast, or going out and ordering way too much food? This points toward 8.

Nah, when angry I usually just bottle it up; a lot of the time nobody could tell I was angry, except from being more snappy than usual.

That description actually sounds more 8w7/7w8 ... 7w8 runs from their feelings through indulgence like excessive food or partying. As a teenager I used to blast music when I'm angry and I still like to do that and blow off steam at the gym while blasting music. But I definitely still get angry, but don't do that stuff as much anymore. 8w9 lets the anger boil up for a while and then has a big outburst.

That being said, [MENTION=17266]Infinite Bubble[/MENTION], I have seen other stuff that points away from 8. I'm sorry I haven't been answering each specific quote, but I'm just responding to what I feel could be pertinent to help me further so I can help you more... I'm also better at an "overall picture" than spelling out each detail (probably a Ne thing?) .... I'm really not sure about your type at this point ... *thinks*

Somewhat, except I'm not superficial/materialistic, and don't think I put on an image to do what I want. 3 disintegrating to 9 seems to fit very well though, I was thinking that could be my present state. It would make sense of the confusion.

It's hard to type someone when they're disintegrated so this definitely could explain some of the confusion. =/

 

[Animal]

I dislike loud and impulsive people, I never know how to react to their randomness most of the time.

Do you feel you need to react?

Most people care too much about what I'd consider menial things, such as money, security, a good job etc. My future vision isn't like this at all; it's so I can do something for the world and affect it in some way. 3's basic desire to feel valuable and worthwhile fits. Also not independent enough; go too much with the crowd.

Are you saying you're not independent and you go with the crowd?
What sort of crowd do you mean?

I can get impatient with some people (although never show it).

Why don't you show it?

One thing I'm not comfortable with is the whole narcissistic/arrogant theme. Not at all me. Back in school, some people - who didn't know me at all - mistook my shyness for arrogance. They were totally wrong. Those that do know me, also know it's almost a completely opposite trait to my actual personality. I'm actually sincerely modest about myself, and tend to underestimate as well.

Most 8s and 3s I know are openly assertive, and definitely at least a little vain. Would you say you're vain?

(That's different from "arrogant," though. I woulnd't consider myself arrogant, though I'm definitely more outwardly confident than many, even at my lowest.)



By the way, I hope I'm not asking too many questions. Feel free to ignore as many as you'd like. I remember how frustrated I got with questioning on my type-me thread.. lol. But I'm actually interested.. you seem like an interesting person and I am curious to see how it pans out =)

 

[Entropic]

You sound like another NTJ that's stuck between 6 and 8. Possibly a 3.

6? How so? Explain.

As far as being a nervous person in general, that could hint toward 6, or being an NTJ.

Anxiety could be the cause of many things and is not limited to the head types necessarily, and cognitive functions have absolutely nothing to do with anxiety at all.

Somewhere in socionics it says the LIE's (ENTj's) are often timid on the interior but usually do a good job of covering it up.

But emotionally holding back is not the same as being timid, is it?

If you're a 6: I would ask yourself, do you ever doubt your abilities? If you're very aware and confident of what you can and cannot do, you're not a 6.

Competency types also doubt their abilities. If they didn't they wouldn't be competency types.

If you're a 3: Do you ever take concern with who you associate yourself with or find yourself jealous of people who gain recognition for being their natural self? this could hint to 3.

4s are concerned with envy, not 3s. What you seem to describe is more a 4w3 thing than a 3 thing.

If you're an 8: Do you have strange excessive habits when angry, such as blasting music too loud, speeding too fast, or going out and ordering way too much food? This points toward 8.

I do this too and I'm not an 8.

In summary, I think you're trying too hard to connect behavior with motivations without realizing that behavior can a wide variety of motivations underlying them. Enneatype is about motivations, not behavior.

 

[Infinite Bubble]

[MENTION=17266]Infinite Bubble[/MENTION] I personally fail to see the 3-6-9 connection for you as core motivations/behavior. The vibes don't fit but I can't put it better than that currently. And core 9 is definitely out of the question to me. I've seen plenty of 9s, both healthy and unhealthy variants on this forum, and you don't strike me as a 9, not even a very insightful and healthy one. That you previously mentioned that your mental health isn't that good but you are capable of expressing this without romanticizing it is a strong argument against 9 alone. 9s tend to lack this insight by focusing on something pleasant since that mentality is a part of their pathology.

I definitely see you falling on the 5-7-8 axis. The question is the core.

Okay, I'll have to rethink. I don't think I care about having "peace of mind" actually. Internally, it's often quite stormy, and I prefer that to stability, that I'd find to be quite empty. I could be a 5 core, with 8 being part of the trifix, which would be still apparent in my personality.

It's hard to type someone when they're disintegrated so this definitely could explain some of the confusion. =/

Perhaps we can follow the line of disintegration? I don't think I've changed all that much though, even under stress. Except I lack motivation and am apathetic. Standard stuff really.

Do you feel you need to react?

Yes, I think it elicits an immediate response, but am unable to deal with it.

Are you saying you're not independent and you go with the crowd?
What sort of crowd do you mean?

Oh sorry, what I meant was a lot of people seem to have a need to follow the crowd. Suppose that's why it becomes a crowd in the first place. Too afraid of change, of doing things others don't (perhaps not fulfilling what they really want due to it being "different"), and generally following as it's the safe and secure option, that they knew it works.

Why don't you show it?

I generally dislike emotion-fueled conflicts. I'd rather wait and keep the relationship intact.

Most 8s and 3s I know are openly assertive, and definitely at least a little vain. Would you say you're vain?

A bit self-absorbed perhaps, but not vain, no.

By the way, I hope I'm not asking too many questions. Feel free to ignore as many as you'd like. I remember how frustrated I got with questioning on my type-me thread.. lol. But I'm actually interested.. you seem like an interesting person and I am curious to see how it pans out =)

It's okay, haha. Sometimes I get overwhelmed by longer responses, it takes me time to think of how to answer in the "correct" way, making sure what I say is completely true and relevant.

 

[Entropic]

Okay, I'll have to rethink. I don't think I care about having "peace of mind" actually. Internally, it's often quite stormy, and I prefer that to stability, that I'd find to be quite empty. I could be a 5 core, with 8 being part of the trifix, which would be still apparent in my personality.

That, or as [MENTION=17912]Vergil[/MENTION] pointed out as Maybe and I discussed in more private a potential for 1 core with a 9 wing. It's hard to say.

Perhaps we can follow the line of disintegration? I don't think I've changed all that much though, even under stress. Except I lack motivation and am apathetic. Standard stuff really.

Perhaps we can if you are willing to be open about what may have caused it.

Yes, I think it elicits an immediate response, but am unable to deal with it.

What does this mean?

Oh sorry, what I meant was a lot of people seem to have a need to follow the crowd. Suppose that's why it becomes a crowd in the first place. Too afraid of change, of doing things others don't (perhaps not fulfilling what they really want due to it being "different"), and generally following as it's the safe and secure option, that they knew it works.

This sounds a bit like an soc blind spot.

I generally dislike emotion-fueled conflicts. I'd rather wait and keep the relationship intact.

Why is that?

A bit self-absorbed perhaps, but not vain, no.

Makes sense.

It's okay, haha. Sometimes I get overwhelmed by longer responses, it takes me time to think of how to answer in the "correct" way, making sure what I say is completely true and relevant.

What does "correct" way mean to you? Although I already figured as much. Is it an anxiety of saying the wrong thing or is it an anxiety of revealing too much?

 

[Burger King]

[MENTION=17266]Infinite Bubble[/MENTION] I personally fail to see the 3-6-9 connection for you as core motivations/behavior. The vibes don't fit but I can't put it better than that currently. And core 9 is definitely out of the question to me. I've seen plenty of 9s, both healthy and unhealthy variants on this forum, and you don't strike me as a 9, not even a very insightful and healthy one. That you previously mentioned that your mental health isn't that good but you are capable of expressing this without romanticizing it is a strong argument against 9 alone. 9s tend to lack this insight by focusing on something pleasant since that mentality is a part of their pathology.

Really? I've seen the opposite on this forum actually, especially the insight part. Sloth shows itself in many ways, not just Disney Land perspective. I've seen so many 9s associated with emptiness, fallen from the holy idea - holy love. Not only this forum, but the more enneagram focused ones that I follow.

I definitely see you falling on the 5-7-8 axis. The question is the core.

If he was INTJ, then 5 would be apparent because it's a typical correlation. It would be so obvious, he wouldn't even need advice. I don't really see fear-based competence. Also, his relationship to gut center issues is loud and clear that he's not core 8. So that leaves 7. I'm interested to see an argument for this one. His persona is 3-ish in nature - refined, and no offense but almost contrived.

Oh sorry, what I meant was a lot of people seem to have a need to follow the crowd. Suppose that's why it becomes a crowd in the first place. Too afraid of change, of doing things others don't (perhaps not fulfilling what they really want due to it being "different"), and generally following as it's the safe and secure option, that they knew it works.

I disagree with LeaT on this one. This seems like higher social to me. Focus is still towards the people. Counter-social is still, in essence, social. Look where the focus is. It's not just this, it's what's said in the OP too that makes me think this. Blind spot = negligence/obliviousness. There may be a touchiness or looking down on it when confronted with it, but is it due to negligence or hyper awareness is the question.

Edit: You can decide for yourself OP, here's a good thread on instincts - http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27005#.UVhbgKLry-U

You don't have to read the whole thread, just find the parts about the instincts (spread throughout the thread).

 

[Entropic]

Really? I've seen the opposite on this forum actually, especially the insight part. Sloth shows itself in many ways, not just Disney Land perspective. I've seen so many 9s associated with emptiness, fallen from the holy idea - holy love. Not only this forum, but the more enneagram focused ones that I follow.

Did I mention Disney romantization? No, I didn't. Do 9s romanticize though? Yes, they do, because they are a positive outlook type. I've yet to see a strong positive outlook logic that is not 7-like from Infinite Bubble.

If he was INTJ, then 5 would be apparent because it's a typical correlation. It would be so obvious, he wouldn't even need advice. I don't really see fear-based competence. Also, his relationship to gut center issues is loud and clear that he's not core 8. So that leaves 7. I'm interested to see an argument for this one. His persona is 3-ish in nature - refined, and no offense but almost contrived.

Stereotypes. I don't think you can type people that easily by correlating to the MBTI. Also, I don't think you should type people base on persona. Enneagram is about motivations, not persona. People can exude a persona that is not congruent with their core motivations, especially on a forum and especially in a type me thread.

I disagree with LeaT on this one. This seems like higher social to me. Focus is still towards the people. Counter-social is still, in essence, social. Look where the focus is. It's not just this, it's what's said in the OP too that makes me think this. Blind spot = negligence/obliviousness. There may be a touchiness or looking down on it when confronted with it, but is it due to negligence or hyper awareness is the question.

It would only be social if he's making that comment in relation to wanting to be a part of the group which he made no indication of. Blind spot types can still be aware of their blind spot since it is indeed something touchy. The question just becomes whether this is something they pay focus to overall. I can make comments about groups without it suggesting I must be a social type.

 

[Burger King]

Did I mention Disney romantization? No, I didn't. Do 9s romanticize though? Yes, they do, because they are a positive outlook type. I've yet to see a strong positive outlook logic that is not 7-like from Infinite Bubble.

When you say "9s tend to lack this insight by focusing on something pleasant since that mentality is a part of their pathology," I'm inclined to think some sort of cartoon-ish perspective. The Disney comment being one representation of it. My point is not that though. It's the fall from the holy idea and his expression of self that he described that makes me think overall in the 9 area with 3 and 6 connection.

Stereotypes. I don't think you can type people that easily by correlating to the MBTI. Also, I don't think you should type people base on persona. Enneagram is about motivations, not persona. People can exude a persona that is not congruent with their core motivations, especially on a forum and especially in a type me thread.

Lets put it this way then, why would a 5, a type that's known for competence based fear, known for avarice - hoarding resources, info, etc, create a thread for others to help determine type for him? I would think an arrogance in one's own knowledge and ability makes them reluctant. Asking for advice is conceding in a way. Just my opinion. And what part of the gut center issue comment was a stereotype also? There's a certain pattern to how types manifest themselves and what he says speaks against it.

It would only be social if he's making that comment in relation to wanting to be a part of the group which he made no indication of. Blind spot types can still be aware of their blind spot since it is indeed something touchy. The question just becomes whether this is something they pay focus to overall. I can make comments about groups without it suggesting I must be a social type.

It is not whether they feel they belong to the group or not. It's that they define themselves in relation to the group.

Edit: Also, if we're talking about image types or image fix, whatever, then persona (the unconscious persona) is something to consider, provided they are not trolling.

 

[Entropic]

When you say "9s tend to lack this insight by focusing on something pleasant since that mentality is a part of their pathology," I'm inclined to think some sort of cartoon-ish perspective. The Disney comment being one representation of it. My point is not that though. It's the fall from the holy idea and his expression of self that he described that makes me think overall in the 9 area with 3 and 6 connection.

Yes, and I pointed out that I fail to see such evidence in the information he's provided thus far.

Lets put it this way then, why would a 5, a type that's known for competence based fear, known for avarice - hoarding resources, info, etc, create a thread for others to help determine type for him? I would think an arrogance in one's own knowledge and ability makes them reluctant. Asking for advice is conceding in a way. Just my opinion. And what part of the gut center issue comment was a stereotype also? There's a certain pattern to how types manifest themselves and what he says speaks against it.

Because a 5 might for whatever reasons for example desire help to understand themselves and the theory because they feel they are too incompetent to do so on their own? I've done type me threads and asked people for help typing me and I'm a 5. You can't use that as an argument against 5-ness. Then you're looking at behavior again, not motivations.

The argument for gut could go either way. There's not enough information because he is clearly withholding information, and that is quite stereotypically 5-like too. Which is why I asked why this is.

It is not whether they feel they belong to the group or not. It's that they define themselves in relation to the group.

I didn't say "feel they belong to a group", I clearly wrote: "in relation to wanting to be a part of the group". It even says so in the quote that you quoted. We are still aware of our blind spot and we can feel consciously averse of spending focus on our blind spot which can appear counter-culture too. The difference between the blind spot and non-blind spot is that the blind spot also tends to induce a sense of shame or similar because we perceive it as a weakness.

 

[Azure Flame]

6? How so? Explain.
Anxiety could be the cause of many things and is not limited to the head types necessarily, and cognitive functions have absolutely nothing to do with anxiety at all.

But emotionally holding back is not the same as being timid, is it?
Competency types also doubt their abilities. If they didn't they wouldn't be competency types.
4s are concerned with envy, not 3s. What you seem to describe is more a 4w3 thing than a 3 thing.

I do this too and I'm not an 8.

In summary, I think you're trying too hard to connect behavior with motivations without realizing that behavior can a wide variety of motivations underlying them. Enneatype is about motivations, not behavior.

I was trying to make some short generalized statements. His answers sorta paint a venn diagram in my mind and I'm starting to think 9.

[MENTION=17266]Infinite Bubble[/MENTION]...

do you ever feel like you have to remind yourself what our own goals are and detatch yourself from helping others with their own ambitions?