Double checking Enneagram type

[Infinite Bubble]

As, to me, Enneagram always came as a secondary, and somewhat lesser theory to that of Jung, I always just assumed I was righting thinking my type was 5w4 without being too bothered to delve any deeper into it. The more I think about it though, I'm not sure I'm as motivated by gaining knowledge for itself (like a 5) as I am accumulating it for being creative (which is my true motivator). I've thought about the possibility of being a 3, 1 or 9 too, but I doubt being a 2, 7 or 8. Tritype would be brilliant, but I don't think nearly enough information is here for that call. Cue the massive poll!

And a quiz from Personality Cafe:

1.What drives you in life? What do you look for?

There is really only one single thing that drives me in life, and that is being creative. I am creative in many forms – not just artistically – but thinking creatively in general.

2. What do you hope to accomplish in your life?

I want to be successful and well known in my fields. It would give me enormous satisfaction to show the world my creations. Think in new patterns to bring forward novel perspectives about things.

3. What do you hope to avoid doing or being? What values are important to you?

I do not want to be stuck in a rut, not doing anything day in and day out. I’m not bothered about building a family, but being generally inactive, not being motivated towards a bigger, better goal and being in a menial job position my entire life would be terrible.

4. What are your biggest fears (not including phobias)? Why?

What I just explained in the previous question. Apart from that, not much. I can be quite apathetic in that respect. My main problems are simply phobias, but they cause a lot of trouble. I’ve always had a strange fear of going blind ever since I was a child. If I were pushed, it would also be something to do with being in some kind of major illness/injury; such as being shot, having a limb cut off or having a tumour. I’m betting most people have a problem with all that too though!

5. How do you want others to see you? How do you see yourself?

Intelligent and good at what I do. I believe I have these qualities but they do not show up for other people to see very often. I’m naturally secretive and withhold a lot.

6. What makes you feel your best? What makes you feel your worst?

Completing or just starting a project makes feel good, as does having an interesting conversation with someone, typically about science/the universe etc. Having sudden doubt about where I'm going in the future and getting cutting comments from other people can make me feel pretty bad.

7. Describe how you experience each of: a) anger; b) shame; c) anxiety.

a) Anger for me comes in short, fleeting bursts about half a minute long. I also have a tendency to throw something at a wall, but that is only in a major circumstance, usually I just sit there quietly, awaiting its end.
b) I sometimes become ashamed of myself because I can see a lot of improvement needed and things to change.
c) Social anxiety means every time I go out I can get anxious. I’m a nervous person in general too. Normal symptoms of it occur, but occur it does; on a regular basis.

8. Describe how you respond to each of: a) stress; b) unexpected change; c) conflict.

a) I simply withdraw and brood. I identify the stressor and think how to deal with it. Perhaps look it up on the internet.
b) I like to know what is going to happen, or at least predict it so I know my plan of action. So a lot of times I dislike it, but still learn to adapt and live with it. (One has to, after all.)
c) This is wholly dependent on how well I know said person. With people I know well I do not back down, and usually "win", but those not so well, I'm very likely to back down, or be agreeable.


9. Describe your orientation to: a) authority; b) power. How do you respond to these?

a) I don’t mind authority at all. As long as you comply with some degree, it doesn't affect you personally. It doesn't mean
b) ‘Power’, the word in itself is vague. What constitutes as something that is powerful? Affecting something greatly over a large range? I suppose I can handle that, as long as it isn't something that will impact me negatively.

10. What is your overall outlook on life and humanity?

I’m fairly optimistic about my own life, but I’m known to be negativistic and cynical towards life itself and humanity in general.

 

[Infinite Bubble]

No one has a quick opinion judging from the above questionnaire results?

 

[Burger King]

3w4 so/sp

Emphasis on success, career, presentation, improvement. Not just in what you say in the questionaire, but your persona too. I don't see a lot of 1-ish resentment/frustration. I also don't see alot of 5-ish fear based competence. The social first because of your social anxiety - more focus/awareness/neurosis around it. Also the accomplishing something larger than self, the "show the world," be "well known," comments makes me think higher social.

a) I simply withdraw and brood. I identify the stressor and think how to deal with it. Perhaps look it up on the internet.
b) I like to know what is going to happen, or at least predict it so I know my plan of action. So a lot of times I dislike it, but still learn to adapt and live with it. (One has to, after all.)

This gives me the impression of a 5w6/6w5 head fix. Also, I saw the line to 9 somewhere, but too lazy to quote.

/my best guess

 

[Galena]

I voted the 6w5, one of my favorite types, and a creative one, too. It's a quick judgment, so I can't adequately explain or guarantee that it's a good judgment, but something about having a lot of energy that vibrates nervously and wants to be directed into something greater. Also about making a thread called "Double-Checking Enneagram Type"! However, those things could apply to a lot of types. This is just one to check out with the rest of the candidates.

 

[Infinite Bubble]

3w4 so/sp

Emphasis on success, career, presentation, improvement. Not just in what you say in the questionaire, but your persona too. I don't see a lot of 1-ish resentment/frustration. I also don't see alot of 5-ish fear based competence. The social first because of your social anxiety - more focus/awareness/neurosis around it. Also the accomplishing something larger than self, the "show the world," be "well known," comments makes me think higher social.



This gives me the impression of a 5w6/6w5 head fix. Also, I saw the line to 9 somewhere, but too lazy to quote.

/my best guess

I like your analysis. I was definitely thinking that 3 is one of my primary types, at least being in my tritype. Your reasoning behind high social is interesting. It might work.

I voted the 6w5, one of my favorite types, and a creative one, too. It's a quick judgment, so I can't adequately explain or guarantee that it's a good judgment, but something about having a lot of energy that vibrates nervously and wants to be directed into something greater. Also about making a thread called "Double-Checking Enneagram Type"! However, those things could apply to a lot of types. This is just one to check out with the rest of the candidates.

I do have anxiety, but wasn't sure whether Enneagram type had anything to do with it. Maybe it is an influence after all. I didn't know being directed to something greater was to do with 6, thanks for the information (if you are correct). You both mentioned 6w5/5w6 so that might be an indication that it is in my tritype.

 

[Entropic]

If you doubt 5, did you ever consider about 8? They have a line of connection that can confuse the more intellectual 8s. I doubt 5s would mistake themselves for 8s normally. Really though, the questionnaire answers aren't much to go on but I do think you're 3-fixed, yes. I do wish to add that some aspects do strike me as more 8-like in nature though. When stressed you research for example (disintegration to 5), and you make "plan of actions".

What are your opinions on sadism, lust, vengeance and emptiness?

Also, did you ever consider Te over Fe and if why, why INFJ?

 

[Infinite Bubble]

If you doubt 5, did you ever consider about 8? They have a line of connection that can confuse the more intellectual 8s. I doubt 5s would mistake themselves for 8s normally. Really though, the questionnaire answers aren't much to go on but I do think you're 3 fixed, yes. I do wish to add that some aspects do strike me as more 8-like in nature though. When stressed you research for example (disintegration to 5), and you make "plan of actions".

I never considered it because they seem almost the opposite, supposedly being assertive and confident. But now you mention it, when stressed I do withdraw like disintegration to a 5 or perhaps another "withdrawn" type.

I definitely think 3 is part of my trifix now, yes.

What are your opinions on sadism, lust, vengeance and emptiness?

I don't understand why anyone would enjoy inflicting pain on others, unless they trully hated themselves. Even then, it's no excuse to disrupt other peoples lives in such a way. People should not have to be the victim of somebody elses problems, and have to suffer for it.

I think lust is okay, but only to a certain degree, after which it could be harmful to said person and dangerous to those around them. Then it becomes a problem. I suppose in small amounts it could be used as a powerful motivator to reach goals; on the other hand, being overwhelmed by it might cause one to manipulate and hurt other people.

Vengeance is intolerable, because it shows that a person cannot let go of their negative feelings and simply let go. It's trivial and petty to harbor hatred for another person to the point of taking revenge. I think it's possible for anyone to let go of their feelings and get on with their life (and let the other person(s) to as well).

I dislike emptiness, but unfortunately it is something that often frequents my mind. It's almost default, and takes quite a lot for me to stop being that way. It is a bad state of mind because with usually comes a lack of motivation and depression, and of course they make for a very miserable life. Unfortunately I am like this right now quite a lot (which could be the reason why I believe myself to be a 5).

Also, did you ever consider Te over Fe and if why, why INFJ?

Definitely, as I consistently get INTJ every time I take one of the online functions test. I would have accepted it except I don't really see much Te. I thought perhaps social anxiety caused my Fe to be slightly undeveloped. I definitely relate to being an INJ more than any others though. Have you noticed examples of me using Te?

Oh, I almost forgot, assuming you voted for sp/sx, why that rather than so?

 

[Entropic]

I don't understand why anyone would enjoy inflicting pain on others, unless they trully hated themselves. Even then, it's no excuse to disrupt other peoples lives in such a way. People should not have to be the victim of somebody elses problems, and have to suffer for it.

I think lust is okay, but only to a certain degree, after which it could be harmful to said person and dangerous to those around them. Then it becomes a problem. I suppose in small amounts it could be used as a powerful motivator to reach goals; on the other hand, being overwhelmed by it might cause one to manipulate and hurt other people.

Vengeance is intolerable, because it shows that a person cannot let go of their negative feelings and simply let go. It's trivial and petty to harbor hatred for another person to the point of taking revenge. I think it's possible for anyone to let go of their feelings and get on with their life (and let the other person(s) to as well).

I dislike emptiness, but unfortunately it is something that often frequents my mind. It's almost default, and takes quite a lot for me to stop being that way. It is a bad state of mind because with usually comes a lack of motivation and depression, and of course they make for a very miserable life. Unfortunately I am like this right now quite a lot (which could be the reason why I believe myself to be a 5).

Hm, you misunderstood my question. I meant sadism as in relation to the E8 and how 8s are sadistic in order to cover their own sense of vulnerability, and vengeance/lust respectively because it's the passion of the enneatype and emptiness is sense of loss caused by the the holy idea, holy truth.

Do you for example black out entirely when stressed like your mind shuts down? Also, what situations make you angry and how would you describe innocence and vulnerability? What situations do you find yourself to be vulnerable in?

Definitely, as I consistently get INTJ every time I take one of the online functions test. I would have accepted it except I don't really see much Te. I thought perhaps social anxiety caused my Fe to be slightly undeveloped. I definitely relate to being an INJ more than any others though. Have you noticed examples of me using Te?

You simply don't give off an INFJ vibe. You very much give off a Te vibe. ENTJ vibe possibly even, if 8.

Oh, I almost forgot, assuming you voted for sp/sx, why that rather than so?

You seem too intense for an so/sp type.

I also wish to add that 5 and 8 are more similar than they appear to be due to the line of connection and 8 being the integration point for 5. Especially the sexual 5 is probably the most 8-like out of the 5 subtypes. I can come across as very assertive and people always seem to think I'm confident and have a high self-esteem. I'm also very competitive and can be aggressive in competitions.

 

[Animal]

I’m fairly optimistic about my own life, but I’m known to be negativistic and cynical towards life itself and humanity in general.

This sounds very E8 to me.

I'm an 8 and I mistyped at 5 for a very long time. After that, I mistyped at 3, too. I kept saying, "I'm not vengeful; I don't get pleasure out of people's pain! I'm not sadistic - I don't want people to suffer!" I could not possibly be an 8!

However I realized that 8s do this so naturally they don't even realize they're doing it. The foundation of the type is denial of shame - that's what sadism actually is. Instead of taking shame on yourself, you blame the other. Whether you actually enact revenge on them or not, the vengeful mindset: "He betrayed me, he deserves to be shamed" - is sadism. I'm not someone who starts fights - my sadism usually comes in the form of cutting contact or simply placing someone back into the anonymous "you don't exist to me" pile with all the other strangers in the world.

Do you feel you have a lot of shame? When do you feel it? Can you go into this more in depth? Have you ever been shamed by someone else?

The rest of your questionnaire also reminded me of mine. I'm all about creativity and my creative goals. My answers were longer, due to overactive Ne, but very very similar in essence.

Let me know if you're considering 8 and want to talk more.

I also see potential for type 3 here.

 

[Flatlander]

I definitely think I see an id type of some sort. Signs of both 7 and 8, I'd consider 7w8 and 8w7 for starters.

The possibility of 3 lingers in the background.

Would you be averse to filling out the longer questionnaire from PerC?

 

[Silveresque]

I see some 3, 4, and 5. If I had to guess from just this questionnaire, I'd say 3w4. You seem like a pretty driven person who feels a need to be making progress and to be successful.

 

[Infinite Bubble]

Hm, you misunderstood my question. I meant sadism as in relation to the E8 and how 8s are sadistic in order to cover their own sense of vulnerability, and vengeance/lust respectively because it's the passion of the enneatype and emptiness is sense of loss caused by the the holy idea, holy truth.

My apologies. I thought you were merely asking general questions. I don't think I am sadistic to cover vulnerability. I don’t understand what is meant by “holy idea/truth”.

Do you for example black out entirely when stressed like your mind shuts down? Also, what situations make you angry and how would you describe innocence and vulnerability? What situations do you find yourself to be vulnerable in?

I think yes, my mind does shut down when stressed. I don't think as clearly and become empty. Situations that make me angry are ones that I think are negative, but I have no control over their progression. So I’d have to deal with their outcomes without the ability to change it for the better. I’d say being in this kind of situation was vulnerability.

You simply don't give off an INFJ vibe. You very much give off a Te vibe. ENTJ vibe possibly even, if 8.

I think I'm INTJ. But let me know if you see dom-Te, but I doubt I am that.

You seem too intense for an so/sp type.

But couldn't high so be a source of the social anxiety?

I also wish to add that 5 and 8 are more similar than they appear to be due to the line of connection and 8 being the integration point for 5. Especially the sexual 5 is probably the most 8-like out of the 5 subtypes. I can come across as very assertive and people always seem to think I'm confident and have a high self-esteem. I'm also very competitive and can be aggressive in competitions.

I did not think that 5 and 8 were all that similar at all. I really must brush up on Enneagram! Thanks for the information. I don’t think people in real life see me as confident at all. It’s probably the SA, now that I think about it. I’m confident in myself/abilities though.

I'm an 8 and I mistyped at 5 for a very long time. After that, I mistyped at 3, too. I kept saying, "I'm not vengeful; I don't get pleasure out of people's pain! I'm not sadistic - I don't want people to suffer!" I could not possibly be an 8!

However I realized that 8s do this so naturally they don't even realize they're doing it. The foundation of the type is denial of shame - that's what sadism actually is. Instead of taking shame on yourself, you blame the other. Whether you actually enact revenge on them or not, the vengeful mindset: "He betrayed me, he deserves to be shamed" - is sadism. I'm not someone who starts fights - my sadism usually comes in the form of cutting contact or simply placing someone back into the anonymous "you don't exist to me" pile with all the other strangers in the world.

Perhaps I am an 8, but I don't think I deny shame that much. In fact, if I do something wrong, I can blame myself more than necessary for not being able to do it. I have done the whole “you don’t exist” thing before, if they did something personal, but not for very long usually. And doesn’t everyone at some point do that? In situations when something has gone wrong, and someone has blamed me for it, I have tended to reject it and tell them it’s their fault (even though in reality it was nobodies).

Do you feel you have a lot of shame? When do you feel it? Can you go into this more in depth? Have you ever been shamed by someone else?

I become ashamed of myself if I am incompetent at something that I thought in my mind, I could achieve. Lying to someone also causes shame; I do not like betraying people, and only lie if I really have to. My sub-par social skills make me feel ashamed because it gets in the way of goals, more than anything. I don’t think I’ve allowed anyone to make me become ashamed of myself, except perhaps being picked on back at school at some time.

I definitely think I see an id type of some sort. Signs of both 7 and 8, I'd consider 7w8 and 8w7 for starters.

I'm considering the possibility of 8, but I really do doubt 7. Could you elaborate on where you see this?

Would you be averse to filling out the longer questionnaire from PerC?

I would fill one out yes, but I do have a terrible time trying to elaborate on things. I say what I think needs to be said in a couple of sentences, but obviously it's not enough information for anyone else.

I see some 3, 4, and 5. If I had to guess from just this questionnaire, I'd say 3w4. You seem like a pretty driven person who feels a need to be making progress and to be successful.

I think that 3w4 is at least in my tritype. It seems to fit, even if not my primary.

To everyone: I was thinking 3w4, 8w9 and 5w6. But I'm not certain on the order. Does this seem viable?

 

[Entropic]

I'm on my phone so can't give an in depth answer but I see a case for 8w7 as core because you have a strong narcissist vibe. Then 3w4 and 5w6 or possibly 7w8 but you don't strike me as optimistic enough. That your mind shuts down during stress is a strong sign for 8.

Your reasoning is very 8 also and lust like with focus on getting what you want. I think your SA might be confusing you a bit. While SA could speak for soc, maybe you should consider sp blind spot?

 

[Animal]

3w4, 8w9, and 5w6 look plausible to me.

Your answers so far about shame, I can relate to all of them and my tritype is 8wX, 5w6, 4w3, but for a while I thought it was 3w4. I'd probably put you at 3w4 though.

Hmm.. I don't have time now to explain why your answer about shame is very 8 but I will go into it. I also "blame myself" and take responsibility for my mistakes, That's very different from shame. Shame is about knowing that you're inherently weak or there's something inherently wrong with yoU (at least in the image triad sense) while BLAME is what 8s do, and that blame also does tend to turn on yourself if you're an 8. I'll send over some text from Naranjo and other sources to demonstrate this if I can get it together later.

I do think your tritype is plausible. =)

 

[Infinite Bubble]

I'm on my phone so can't give an in depth answer but I see a case for 8w7 as core because you have a strong narcissist vibe. Then 3w4 and 5w6 or possibly 7w8 but you don't strike me as optimistic enough. That your mind shuts down during stress is a strong sign for 8.

I'll keep 3w4 and 5w6, but I really don't think 8w7 (more 8w9 in my opinion). My behavior is far from narcissistic in real life, so perhaps it's to do with my posting style.

Your reasoning is very 8 also and lust like with focus on getting what you want. I think your SA might be confusing you a bit. While SA could speak for soc, maybe you should consider sp blind spot?

SA makes things very confusing. It's probably why I thought INFJ at first. I always thought sp was highest, but perhaps it really isn't.

3w4, 8w9, and 5w6 look plausible to me.

Your answers so far about shame, I can relate to all of them and my tritype is 8wX, 5w6, 4w3, but for a while I thought it was 3w4. I'd probably put you at 3w4 though.

Hmm.. I don't have time now to explain why your answer about shame is very 8 but I will go into it. I also "blame myself" and take responsibility for my mistakes, That's very different from shame. Shame is about knowing that you're inherently weak or there's something inherently wrong with yoU (at least in the image triad sense) while BLAME is what 8s do, and that blame also does tend to turn on yourself if you're an 8. I'll send over some text from Naranjo and other sources to demonstrate this if I can get it together later.

I do think your tritype is plausible. =)

I see. I actually do relate to all what you said. Everything is applicable to me.

All there is to do now is figure out the core, and whether 8w9 or 8w7.

 

[Flatlander]

Alright, I'll point out the places I saw 7-like response.

1.What drives you in life? What do you look for?

There is really only one single thing that drives me in life, and that is being creative. I am creative in many forms – not just artistically – but thinking creatively in general.

Potential indicator, because 7's thinking pattern is planning, future-oriented, and can generally be considered creative.

2. What do you hope to accomplish in your life?

I want to be successful and well known in my fields. It would give me enormous satisfaction to show the world my creations. Think in new patterns to bring forward novel perspectives about things.

Seeking the new is 7-like, and the need to be successful/well-known could also indicate a narcissist edge.

3. What do you hope to avoid doing or being? What values are important to you?

I do not want to be stuck in a rut, not doing anything day in and day out. I’m not bothered about building a family, but being generally inactive, not being motivated towards a bigger, better goal and being in a menial job position my entire life would be terrible.

Entirely 7ish - not wanting to be stuck, goal orientation, needing to be heading toward a better future.

4. What are your biggest fears (not including phobias)? Why?

What I just explained in the previous question.

As pointed out, 7ish.

Apart from that, not much. I can be quite apathetic in that respect. My main problems are simply phobias, but they cause a lot of trouble. I’ve always had a strange fear of going blind ever since I was a child. If I were pushed, it would also be something to do with being in some kind of major illness/injury; such as being shot, having a limb cut off or having a tumour. I’m betting most people have a problem with all that too though!

Maybe. To me it indicates some sp orientation, but most of all, fearing the inescapable - again 7-like.

5. How do you want others to see you? How do you see yourself?

Intelligent and good at what I do. I believe I have these qualities but they do not show up for other people to see very often. I’m naturally secretive and withhold a lot.

Connection to 5 from whatever type. Both 7 and 8 have it.

6. What makes you feel your best? What makes you feel your worst?

Completing or just starting a project makes feel good, as does having an interesting conversation with someone, typically about science/the universe etc. Having sudden doubt about where I'm going in the future and getting cutting comments from other people can make me feel pretty bad.

Good stuff: Entertaining and moving toward the future. Bad stuff: criticism (7 also has a line to 1, and it can hurt the narcissist); failure of the defense of planning.

Still pretty consistent with 7.

7. Describe how you experience each of: a) anger; b) shame; c) anxiety.

a) Anger for me comes in short, fleeting bursts about half a minute long. I also have a tendency to throw something at a wall, but that is only in a major circumstance, usually I just sit there quietly, awaiting its end.

I saw this as a response from one of the types connected with 5. I might even pick 7, because the soul child is 5 - and the response is evocative of it.

b) I sometimes become ashamed of myself because I can see a lot of improvement needed and things to change.

And you're supposed to be perfect already?

The attitude might remind me of type 7 again, because narcissism would suggest you're great already and this represents another failure of the defense.

c) Social anxiety means every time I go out I can get anxious. I’m a nervous person in general too. Normal symptoms of it occur, but occur it does; on a regular basis.

Not sure it's meaningful in context, if it's a diagnosed anxiety. Maybe an indicator of social type.

8. Describe how you respond to each of: a) stress; b) unexpected change; c) conflict.

a) I simply withdraw and brood. I identify the stressor and think how to deal with it. Perhaps look it up on the internet.

Type 5 behavior. The only question in my mind is, if you're a 7 or an 8, is there a line from this to 1 or 2 as well?

What happens when you've identified the stressor?

b) I like to know what is going to happen, or at least predict it so I know my plan of action. So a lot of times I dislike it, but still learn to adapt and live with it. (One has to, after all.)

Optimist tinge here at the end; you adapt and live with it.

Also I'd note that with a strong 5-7 line myself, 'prediction' describes how I deal with change as well - I always want something in my head that would indicate where a situation could go, so I can know and deal with the alternatives. It's kind of like a combination of planning and foresight. I also get discomfited with unexpected change.

c) This is wholly dependent on how well I know said person. With people I know well I do not back down, and usually "win", but those not so well, I'm very likely to back down, or be agreeable.

Why is this, do you know? What are you thinking about people you know well vs. those you don't?

I might cite it as evidence for 8 but I want to know more first.

9. Describe your orientation to: a) authority; b) power. How do you respond to these?

a) I don’t mind authority at all. As long as you comply with some degree, it doesn't affect you personally. It doesn't mean

Indicative of the w6 off 7 if it's your core, in my opinion. Also pretty optimist-indicative, I might even say it sounds like something a 9-6 could say.

b) ‘Power’, the word in itself is vague. What constitutes as something that is powerful? Affecting something greatly over a large range? I suppose I can handle that, as long as it isn't something that will impact me negatively.

Again concerned with what will impact you negatively. Why? Can you think up scenarios that would impact you negatively, and how they would do so?

The overall concern looks 7-like but I'm unsure.

10. What is your overall outlook on life and humanity?

I’m fairly optimistic about my own life, but I’m known to be negativistic and cynical towards life itself and humanity in general.

Interesting. Can you justify/explain your view a little here?

 

[Animal]

I think yes, my mind does shut down when stressed. I don't think as clearly and become empty. Situations that make me angry are ones that I think are negative, but I have no control over their progression. So I’d have to deal with their outcomes without the ability to change it for the better. I’d say being in this kind of situation was vulnerability.

I copied this passage from here:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/showthread.php/32188-Enneagram-how-types-pay-attention

From the point of view of meditation practice, denial could be illustrated by the notion Don't let yourself think. This is a false practice, a mistake that beginning meditators commonly fall into when they first attempt to clear the mind of thoughts. In this false practice, the meditator does not really withdraw attention from preoccupying thoughts as they come and go, but instead attempts to block out thoughts with forced concentration on an interior blank space. The rigid focusing of attention on interior blankness has the side effect of blocking out the internal awareness of thoughts and other impressions. As soon as the meditator relaxes concentration on the mental blank space, thoughts rush in again, and it becomes clear that awareness has never really shifting away from the thinking state.
Bosses will recognize the "don't let yourself think" state of mind as a kind of controlled wall staring, which they are likely to find themselves doing when something painful needs to be buried. An Eight can wake up in the middle of having been staring at a blank wall or an empty tabletop for God knows how long and find that he or she has a hard time thinking. The Eight is perceptually blanked out. If the mental blankout had a voice, it would say, "nothing painful gets past the tabletop blockade."
One Eight described the lifting of denial as "like opening the curtain on a stage. Everything you've been fighting against is staring straight at you with the force of total truth. You're totally wrong. You're an idiot, you've made an unforgivable error, and you want to punish yourself for what you've done." The special problem with denied material is that it can emerge into awareness suddenly, and with great force, which, given the Boss's preoccupation with justice, precipitates a barrage of self-hatred and self-blame. In the case of the young athlete, he was either a hero or a killer, with no apparent middle ground between the two extremes.
Eights also report that the lifting of denial with respect to one incident can act as an interior wick that allows other examples of the incident to emerge, in a kind of chain reaction of memory. Eights say that once they perceive something bad about themselves, they also remember many other examples of that bad thing that they've done in the past.
Eights say that insight can act like a jack-in-the-box with a shocking punch. They open the box of an opinion where they believe themselves to be totally right, and the fact they have been wrong is so startling that they move into battle stance attention and cannot think of any compromise to cushion the insight. What was totally right has become totally wrong; and the need to punish wrongdoings is immediately turned against the self.

I did not think that 5 and 8 were all that similar at all. I really must brush up on Enneagram! Thanks for the information. I don’t think people in real life see me as confident at all. It’s probably the SA, now that I think about it. I’m confident in myself/abilities though.

5 and 8 can be similar because both are direct, straight-forward. There is also a line from 5 to 8 and from 8 to 5 and I think when it comes to enneagram, a lot of people don't realize how very prevalent those lines will be with every type. An 8 will have a line to 5 that makes them strategic, and have a "knowledge is power" way of thinking. The way that 5's integrate is that they go to 8 which makes them "do" instead of just "thinking," and this happens when they build up enough knowledge that they feel they can "do" without being vulnerable by doing it wrong or jumping into something when they're not informed. An 8 will impulsively "do," but in the middle of "doing," if things go wrong or theyre stressed or encountering problems, they'll approach it in a very 5ish strategic way.. like "what's the source of the problem, what are the options," very direct and strategic and probing.

Why don't you think people see you as confident? Have people told you this?

Perhaps I am an 8, but I don't think I deny shame that much. In fact, if I do something wrong, I can blame myself more than necessary for not being able to do it. I have done the whole “you don’t exist” thing before, if they did something personal, but not for very long usually. And doesn’t everyone at some point do that? In situations when something has gone wrong, and someone has blamed me for it, I have tended to reject it and tell them it’s their fault (even though in reality it was nobodies).

I'd say that 8's ''revenge" feels to the 8 like they're evening the score. This is how it works for me, anyway, if I really examine myself (it's not easy to see these things). For instance, I will feel like, if a lover betrays my trust a little while he's going through a rough time, like takes me for granted or doesn't come to my aid in a tough situation when I've been there for him or puts some other woman before me, I might continue to be there for him in his hard time (after letting him know I'm pissed) ... but then I might pull back emotionally a lot, and feel like he needs to grovel in order to win back my full attention.

As for whether "everyone" does the "you don't exist" thing, I'm not sure. For instance they say that a 2 who wants revenge will be more hot-blooded; they want to watch someone suffer and know that the other person feels their pain. It's more feeling based. An 8 just wants to have what he feels he deserves. If that means that the 8 'deserves' to not have to deal with this moron anymore, the 8 won't necessarily care whether they suffer or not. If the moron is in the 8's way, then he'll bulldoze the moron out of the way to clear his path. It's more "cold-blooded."

I've done things in the past that others might see as "cold" or "mean," but all I feel I'm doing is evening the score; getting what I deserve and what I earned. I've hardly ever started a physical fight or sat around plotting revenge on a person. If a person is a shit head enough to earn revenge, they're a waste of my time.

Don't know if that helps. =)

I become ashamed of myself if I am incompetent at something that I thought in my mind, I could achieve. Lying to someone also causes shame; I do not like betraying people, and only lie if I really have to. My sub-par social skills make me feel ashamed because it gets in the way of goals, more than anything. I don’t think I’ve allowed anyone to make me become ashamed of myself, except perhaps being picked on back at school at some time.

Oh god, I need to find my type-me thread on another forum because this is exactly what I wrote about shame. =p

Sadism is, someone else can't shame you. You have the power to decide when you should blame yourself for something or fix yourself. It doesn't mean you think you're perfect or you don't feel bad about what's wrong with you.

Sadism is literally this: You can't be shamed; instead you'll shame the person who tries to shame you.

I did not even see this in myself without a lot of introspection - but my family and close friends did. =(

I haven't been shamed by anyone since maybe 4th grade. By the time I got to middle school I was still being made fun of and tortured, but I thought the world is shitty and this is their problem and fuck em, I don't need them. I typed at 5 at first because of this kind of detachment.

I also can't stand being incompetent. And you saying you thought in your mind you could achieve it, but then you were incompetent, is actually very 8 or 7, because it's a feeling that you CAN do it; a confidence. 8s tend to over-estimate themselves. An 8 with a 5 fix would probably be quick to say "okay, I am actually not capable of this so I need to collect knowledge" - but nevertheless that would be the order of it, rather than a 5 who always feels unprepared and like he doesn't have enough knowledge to do something so he needs to collect more.

What you said about your sub-par social skills getting in the way of your goals, I've written this on the old forum (when I was mistyped at 5 and 3) more than I can tell you.. haha. It's the only reason I care about those skills - because they get in the way of my goals.

Would you say that a lot of this "shame" you speak of, is because something you're doing, or something you're not able to do, gets in the way of your goals? That is the case for me...

Naranjo refers to 8 as the Phallic-Narcissistic personality. The way I see it in myself, it's like I have this myopic goal-focus. I can literally see it as a phallus aiming for what it wants. If I'm not able to achieve/ acquire/ conquer what I want, then I reassess myself: what am I doing wrong to get in my own way? And that can register as shame because I'll be angry at myself for lacking these skills or for making whatever mistakes I made to obstruct my path. If you think about the way a teenage boy might pursue his crush, it's sort of the way my mind works with pursuing any goal. I write novels that can take years - I've ben working on a sci fi/ fantasy series for 20 years actually; I started it when I was 11. I can't achieve it all at once, and I have to take breaks for other goals, but I always feel like I'm "aiming" and I have to self-improve in order to get what I want, which is to get this idea out in a presentable fashion. I also recorded my own album and for various reasons it took 5 years (money, illness, changing band members, locations, etc.) ... but the whole time my focus was myopic and all of my decisions were about achieving that goal. If I fucked something up - for instance, being too hard or dictatorial with a band member- I might blame myself and re-evaluate myself to "prepare" so that next time I would not lose a band member in such a manner.

I'll give you more references as I can think of them. Feel free to let me know to what degree you can relate to any of this or if you need clarification. =)

 

[Infinite Bubble]

Potential indicator, because 7's thinking pattern is planning, future-oriented, and can generally be considered creative.

Well, my thinking pattern is absolutely future-oriented, it is in the future constantly.

Seeking the new is 7-like, and the need to be successful/well-known could also indicate a narcissist edge.

I only want those things because it's the only means to the end of showing the world my creative work, and hopefully be original, so people can enjoy it.

And you're supposed to be perfect already?

The attitude might remind me of type 7 again, because narcissism would suggest you're great already and this represents another failure of the defense.

It's impossible to be perfect, but what I meant was fix some very personal "flaws", which I'd really like to get rid of. Not narcissistic and see myself as far from great!

What happens when you've identified the stressor?

I simply think of ways to either get rid of it or change my view so that it doesn't seem so bad.

Also I'd note that with a strong 5-7 line myself, 'prediction' describes how I deal with change as well - I always want something in my head that would indicate where a situation could go, so I can know and deal with the alternatives. It's kind of like a combination of planning and foresight. I also get discomfited with unexpected change.

I relate, yes. I might have thought of a pre-determined outcome for something and how I'll act, then it'll twist unexpected and that's very disruptive for me.

Why is this, do you know? What are you thinking about people you know well vs. those you don't?

Simply put, SA means I become agreeable and shy around people I don't know, and be quite scared of conflict with them. But for those I am comfortable around, I can be very argumentative.

Interesting. Can you justify/explain your view a little here?

Just personal view. I just don't like the concept of life, as weird as it sounds.

I copied this passage from here:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/showthread.php/32188-Enneagram-how-types-pay-attention

Wow, that was very accurate for me. Very much relatable. Thanks.

5 and 8 can be similar because both are direct, straight-forward. There is also a line from 5 to 8 and from 8 to 5 and I think when it comes to enneagram, a lot of people don't realize how very prevalent those lines will be with every type. An 8 will have a line to 5 that makes them strategic, and have a "knowledge is power" way of thinking. The way that 5's integrate is that they go to 8 which makes them "do" instead of just "thinking," and this happens when they build up enough knowledge that they feel they can "do" without being vulnerable by doing it wrong or jumping into something when they're not informed.

But the 5 integrating into 8 seems more applicable here. I’ll think about doing, then once I know how to do it and have a plan set so the chances of it going wrong become diminished, it’ll be time to act.

An 8 will impulsively "do," but in the middle of "doing," if things go wrong or theyre stressed or encountering problems, they'll approach it in a very 5ish strategic way.. like "what's the source of the problem, what are the options," very direct and strategic and probing.

But then again, this fits too. That's annoying, haha.

Why don't you think people see you as confident? Have people told you this?

I misspoke when I said I was confident in myself. In most aspects, no I am not. Just in my creative abilities, and that's just about it. People have told me before yes, and at one point got help for raising self-confidence.

I'd say that 8's ''revenge" feels to the 8 like they're evening the score. This is how it works for me, anyway, if I really examine myself (it's not easy to see these things). For instance, I will feel like, if a lover betrays my trust a little while he's going through a rough time, like takes me for granted or doesn't come to my aid in a tough situation when I've been there for him or puts some other woman before me, I might continue to be there for him in his hard time (after letting him know I'm pissed) ... but then I might pull back emotionally a lot, and feel like he needs to grovel in order to win back my full attention.

I can actually think of some instances of me doing that, but only for a very shot while. Just enough to let them know I was hurt. Usually I just want to let the feelings go, unless it remains continuous.

An 8 just wants to have what he feels he deserves. If that means that the 8 'deserves' to not have to deal with this moron anymore, the 8 won't necessarily care whether they suffer or not. If the moron is in the 8's way, then he'll bulldoze the moron out of the way to clear his path. It's more "cold-blooded."

This doesn't apply, because I don't think I'm deserving or undeserving of anything, even if in my own head. Instead of "bulldozing", I'll instead try to simply block it out.

Oh god, I need to find my type-me thread on another forum because this is exactly what I wrote about shame. =p

Sadism is, someone else can't shame you. You have the power to decide when you should blame yourself for something or fix yourself. It doesn't mean you think you're perfect or you don't feel bad about what's wrong with you.

Yes, I definitely relate to this.

I also can't stand being incompetent. And you saying you thought in your mind you could achieve it, but then you were incompetent, is actually very 8 or 7, because it's a feeling that you CAN do it; a confidence. 8s tend to over-estimate themselves. An 8 with a 5 fix would probably be quick to say "okay, I am actually not capable of this so I need to collect knowledge" - but nevertheless that would be the order of it, rather than a 5 who always feels unprepared and like he doesn't have enough knowledge to do something so he needs to collect more.

In my mind I can see that it is definitely achievable, but I most certainly do not over-estimate myself.

What you said about your sub-par social skills getting in the way of your goals, I've written this on the old forum (when I was mistyped at 5 and 3) more than I can tell you.. haha. It's the only reason I care about those skills - because they get in the way of my goals.

Same, that too is the only reason I care!

Would you say that a lot of this "shame" you speak of, is because something you're doing, or something you're not able to do, gets in the way of your goals? That is the case for me...

It's because I feel incapable and sort of a pathetic human being, and perhaps I'll never achieve anything I would like to.

Naranjo refers to 8 as the Phallic-Narcissistic personality. The way I see it in myself, it's like I have this myopic goal-focus. I can literally see it as a phallus aiming for what it wants. If I'm not able to achieve/ acquire/ conquer what I want, then I reassess myself: what am I doing wrong to get in my own way? And that can register as shame because I'll be angry at myself for lacking these skills or for making whatever mistakes I made to obstruct my path. If you think about the way a teenage boy might pursue his crush, it's sort of the way my mind works with pursuing any goal. I write novels that can take years - I've ben working on a sci fi/ fantasy series for 20 years actually; I started it when I was 11. I can't achieve it all at once, and I have to take breaks for other goals, but I always feel like I'm "aiming" and I have to self-improve in order to get what I want, which is to get this idea out in a presentable fashion. I also recorded my own album and for various reasons it took 5 years (money, illness, changing band members, locations, etc.) ... but the whole time my focus was myopic and all of my decisions were about achieving that goal. If I fucked something up - for instance, being too hard or dictatorial with a band member- I might blame myself and re-evaluate myself to "prepare" so that next time I would not lose a band member in such a manner.

I'll give you more references as I can think of them. Feel free to let me know to what degree you can relate to any of this or if you need clarification. =)

That's right, always aiming for the end goal. Interesting as I also write and am keen on writing music. Thanks a lot, and yes I do relate. One thing though, is that I tend to procrastinate and become sidetracked quite often, so it's not always a constant push. I suppose everyone does to some degree though.

 

[Flatlander]

Just personal view. I just don't like the concept of life, as weird as it sounds.

It doesn't sound weird, but interesting. I'm really curious about how you're thinking on this one, so... why?

 

[Entropic]

That was interesting to read. I see a part of you being so future oriented in your thinking as a result of Te and Ni though. ENTJs in particular are quite the future planners, always thinking of the next step or move to make to finalize their plan. Inferior Fi could also explain your social anxiety since inferior Fi types often feel they got difficulties dealing with their personal emotions and how to relate to other people falling victim to the feeling that they are incapable of showing or feeling say, genuine empathy on the one hand, but on the other feeling so much sympathy/empathy that they don't know how to deal with it.

The problem I have with seeing you as a 7 core is that you don't seem to put so much steam in possibilities as much as I see you planning the next step. 7s can be very visionary and great planners but their thinking is ultimately much more scatter-minded compared to yours. Your thinking is more focused and in particular goal oriented.

When you think about the future, what are you thinking about? Also, what would you say is your current mental health level? Some things you wrote seem to suggest not that great. Did you consider if you are currently disintegrated?

Also if you don't mind asking but why do you think you're pathetic? Does it relate to a sense of weakness and if so, what kind of? Does this extend to the rest of humanity as well?