Questionnaire answers inside - Confident that I'm 5w4 but am not sure of my Type

[Vizzy]

I found a quote from an older thread that I think is relevant to this thread, in case you're still not sure about your type, Vizzy. I think this really helps put things into perspective.

Uh oh. I think I might have actually mistyped myself...again...

Anyways, I don't intend to make this thread about me. How do you relate to these examples? Are you still unsure about your type?

It's so interesting reading this conversation between you, blankpages and Seymour. All of you are so articulate and self-aware. There are so many overlaps, similarities and subtle differences that, in a way, it's made me less confident about "fitting in" a particular type. Of course, that's by no means a bad thing. I think part of me is hesitant to put "INTP" (or some other type) in my profile because I don't want this mission to end. I'd miss the constant questioning and turmoil.

And thanks for quoting Jennifer's post - a very personal one at that. Not sure if this is a similar enough comparison, but I'm happy to interact with little kids - playing and learning/building something with them whilst having enough fun. This is probably the child-like side of me. But wow, even as I say this, I realise it's all based on intellectual communication. I'm actually struggling to think of how I'd emotionally interact with the child, apart from trying to help them have a good time.
Anyway, my relationships with friends are mostly intellectually-based rather than on a purely emotional level. There is no one I could or would call up crying. I haven't allowed myself to get in a close emotional relationship with anyone outside my family. That must be why I don't feel like there's anyone I can consider a close friend and my INFJ friend would be pretty upset if she found out I feel that way.

As for Vizzy, I don't see her as any sort of FP type. I'm thinking definitely introverted, and probably TP or FJ.

I'm interested to know why you've ruled out FP for me.
By the way, I've had a closer look at the functions and perhaps the 2 types I should be focusing on are INTP and INFJ. I've actually considered the latter before but rejected it as I don't really trust intuition, though Ni sounds fascinating. The INFJ friend mentioned before says things like, "I don't know why but I have a bad feeling about this" or, after barely saying 2 words to a total stranger, "I don't like that man". This prompts me to ask her to explain why she feels that way or what particular signs raised those alarms. I feel a mixture of curiosity and annoyance...but mainly the latter.

 

[Xenon]

Boy, it's weird to have someone post something I never even remember writing.

I'm glad it was helpful though.

Well, I remember that post. I think you wrote that around the same time I first registered here. I was iffy about my INTP self-typing at the time, and I found it quite helpful too. So, a belated thanks for that. I was actually just thinking about it as I was reading the men and empathy thread; I recalled what you said about INTPs having a sort of "detached kindness". I thought that really fit me when I first read it.

Also, I relate to what was said there about needing a "template for what to do" or an "intellectual interface" to show your caring for someone. That's similar to what I meant above when I said I can feel awkward in emotional situations if I don't have anything of real substance to say. It's not that emotions frighten me or put me off; I just don't have a good sense of how to interact with them without something else to latch onto and help me connect.

[MENTION=14208]Vizzy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=14216]RevlisZero[/MENTION]: I do recommend continuing to read people's posts here if you aren't sure of your type; there's lots of good discussion about the cognitive functions and how people experience them. This played a large part in my own self-typing. (By the way, being a temperamental or oversensitive child doesn't mean you prefer feeling as a judging function, and I can sure attest to that.)

So...a few more thoughts on some other stuff that's been said.

I don't make mine based on emotions alone, but I admit that often what I feel and value on a "gut level" is the deciding factor (which is different from transitory emotion). Even so, I do try to validate things logically before deciding on a course of action.

...

Emotions are a guide in another sense, too, since acting against one's principles causes emotional distress or a sense of queasiness... kind of in the same way that acting inauthentically does. So in that sense, they are a guide to keeping your actions in line with your beliefs.

Wow. I can say that the bolded parts here feel particularly foreign to me, especially the part about gut level feeling and values that are different from transitory emotion. When I say I'm plenty aware of my feelings, transitory emotion is what I mean. I have my head/intellect/reason, and I have my transitory emotions that come and go, and don't really seem connected to any set of sound principles or anything. That's what I've always been thinking of when some questionnaire asks me if I make decisions based in feeling. So yeah...big difference here I think. Thank you for sharing all this stuff.

I don't do a lot of that specific kind of second guessing... but no idea if that's just me.

Yeah, I figured it seemed like a Ti thing, but it's hard to say for sure without hearing what some other types have to say about it. It seems to operate from a desire to deliberately separate your feelings and desires from your reasoning, which makes me think of the T function.

It's so interesting reading this conversation between you, blankpages and Seymour. All of you are so articulate and self-aware. There are so many overlaps, similarities and subtle differences that, in a way, it's made me less confident about "fitting in" a particular type. Of course, that's by no means a bad thing. I think part of me is hesitant to put "INTP" (or some other type) in my profile because I don't want this mission to end. I'd miss the constant questioning and turmoil.

Well, we have people who've been here for years and still can't decide what type they are, so feel free to question and doubt yourself and follow your thoughts in circles as long as you like.

And thanks for quoting Jennifer's post - a very personal one at that. Not sure if this is a similar enough comparison, but I'm happy to interact with little kids - playing and learning/building something with them whilst having enough fun. This is probably the child-like side of me. But wow, even as I say this, I realise it's all based on intellectual communication. I'm actually struggling to think of how I'd emotionally interact with the child, apart from trying to help them have a good time.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's funny because I'm a major dog person and I have no problem being just purely affectionate with them. It's just far simpler. But I can't do that with people. I can't explain what the difference is.

I'm interested to know why you've ruled out FP for me.

Based on what you've written here, you seem to relate to Ti far more than Fi. And you've given more evidence of this by saying you relate to Jennifer's post. If you were an introverted FP, Fi would be your dominant function, and descriptions of it should resonate with you. I do see a few answers that might indicate an Fe type though, and IxFJs sometimes have strong Ti use and don't come across as that feelerish.

So, is there anything I wrote that you did not relate to?

 

[Silveresque]

Hey, I found this quote by an INFP (Snail) on INTP Forum and it really helped me to understand what exactly Fi is like:

"I feel that my emotions are trustworthy. I use them to fine-tune my value system, which utterly rejects prejudices such as those GarmGarf mentioned. I do this by waiting until I have a feeling, then checking it against what I believe I should feel. If the two are not consistent, I re-analyze why I believe I should feel otherwise. If it does not make sense or is inconsistent with the rest of my values, particularly the foundations of the value system, I alter the value until it is properly aligned. If the reason makes sense and retains an internal consistency with the rest of the value system, I figure out why I am feeling inappropriately. When I discover the core of the error, I can work to change the spiritual flaw in order to change the emotion. I continue focusing on appropriate attitudes until the actual emotion aligns with the value system again."

This quote helped me figure out that what I thought was Fi was really Ti. I analyze in order to refine my value system, but I don't base my analysis on my emotional reactions. The result may be the same, but the actual process has that fundamental difference.

So what do you think? Do you use Ti or Fi? I hope this helps!

 

[Vizzy]

Thanks to the both of you.

I definitely relate to the "detached kindness" description. I'm not particularly close to any of my friends but I'd like to think that they all recognize and appreciate my brand of kindness. I'm the type who'd, out of nowhere, surprise an old friend (who I've barely kept contact with) with a sweet personalized handmade birthday present...and other low-key, behind-the-scenes type stuff.

[MENTION=14208]Vizzy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=14216]RevlisZero[/MENTION]: I do recommend continuing to read people's posts here if you aren't sure of your type; there's lots of good discussion about the cognitive functions and how people experience them. This played a large part in my own self-typing. (By the way, being a temperamental or oversensitive child doesn't mean you prefer feeling as a judging function, and I can sure attest to that.)

I'm glad to hear that. To be honest, I didn't agree with the website that described the ITP child as one who wouldn't indulge in fantasy or be overly sensitive. After all, many INTPs are 5w4's or, heck, a solid 4w?. This is where I think it's good to combine the Enneagram with MBTI to get a more well-rounded personality.

Based on what you've written here, you seem to relate to Ti far more than Fi. And you've given more evidence of this by saying you relate to Jennifer's post. If you were an introverted FP, Fi would be your dominant function, and descriptions of it should resonate with you. I do see a few answers that might indicate an Fe type though, and IxFJs sometimes have strong Ti use and don't come across as that feelerish.

I've been observing myself and my thoughts the past few days with the cognitive functions in mind. (There's lots of material to work with when you have a casual job in guest services!)
If we compare Fi wth Fe, the latter is much more evident in how I approach others...and even so, I'm not as interested in interpreting and delving in others' feelings as INFJs are. As for Ti/Fi, I shall elaborate below:

Hey, I found this quote by an INFP (Snail) on INTP Forum and it really helped me to understand what exactly Fi is like:

"I feel that my emotions are trustworthy. I use them to fine-tune my value system, which utterly rejects prejudices such as those GarmGarf mentioned. I do this by waiting until I have a feeling, then checking it against what I believe I should feel. If the two are not consistent, I re-analyze why I believe I should feel otherwise. If it does not make sense or is inconsistent with the rest of my values, particularly the foundations of the value system, I alter the value until it is properly aligned. If the reason makes sense and retains an internal consistency with the rest of the value system, I figure out why I am feeling inappropriately. When I discover the core of the error, I can work to change the spiritual flaw in order to change the emotion. I continue focusing on appropriate attitudes until the actual emotion aligns with the value system again."

This quote helped me figure out that what I thought was Fi was really Ti. I analyze in order to refine my value system, but I don't base my analysis on my emotional reactions. The result may be the same, but the actual process has that fundamental difference.

So what do you think? Do you use Ti or Fi? I hope this helps!

Thanks for bringing this quote here. I've read it again and again, and I think I understand how my thought process differs from Snail's. Still, there are too many "Ifs" in the description for me. I can't gather a solid-enough definition of Fi from it...or maybe I'm just dumb.
I accept my emotions matter-of-factly but I wouldn't say they're trustworthy.
In most situations, my reasoning seems to come first as if to give me the go-ahead to feel a certain way. Even if I start fuming because of a very late train, it's because "The train is late - again. It's SUPPOSED to come on time. I bought my ticket, it's expensive, and I'm not getting the service I paid for! I have a valid reason to be angry!"
Or if someone says something that offends me, my thought process would be, "Did she just accuse me of being incompetent? I had a logical reason for doing what I did. She had no idea what I was thinking. How dare she assume something about me, and correct me??" which will give me permission to respond with a sarcastic reply. (You know, the type of sarcasm they only notice long after I've gone.)
There are times I don't know which comes first though.

 

[Silveresque]

Hey, Vizzy! I think it's perfectly understandable if you're still not sure whether you use Fi logic or Ti logic. Sometimes it's hard to tell when you only hear one side of the story, so I decided to write one that represents my (hopefully Ti) form of logic:

I feel that my emotions are valid. However, I don’t feel that they are a particularly relevant consideration when fine-tuning my value system, which uses a more detached form of logic. I don’t have to wait until I have a feeling to analyze in order to ascertain my values. I detach myself in order to gain a broader perspective and to determine what is relevant. If something is irrelevant, I remove it from consideration. I analyze in order to find logical inconsistencies between established values, and if such inconsistencies are found, I attempt to test the values by considering all relevant factors, such as the implications of such values in various scenarios. My reasoning process includes questions such as “What if I were to consider this factor” or “What would be the consequences of such a value”, rather than “How do/should I feel”. If a value is found to have positive implications, it is considered justified. My feelings will usually be subconsciously altered during this process so that they are aligned with the value system.

 

[Seymour]

I don't find Snail's summary really captures my internal process that accurately, but I think she's farther towards the F extreme than I am (plus she identifies as a e1). I marked out the parts that don't resonate for me... although they might well resonate with the majority of INFPs:

I feel that my emotions are trustworthy [have understandable causes]. I use them to fine-tune my value system, which utterly rejects prejudices such as those GarmGarf mentioned [?]. I do this by waiting until I have a feeling, then checking it against what I believe I should feel. If the two are not consistent, I re-analyze why I believe I should feel otherwise. [] If it does not make sense or is inconsistent with the rest of my values, particularly the foundations of the value system, I alter the value until it is properly aligned. If the reason makes sense and retains an internal consistency with the rest of the value system, I figure out why I am feeling inappropriately. When I discover the core of the error, I can work to change the spiritual flaw in order to change the emotion [my understanding to align my feelings with what is correct] . I continue focusing on appropriate attitudes [analyzing the causes] until the actual emotion aligns with the value system again.

So I'd say I use my emotions more as a detection/warning system for when to analyze and examine something more closely, but not always as the final arbiter. Sometimes, my emotional response is entirely based upon a misunderstanding or false premise. Plus, there's not a whole lot "I believe I should feel," although I do value things like treating others fairly, being honest, treating people with respect and avoiding cruelty.

Still, there is a separate, longer-lasting, more holistic feeling of calm peacefulness about an issue which I'd separate from a transitory emotion.

 

[Vizzy]

Thank you both. I do relate to your version of Snail's post more, RevlisZero...but that may be because it's less fuzzy-sounding. Your revised version is helpful too, Seymour, if only to show that INFPs rely on a lot of analyzing too.

I have a little anecdote I'd like to share, and maybe you guys can tell me if it means anything.

Recently, I got fined for travelling without a valid train ticket. I was technically not a full-time student so wasn't eligible for concession fares. But I was undertaking an unpaid internship as part of my university course, which required travelling 5 days a week. So I was practically studying full-time although on paper I was 'only' doing one subject.
Most of my colleagues suggested that I just pay the fine and that I had no case because what I did was technically against the rules. I had my mind set on appealing.
I looked at the rules as stated by the government, but said, "to hell with that". What was the purpose of these concessions in the first place? To financially support students who had most of their time occupied by study with little (if any) time for work to support themselves. With this underlying reason in mind, I made my appeal - and won. (Well, I got off with a warning).

Of course, the main thing was that there was no way in hell I was going to pay that fine. Most importantly, I didn't believe I was wrong in the first place, especially when considering the original intentions of the concession/travel rules. Some may say I deserved that fine (and I understand the need for printed rules), but in some cases such as mine, common sense and good old reasoning needs to be considered. Not everything is black and white. Fairness isn't that simple.

So, does this little story say anything?

 

[Silveresque]

Thank you both. I do relate to your version of Snail's post more, RevlisZero...but that may be because it's less fuzzy-sounding. Your revised version is helpful too, Seymour, if only to show that INFPs rely on a lot of analyzing too.

I have a little anecdote I'd like to share, and maybe you guys can tell me if it means anything.

Recently, I got fined for travelling without a valid train ticket. I was technically not a full-time student so wasn't eligible for concession fares. But I was undertaking an unpaid internship as part of my university course, which required travelling 5 days a week. So I was practically studying full-time although on paper I was 'only' doing one subject.
Most of my colleagues suggested that I just pay the fine and that I had no case because what I did was technically against the rules. I had my mind set on appealing.
I looked at the rules as stated by the government, but said, "to hell with that". What was the purpose of these concessions in the first place? To financially support students who had most of their time occupied by study with little (if any) time for work to support themselves. With this underlying reason in mind, I made my appeal - and won. (Well, I got off with a warning).

Of course, the main thing was that there was no way in hell I was going to pay that fine. Most importantly, I didn't believe I was wrong in the first place, especially when considering the original intentions of the concession/travel rules. Some may say I deserved that fine (and I understand the need for printed rules), but in some cases such as mine, common sense and good old reasoning needs to be considered. Not everything is black and white. Fairness isn't that simple.

So, does this little story say anything?

If I were in your situation, I would have done the exact same thing, deciding that a rule that doesn't serve its purpose needs to be revised at the very least. Your story could be either Ti or Fi, especially since the two functions can mimic each other by achieving the same end result through different processes. This whole thread has been very interesting because it shows just how similar the two functions can be, and how they can appear identical on the surface while they in fact rely on very different forms of reasoning beneath the surface. That's why I'd like to start a new thread to analyze these two processes and find out just where one can draw the line, in order to help people determine whether their processes are Ti or Fi. I'll bring Snail's quote as well as my version into the thread to see how other Fi and Ti users relate to the descriptions.

 

[amerellis]

closest to ENFJ imo.