A CLUE! A CLUE!

[Ivy]

Let's put it in our handy dandy notebook! *DING!*

Okay, enough of that. I had an experience recently that made me wonder about myself. I was driving to my parents' house with the kids on Saturday, and since my shuffle was dead I was flipping through the regular old radio stations. The Classical Station (awesome station btw, highly recommended- they broadcast here and they also stream on the web) was playing Aaron Copland's Appalachian Spring Suite, which I dearly love. So I cranked it up, ignored the children, and proceeded to weep like a little girl.

I don't know what happened, but I can't say it was an unusual reaction for me. I am a cryer, and not just at sad stuff. I crave that deep, physical experience of feeling emotion, and it's one reason I love music. (It's also one reason I stopped going to church, because it alarmed me that I didn't think I was truly present unless I was emotionally moved.)

There's a lot about this particular music that makes me feel strong feelings. Some of it I can't put into words. (I think that's one reason music exists- to express feelings we can't express with words.) It gives me a wistful, joy/sorrow feeling. The passage starting at about 3:10 or so just kills me and I don't understand why.

Here are a few of the things about my reaction to the music that I can identify. Maybe they are clues to my type.

*It reminds me of my mother, as it's one of her favorite pieces too and she adores Copland. She used to sing the hymn Copland used for the melody in the variations section (the first part of that link above, although it's well into the actual piece) to me and my younger siblings as a lullabye and I sing it to my children now. It makes me feel fondly toward her and at the same time gives me a bittersweet, melancholy feeling because I know I won't always have her.

*It reminds me of my time at a Quaker school (the melody is from a traditional Shaker hymn, Simple Gifts, the one my mother sang, and which we sang there at the school). Being at that school, quite literally, shaped me into the person I am today. I don't know who I would be without that experience. Not only was I free for the first time from grades, heavy top-down discipline, and stuff like that- but I felt truly respected and admired by adults, instead of patronized or consumed.

*The lyrics to the song are beautiful and moving to me:

'Tis a gift to be simple
'Tis a gift to be free
'Tis a gift to come 'round where we ought to be
And when we find ourselves in a place just right
We will be in the valley of love and delight

When true simplicity is gained
To bow and to bend, we will not be ashamed
To turn and to turn, it will be our delight
'Til by turning and turning, we come 'round right

Simplicity, earnestness, and no-bullshit. These are ideals I try to live by.

*It makes me think about the genius and heart of the man who wrote the music. (I was fortunate to take a music appreciation class with one of his students who teaches at UNC.)

And that's about it. If you can still stand to look me in the eye, tell me what you think this means about my personality!

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

I dunno. That seemed like a very intuitive post. The organization of your posts always seems kinda T to me. Still, I can see the NF/SJ aspect here and there.

Glad to be of service.

 

[Ivy]

I dunno. That seemed like a very intuitive post. The organization of your posts always seems kinda T to me. Still, I can see the NF/SJ aspect here and there.

Glad to be of service.

Maybe what you're seeing as T is actually J? I don't feel very J because I don't like being nailed down and I resist finalizing stuff, but maybe I'm wrong about what J means.

To me, the nostalgia/sentimentality stuff is what makes me think ISFJ. Things remind me of times in my past when I was happy (or not) and that's how I often relate to the world. Perhaps to the point that I would call it my dominant function. Still, is that Fi? And isn't Fi an INFP thing?

 

[RDF]

Crying women scare me.

 

[Ivy]

Crying women scare me.

According to someone I live with who was once also frightened by crying women, you get used to it after you figure out it's not the end of the world.

 

[heart]

Maybe what you're seeing as T is actually J? I don't feel very J because I don't like being nailed down and I resist finalizing stuff, but maybe I'm wrong about what J means.

To me, the nostalgia/sentimentality stuff is what makes me think ISFJ. Things remind me of times in my past when I was happy (or not) and that's how I often relate to the world. Perhaps to the point that I would call it my dominant function. Still, is that Fi? And isn't Fi an INFP thing?

I get hung up, side tracked and paralyzed by nostalgia and that makes me think it is tertitary thing for me, not really coming from Fi.

I don't know if that helps you or not though.

Edit to add: I rarely cry. I have only cried in front of two people in my whole life.

I do get overwhelmed with emotion by music and lyrics. I will sit and listen to a song over and over and over and get a high off the emotion it gives me. It stimulates my creativity, makes my heart feel like it is soaring and expanding and in the right mood can achieve something like a religious experience type euphoria.

The music more engenders in me a panorama of possiblities and thoughts, new perspectives on old issues.

 

[Martoon]

Being at that school, quite literally, shaped me into the person I am today.

Quite literally, you say? What shape are you, exactly? Some type of Quaker shape, I assume.

Okay, now that I'm done abusing you, an actual comment on your post.


To me, that craving deep emotion, and being hit with a melancholy rush from certain sensory experiences, strikes me as a T characteristic.

It's probably a little different for you, but I crave emotional depth because I'm so lousy at producing it myself. The inside of my mind, while being a pretty rich, complex place, also feels rather cold and sterile to me, to the extent that I get tired of it. So I tend to be drawn to uninhibited, very expressive things (and people, for that matter) sometimes. I also find myself being suddenly and unexpectedly moved by some things, often for reasons I don't completely understand. Not quite to the point of crying, but moving in that direction.

For me, I'm sure this is all because I'm such an extreme T that I have a kind of void in that other part of my mind.

Yours sounds a little different than this, but the way you describe craving emotion, and the way certain things dramatically move you, actually suggests a T leaning, IMO.

 

[RDF]

A lot of your particular experience is tied up in the associations that the song has with everything from childhood experiences to present-day feelings about your mother.

Some people here have said that associations can be tied up with Si (in that sensory perceptions like a smell or a taste can bring up a childhood experience very vividly). But I tend to think that the basic process of associations exists aside or apart from MBTI or functional considerations. It's simply one of the ways we generate trains of thoughts quickly and efficiently--for example, by linking a stimulus or experience to an emotion for quick retrieval.

It's basically the way a dog "learns": they associate a stimulus with a positive or negative reaction. Pissing in the house = angry master. Certain smells signify friend and other smells signify enemy. Ringing food bell = salivate. As a result, an odor or a tone of voice can send them into transports of delight or despair.

I suppose some types might be more liable to using (and trusting) associative thought paths than others. But like I say, it's such a fundamental thought mechanism that I find it hard to link it solely to one function.

I love doing the associative thing myself. Music transports me back to specific times and experiences in my life. And reading the "Playdoh" thread instantly brought up old memories of the taste of Playdoh and playing with the stuff as a kid...

According to someone I live with who was once also frightened by crying women, you get used to it after you figure out it's not the end of the world.

I prefer not to stick around long enough to find out.

 

[heart]

A lot of your particular experience is tied up in the associations that the song has with everything from childhood experiences to present-day feelings about your mother.

Some people here have said that associations can be tied up with Si (in that sensory perceptions like a smell or a taste can bring up a childhood experience very vividly). But I tend to think that the basic process of associations exists aside or apart from MBTI or functional considerations. It's simply one of the ways we generate trains of thoughts quickly and efficiently--for example, by linking a stimulus or experience to an emotion for quick retrieval.

It's basically the way a dog "learns": they associate a stimulus with a positive or negative reaction. Pissing in the house = angry master. Certain smells signify friend and other smells signify enemy. Ringing food bell = salivate. As a result, an odor or a tone of voice can send them into transports of delight or despair.

I suppose some types might be more liable to using (and trusting) associative thought paths than others. But like I say, it's such a fundamental thought mechanism that I find it hard to link it solely to one function.

Isn't the cognitive function that this involves still Si, no matter who is using it or their type? Even though we all use it, it is still a product of a cognitive function, isn't it?

 

[RDF]

Isn't the cognitive function that this involves still Si, no matter who is using it or their type? Even though we all use it, it is still a product of a cognitive function, isn't it?

Put it this way: When it occurs unbidden, it's usually tied to a sensory experience (S). But there is usually also an emotional affect tied to it (F). In fact, it works best when tied to an emotion, because early in the evolutionary chain (and subsequently and more personally--in our own infantile stages of development) we made heavy use of emotion (fear, pleasure, anger) and sensory associations as our primary means of processing the world around us.

But it can also be stimulated intellectually (perhaps in the sense of N? T?): For example word associations, Freudian associations, puns/wordplay/jokes, Rorschach tests, etc. Thinkers even talk about getting thrills of delight from contemplating mathematical formulas.

Like I say, the associative mechanism is so basic and is used in so many forms that it's kind of hard to say it's related to one MBTI function alone. [Edit:] To me, that would be like saying that memory is related to one MBTI function alone. Use of sensory/emotional associations are our earliest and most infantile use of the associative mechanism; but that isn't our only use of that mechanism by any means.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Totenkindly]

Crying women scare me.

Seeing men cry might be even more freaky, you know.

I instinctively identified Ivy's experience as Si-related, although I'm not sure what it says about overall type -- you have emotions attached to past sensory impressions (as if they are happening in the current moment). Feelings attached directly to current sensory impressions (which are necessarily external) -- a raw data feed -- without any recall/memory involved is Se, and if the person is usually immersed in the feelings rather than in the cannibalization of those experiences for the accomplishing of some unrelated goal, it's like an SeFi combo. (just a guess)

Memories of sensory events take place inside and are related to Si ... SiFe is used to impact behavior focused more on regards to others (and emotions get wrapped up in it), SiTe either just experiences the emotions attached and doesn't know what to do with it, or else uses the recalled sensory impression in pursuit of some more impersonal goal.

 

[bluebell]

I dunno. That seemed like a very intuitive post. The organization of your posts always seems kinda T to me. Still, I can see the NF/SJ aspect here and there.

Glad to be of service.

^^^ what he said.


I dunno. What's the part of you that's as natural as breathing, and you wouldn't be you if you stopped doing it?

If I compare you to the ISFJ I know IRL (a good friend of mine - we hang out quite a bit), she's a lot more concrete and doesn't ever really read between the lines.

Her core self is practical caring for other people - she just can't switch it off. She never really thinks for fun, other than to plan dinner parties and fund raising events etc. She's a physicist by trade but she's not a science geek - or any type of geek, really. And she has a kickass evil sense of humour at times. I rarely (never?) see any raw emotion from her. She reacts emotionally to things, but it's very restrained and contained, and somewhat without passion, if that makes sense. She's also not at all introspective.

Any of that resonate at all?

/bluebell's clueless

 

[Totenkindly]

Her core self is practical caring for other people - she just can't switch it off. She never really thinks for fun, other than to plan dinner parties and fund raising events etc. She's a physicist by trade but she's not a science geek - or any type of geek, really. And she has a kickass evil sense of humour at times. I rarely (never?) see any raw emotion from her. She reacts emotionally to things, but it's very restrained and contained, and somewhat without passion, if that makes sense. She's also not at all introspective.

That's definitely one end of ISFJ. It rather depends on (1) the balance between the Si and Fe [which one dominates more] and (2) the tertiary development... although I think I see Ti developed more commonly in INFJ, not ISFJ.

With introverts, sometimes a person can have a primary that is less developed in some ways than the secondary, if they have been forced to become outward directed or have some need for external achievement.

I've actually seen a lot of emo from younger ISFJs. Usually they get a rein on their emotions as they get more relational experience in life and suffer emotional disappointments or get a sense of their obligations and become more duty-focused. The emotion usually comes out when they engage the raw Si without the Fe judgment thrown on top to stifle it (and the latter happens when they get older).

ISFJs can also get a nice Se streak going, if you can get them to turn off the the Fe control mechanism... and they can get openly enthusiastic and excitable. But they have to be in a safe environment or at least in a place where they do not feel the burden of duties.

 

[RDF]

Seeing men cry might be even more freaky, you know.

Definitely.

I instinctively identified Ivy's experience as Si-related, although I'm not sure what it says about overall type -- you have emotions attached to past sensory impressions (as if they are happening in the current moment). Feelings attached directly to current sensory impressions (which are necessarily external) -- a raw data feed -- without any recall/memory involved is Se, and if the person is usually immersed in the feelings rather than in the cannibalization of those experiences for the accomplishing of some unrelated goal, it's like an SeFi combo. (just a guess)

Memories of sensory events take place inside and are related to Si ... SiFe is used to impact behavior focused more on regards to others (and emotions get wrapped up in it), SiTe either just experiences the emotions attached and doesn't know what to do with it, or else uses the recalled sensory impression in pursuit of some more impersonal goal.

Meh. I always fight the designation of associative experiences as mere Si (or even SiFe). Si may trigger the experience, but there is so much more there than just that. Ivy describes a whole melange of experiences: weeping, association with a mother's lullaby, memories of her Quaker school and her pride at being treated like an adult there, song lyrics, the ideals that form her vision of life...

Trying to shoehorn all that into Si doesn't do it justice. I think it's more of a breakdown or bypassing of the normal thought processes (kind of like the parietal lobe experience I've talked about in other threads), and thus outside the realm of run-of-the-mill MBTI proper. An associative experience seems to run deeper and broader than the daily MBTI processes, and also seems more universal in form (everyone is probably going to experience pretty much the same thing no matter what their type preferences).

I play around with Si in the interest of developing it, and I've also played around with these associative moods. When they really get going, the associative moods are much bigger than mere data collection and comparison--more spacey, evocative, emotive, etc. I see them as more Freudian in nature than Jungian.

But that may just be me--maybe I'm being too much of a purist about what processes the separate MBTI functions should or shouldn't encompass. [shrugs shoulders]

 

[Mempy]

I think what Jennifer may be saying here is that the process of associating thoughts and feelings with stimuli, which is commonly called Si, is basically a process of recalling past data, which is memory, and memory is the building-block of knowledge. Without memory of experience, we're like goldfish, and goldfish have a memory of, what, three seconds?

Si is defined as the association of memories with emotions, but I think all emotions arise first through perceptions, or associations made with concrete stimuli.

Se: using one's five senses to take in sensory data. Si: memory retrieval of that sensory experience in the interest of applying it to current situations. But when that sensory data is stored, what process or function draws associations between them? Si is said to be the process of comparing past experiences with present ones; basically taking the data retreived from the world by Se and comparing it to a current situation. What do you call it when one is comparing and contrasting two past experiences with each other? Is it still Si? What about comparing two ideas? Ti?

"Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else. Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience. With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen."

Notice the bolded part in the definition of Si, which is all taken from cognitiveprocesses.com. Experience is the building block of knowledge. Imagine that you are given all the logical capabilities of Einstein himself, and yet you have no sight, smell, touch, hearing, or taste. Utter nothingness. What do you know? Nothing. What ideas do you have? I'm guessing none. If you don't have perceptions, how can you have emotions? If you are cut of from any and all data, what are you? Nothing. You can't react. You can't respond. You're not even alive, because living things respond to stimuli, and you perceive none.

Experience is the building block of knowledge. Se takes experiences in. Si recollects those experiences and applies them to current situations. A commonly cited definition of Se is acting in the moment, but how can you act in the moment if you do not recall past data? Good question. For example, a two-year-old is being barked at by a dog. She observes this with her sight and hearing; perhaps even her sense of touch, which feels the reverberations of the barking in the air. But how does she act if she doesn't know what barking means, and if she does not make associations in her brain between the barking and something else, for example danger and threat? This is where Si comes in, reminds her, "Hey, dear, dogs tend to bark when they're upset. It's often a warning before they bite. You may get hurt. Move away."

The "move away" part could be seen as acting in the moment, which, again, is commonly associated with Se, but how do you act in the moment if you don't recall past data, namely that dogs bark when they're upset and often barking is a precurser to biting? How do you apply that past data if you have not already formed ideas from it? Seeing the data itself is not enough to learn from it; you have to inference what the data means. Logic. What function is pure logic at work? Are any of them? I don't think any of the functions can be called logic itself, because more than one functions uses logical inference.

I'm hurting my brain now. Someone save me!

If anything, it's possible that all the functions are so intimately intertwined that it's impossible to separate them, and that all the functions are made up of smaller, more specific processes that many of them share in common.

Ivy, is this helping? I swear, it could be considered on-topic... couldn't it?

You know, I just went back and read this post and thought, "Ok..." "You're tired."

 

[rhinosaur]

Ivy, I've experienced the same sort of feelings as you did. I get them when I watch certain movies or listen to certain music. Often the experience moves me to tears. I don't know if this helps.

Ti Se Ni Fe

 

[Totenkindly]

I think what Jennifer may be saying here is that the process of associating thoughts and feelings with stimuli, which is commonly called Si, is basically a process of recalling past data, which is memory, and memory is the building-block of knowledge. Without memory of experience, we're like goldfish, and goldfish have a memory of, what, three seconds?

Si is defined as the association of memories with emotions, but I think all emotions arise first through perceptions, or associations made with concrete stimuli.

That's what I'm saying. Put another way, both Si and Se is the experiencing of real stimulation (not abstraction). Se is real-time, the stimulation is direct, and emotions raised come through body responses either inborn involuntary responses or behaviorally modified to respond instinctively a certain way -- but in any case the emotions are spawned right off the sense impression.

(Example: You get hit in the head by a baseball -> It hurts -> You cry or get angry or respond in some other way.)

Si is remembrance of PAST experience and stimulation. This can be just the data itself, as WELL as the person's response at THAT time to the data -- i.e., the emotional and response states also would get stored in the databanks and called up as part of the memory feed.

(Example: You hear the crack of a bat. You recall getting hit in the head with the ball before and reexperience the memory of that emotion... albeit a little "muted" because it's not direct. The current emotion: You become frightened/wary looking for the incoming ball, along with any residual emotion coming from the memory.)

So I don't really equate Se/Si with emotions per se, but they are closely tied because emotional states are perceived right alongside the data causing them.

 

[Ivy]

^^^ what he said.


I dunno. What's the part of you that's as natural as breathing, and you wouldn't be you if you stopped doing it?

If I compare you to the ISFJ I know IRL (a good friend of mine - we hang out quite a bit), she's a lot more concrete and doesn't ever really read between the lines.

Her core self is practical caring for other people - she just can't switch it off. She never really thinks for fun, other than to plan dinner parties and fund raising events etc. She's a physicist by trade but she's not a science geek - or any type of geek, really. And she has a kickass evil sense of humour at times. I rarely (never?) see any raw emotion from her. She reacts emotionally to things, but it's very restrained and contained, and somewhat without passion, if that makes sense. She's also not at all introspective.

Any of that resonate at all?

/bluebell's clueless

What's the opposite of resonate? Because I don't resonate with that much at all. I get anxious about planning events like the kids' birthday parties and I obsess over them, but not because I like doing that. And I wouldn't touch a fundraiser with a mile-long pole.

The one part that hits home is the "restrained and contained" part, which is what I am most of the time because I think emotions are private and I don't really wear them on my sleeve. But when I feel things privately and alone (or with my closest loved ones) it's passionate. At least it feels that way inside- it might not look that way from the outside.

I'm thinking about your first question up there.

(Also I made a new avatar in honor of the disclosures I've made in this thread.)

 

[Ivy]

Quite literally, you say? What shape are you, exactly? Some type of Quaker shape, I assume.

D'oh!

Okay, now that I'm done abusing you, an actual comment on your post.


To me, that craving deep emotion, and being hit with a melancholy rush from certain sensory experiences, strikes me as a T characteristic.

It's probably a little different for you, but I crave emotional depth because I'm so lousy at producing it myself. The inside of my mind, while being a pretty rich, complex place, also feels rather cold and sterile to me, to the extent that I get tired of it. So I tend to be drawn to uninhibited, very expressive things (and people, for that matter) sometimes. I also find myself being suddenly and unexpectedly moved by some things, often for reasons I don't completely understand. Not quite to the point of crying, but moving in that direction.

For me, I'm sure this is all because I'm such an extreme T that I have a kind of void in that other part of my mind.

Yours sounds a little different than this, but the way you describe craving emotion, and the way certain things dramatically move you, actually suggests a T leaning, IMO.

Actually- this is very interesting to me, because I sometimes feel like I'm "all or nothing" in this regard. I spend a lot of time in a pretty sterile state of mind, punctuated with these outpourings of emotion and sensation. When it happens sometimes my first thought is "thank God, I'm not dead inside after all" or something like that. Hmm.

 

[Rajah]

Oh, Ivy. You're an N, for crying out loud.

I have ya down as an INFX. You don't seem emo/self-involved enough to be INFP, so I'm going INFJ. However, in my estimation, all four functions are weak, which make you the balanced, awesome Ivy you are. Oddly, I think N is your strongest.

And I cry at music/movies, too. Like a little schoolgirl.

Glad to have been of service.