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[Mr Marnier]

Hello everyone,

Right then, I literally can't spend any more time trying to figure this out myself as it is becoming obsessive, but also I cannot let it go without coming to a satisfactory conclusion, so after EXTENSIVE personal research, I throw this out to you guys to see if some outside perspective can close this box for me!

Right so the first time I asked these type of questions to others, the response I got was INTJ or ENTJ, I related to some of both aspects of those profiles, but as I got deeper and did more tests, including cognitive functions tests and just cross referencing across several mbti tests (probably half the problem) the results go anywhere from INTJ / INTP / ENTJ / ISTJ, and that bothers me...If I have deemed something relevant i.e understanding my type, but as mentioned I am almost obsessive in pursuit of understanding and coming to a conclusion that I am confident with, first clue anyone...

The following are the traits / views I have that influence most of my life and thinking...

- Very serious 90% of the time, however moments of comical behaviour pop up now and then if I am not focused on a task / in the company of those I like.

- Known by some as a bit of a Jackyl and Hyde type person, this is because if i'm feeling good, or not particularly focused on a task I can be willing to have a chat / look upbeat, however if the same person asks me something whilst I am concentrating on something else I feel is important to me, I am very short / sometimes a little aggressive in my response as I hate breaking my concentration.

- Like to be known for being sensible / cool headed / reasonable, for example many people in my age range would enjoy going out, getting wasted and generally fooling around in public but although I enjoy going out I would never do this, me and the people I associate with are more interested in looking good and respectable when we are out and about.

- Find it VERY difficult to support things that I see no tangible benefit from, for example at work if someone comes up with a new way of doing something I will generally lean towards quickly dismissing it unless they can show me a direct application, and more importantly what are the benefits over the existing system.

- Like being involved in or thinking about things at a high level, I scan information rather than read all of it to get from it what I want, I would rather have a meeting at work about the long term strategy and goals but then delegate the actual day to day details of realising those goals to others, but keeping a watchful eye to make sure all is on course.

- Have no problem dedicated HOURS and hours to researching something of interest, but I can almost guarantee that whatever I am researching has some sort of goal in mind, I don't just learn about things for sake of learning, I will go and research this type theory for hours as I see it as a tool for using towards career goals, or someone says something I don't think sounds correct, i'll go and get the answer.

- Traditional views, I read websites like "The Art of Manliness" as I believe it is important for men to be men and women to be women, but also men to let women be women and vice versa, this doesn't mean I think all women should stay in the kitchen or anything but overall my views here are traditional.

- Believe very strongly in loyalty and honouring your word, if people tell me they will be somewhere and then cancel last minute it really pisses me off

- Find it very easy to memorise songs, sometimes a song in my head will keep playing after hearing it and it is very annoying!

- Not a great sense of direction in real life, however at work I use google maps to pinpoint job locations and I can build a pretty accurate "mental image" of where people are, travel times to each job based on previous experience and also find it easy to memorise which area codes relate to which areas etc, a knack for memorising facts I guess.

- Find it hard to focus on everyday details when something is on my mind, for example getting a satisfactory understanding of my type over rules checking my cars engine oil, however this is not a total situation, I would never miss paying a bill or something like that over this.

- Find it VERY hard to deal with small talk from those I do not like or respect, I find attempts to initiate this with me very annoying, my reasoning here is that i'm very straightforward with people as a rule, if I don't like someone I just won't engage them as I try to treat people as I want to be treated and that does not include being two faced, why would I ask someone I don't like about their weekend when I honestly do not care, the flip side is I am comfortable with small talk from trusted friends / partner.

- Like being a bit different but not in abstract ways, what do I mean? well for example I drive an American car, in the UK...I bought it because I like my car to stand out and for people to wonder what it is, I also like people associating me with that, however I have little to no patience for creative self expression like say, too many tattoos / punks / emos etc... while I would never abuse or persecute such people I feel that it is a error in judgement to go so far away from social norms, I think things like "how will you get a job or expect people to respect you looking like that?"

- I will not subscribe to social norms I deem unnecessary or have no real use, for example you won't catch me doing some "normal" things, like reading a tabloid, watching reality TV or endlessly updating my facebook, I find all of this a huge waste of time so won't do it.

- Have zero issues expressing affection towards my significant other and deem it necessary and enjoyable, however i am in control of my emotions and in the event of a breakup I have no issue moving on afterwards, regardless of the intensity of the feelings I had in the relationship, this comes down to me seeing it as illogical to break up with someone then chase them or moan about it, and also because I would find that behaviour a sign of weakness, and I do not like to look weak, physically or mentally.

- In discussions I find it difficult not to challenge people with wildly different views from mine, I like to put them to the test and am not comfortable just letting them keep their view, I do generally try and convince them to change to my point of view, until I realise this isn't going to happen, then I get bored and move on, but probably still unsatisfied that I haven't achieved that.

- I value justice / power and respect, my thoughts 90% of the time are on figuring myself out so I can apply myself in a career, to get more control over my life, I generally dislike working for anyone else as I don't like others being able to pull my strings, however I wouldn't have an issue working for someone if there was significant reward coming my way, and either authority or a clear path to authority / financial gain.

- Clear sense of right and wrong and a want for justice but my brand of justice, for example I would get pleasure from reading about a child molester being abused / killed in jail, and would be pretty disgusted reading about the same type of person getting off lightly, I feel a need to protect the innocent but not necessarily the weak, for example a colleague I feel is weak and generally doesn't help themselves could be getting bullied, I don't care so much, however if I saw a group of guys disrespecting a lone female, I would be inclined to smack them all upside the head.

- Generally will eat the same type of food / go to the same restaurants because I enjoy repeating the good sensations I get from going there / eating those foods, If I enjoy something I am VERY good at persuading people to try it and will explain it with great detail and enthusiasm, however if I went to a restaurant with my partner and she tried something new, I might decide to venture into the unknown also for sake of matching that behaviour.

- Hate being incompetent - I get annoyed at myself for not achieving at an above average standard, for example when I started my self defence class I wanted to be seen as one with "high potential" I like being able to demonstrate this and get frustrated when weak areas are observed, although this frustration is generally well contained within myself, this aspect of myself I believe is responsible for most under achievement in my life, not starting something for fear of incompetency so keep researching instead of DOING.

- Will not read fiction as I can't apply that knowledge anywhere and therefore see it as a waste of time, would much prefer to read an encyclopaedia or real life account of events.

- Love movies that are focused on war / politics / apocalyptic or thriller, I normally respect characters that display a high level of skill, like Jason Bourne or Mark Wahlberg in "Shooter" etc.... also they are normally realistic movies, intense sci fi, superhero type movies generally don't interest me.

Apologies for the long post, some of these things conflict I know hence why i'm here, for example I seem to use a lot of Si in terms of food / music / remembering facts and I test high to very high on cognitive function tests for Si, however I also dislike small details, am constantly think about the future (usually my own life like career etc...) and big picture which goes against some of the normal STJ profiles I read, this is where the confusion comes in.

Maybe i'm looking at this the wrong way, i'm thinking people with good knowledge of this might be able to ask me some questions I could answer that give my function preferences away, if so...feel free!

 

[Elfboy]

you sound like an ENTJ to me

 

[Nicodemus]

EXTJ. I hope you stay long enough to clash with DiscoBiscuit.

 

[Randomnity]

TJ, without question. Seems more STJ, and you sound more Te than Si, so ESTJ? ISTJ? I could also picture the other TJ types, though.

 

[Mr Marnier]

Ok I can relate more to ENTJ profiles than ESTJ so far but not ruling it out, most profiles on ESTJ seem to run a pretty common theme of "Sticking to the rules for rules sake", I just can't relate to that at all, I get thoroughly pissed off with people bossing me or anyone else around for the sake of it, however if I respect that person and believe they have integrity, I will get on board.

I read something earlier on entj vs estj personalities and someone gave a good comparable scenario, in a work situation when it comes to communicating a decision,

ENTJ - Here is the solution i have come up with, if any of you have a better idea then lets hear it, if not...get on with it.

ESTJ - Who is in charge, me or you? right then, get on with it.

In that scenario i'm 100% with the ENTJ, I would want to slap someone who came from the ESTJ style above, however i realise this is again a subjective behaviour scenario.

Can anyone think of a couple of questions to ask me that might show a preference to either ENTJ or ESTJ?

 

[Randomnity]

I think there actually aren't any (active posters) here right now are a couple ESTJs hanging around here. The SJ descriptions online have been pretty universally derided as negative stereotypes by the other SJ types here, so I wouldn't take them too seriously.

maybe some of the ENxJ vs ESxJ threads here would be useful. Or talk to the entjs here, there are a couple although I think one of the males is a mistyped ESTJ.

You could try reading up on Ni and see if it sounds right to you. You definitely seem like you identify strongly with Si though, which would be fairly unusual for an ENTJ.

 

[Such Irony]

xSTJ

 

[Antimony]

xSTJ. I am inclined to go with ESTJ. You seem very clear cut, and sure. Absolutely TJ. Probably ExTJ.

Highly, highly traditional views though, and completely unlike any intuitive I have ever seen. Well, maybe not completely, but it is quite different.

 

[EJCC]

I read something earlier on entj vs estj personalities and someone gave a good comparable scenario, in a work situation when it comes to communicating a decision,

ENTJ - Here is the solution i have come up with, if any of you have a better idea then lets hear it, if not...get on with it.

ESTJ - Who is in charge, me or you? right then, get on with it.

In that scenario i'm 100% with the ENTJ, I would want to slap someone who came from the ESTJ style above, however i realise this is again a subjective behaviour scenario.

Yeah, that example is beyond terrible. SO much anti-ESTJ bias on the Internet. I was just trying to find a good ESTJ vs. ENTJ example online, and every one I found was along the lines of "ESTJs are slaves in the corporate machine, and they are emotional and irrational and overly focused on rules and they resent everyone" blah blah blah. Not objective at ALL.

Can anyone think of a couple of questions to ask me that might show a preference to either ENTJ or ESTJ?

Not sure... Any question I could think of would be related to big-picture Ni things vs. smaller-scale within-the-system Si things.
For example:
- If you see something wrong in the way an organization is run, are you more likely to say "That person is inept and should be fired", or "The system is flawed and needs to be changed"?
- If you want to do charitable work, would you prefer to start your own group or work your way to the top in a pre-established group?

And on another note:
- Do you relate to descriptions of NTs more? Or SJs?

Keep in mind as you try and decide between the two: It's not that ESTJs stick with "the rules for the rules' sake", as you said. It's that ESTJs stick with what's familiar. It's the Si. They base a lot of what they say and think off of their Si's database of what is typical, or not.

For example, if an ESTJ saw a movie and hated it, and you asked them why, their answer can almost always be rephrased as "The movie didn't meet my pre-established qualifications for a good movie." For example: "Good movies have good acting, and the acting was terrible in this movie, and therefore the movie was not good." As opposed to an ENTJ, whose Ni may lead them to a different style of critique - and qualifications that are perhaps harder to articulate.
^ ENTJs, feel free to call BS on this. I'm not 100% sure about it. I know that INTJs can be like that though.

 

[Mr Marnier]

Yeah, that example is beyond terrible. SO much anti-ESTJ bias on the Internet. I was just trying to find a good ESTJ vs. ENTJ example online, and every one I found was along the lines of "ESTJs are slaves in the corporate machine, and they are emotional and irrational and overly focused on rules and they resent everyone" blah blah blah. Not objective at ALL.


Not sure... Any question I could think of would be related to big-picture Ni things vs. smaller-scale within-the-system Si things.
For example:
- If you see something wrong in the way an organization is run, are you more likely to say "That person is inept and should be fired", or "The system is flawed and needs to be changed"? I find this hard to answer because it is subjective, for example I come across many issues in my job at the moment, if I feel there is a specific person responsible for the failings, and they have been given an adequate chance of changing their conduct, yet haven't or are just incompetent then yes, fire the hell out of them, however If I feel the failing is more to do with an ineffective system I would look to rectify that first, I have defended many peoples jobs in the past as I felt they haven't been given the correct guidance / training or systems, however I have no problem cutting dead weight if those conditions have been met.
- If you want to do charitable work, would you prefer to start your own group or work your way to the top in a pre-established group?
I would prefer to start my own organisation, that way I could ensure my values are driving the organisation and that I could influence the selection of others involved in the project

And on another note:
- Do you relate to descriptions of NTs more? Or SJs?
Hard to say, I seem to find that when reviewing raw descriptions of cognitive functions, I relate much more to Si than Ni, for example Ni appears too individualistic for me, they like to figure things out themselves and do things their own way, behind the scenes, that isn't me, If I come up with an innovative idea or achieve something, I like it to be well known and receive recognition for it, also I could imagine those with very individual styles of fashion for example would be heavy Ni users, "I like it and that is all that matters" type thinking, again...not me, I like to have my own flavour but I like to fit in to the environment at hand.

However when it comes down to reading descriptions of NT vs SJ types, and also reading responses from those types on forums I identify more with the NT, but I am wondering now if this is because of the inaccuracy of the descriptions of types online, plus people jumping on their respective bandwagons i.e "Yes all ESTJ people make lists and follow all the rules because the internet told me they do, if you don't you are not ESTJ!"

Keep in mind as you try and decide between the two: It's not that ESTJs stick with "the rules for the rules' sake", as you said. It's that ESTJs stick with what's familiar. It's the Si. They base a lot of what they say and think off of their Si's database of what is typical, or not.

For example, if an ESTJ saw a movie and hated it, and you asked them why, their answer can almost always be rephrased as "The movie didn't meet my pre-established qualifications for a good movie." For example: "Good movies have good acting, and the acting was terrible in this movie, and therefore the movie was not good." As opposed to an ENTJ, whose Ni may lead them to a different style of critique - and qualifications that are perhaps harder to articulate.
^ ENTJs, feel free to call BS on this. I'm not 100% sure about it. I know that INTJs can be like that though.

To add to this, other results for me...

Ennaegram Type - Stong 3, followed by 8w9, this is a consistent result across a number of tests.

Big 5 type: SCOEN, usually but this does vary, I can identify with I would say 90% of the description.

According to research, My ennaegram type would be more ENTJ, but my big 5 would be ESTJ, no help there then!

Over several tests I show a left brain dominance, usually in the range of 55/45 towards left so fairly balanced.

I prefer topics on military / business / cars etc... I would aspire to positions such as CEO, Secretary of Defence, Director of an Intelligence agency, High end banking etc, Legal partner... why? I guess I have a heavy bias towards power / respect / control and material gain, see this is what moved me away from INTJ, I could never be comfortable as a scientist or programmer, it is too behind the scenes and routine for me.

Also, with regards to E or I, I can definitely act like an I, but it depends, for example if I am working in a small team of people with those I do not respect or have anything in common with I will switch off to them, I am more than happy to share an office with them and mind my own business in silence...all day.

Isn't E or I all about how you direct your functions and thoughts more than your behaviour? No I won't run my mouth in a loud fashion all the time and get off on rocking into a nightclub in a silly hat, however I do follow social norms of groups I respect, I love to debate with others, express my views...IF I think those people are capable of giving that back, I am interested in my image / success etc.. and think it matters etc... but then I don't chit chat with strangers, make endless small talk or try to maintain some massive network of friends, I like the idea of knowing many people for reasons of getting more opportunity, but I do value deep and authentic relationships with people rather than smiling at everyone in a superficial way, I either like someone or I don't!

Looks like this may not be an easy task....!

 

[Mr Marnier]

Throwing this into the mix, I stumbled across http://www.neoxenos.org/temperaments/temperament_test.htm, I actually found these 4 temperments to be very telling and easy to relate to, my results were:

Sanguine: 3

Choleric: 15

Melancholy: 15

Phlegmatic: 7

Made sense to me, I identified equally with Choleric and Melancholy, the description of those two combined summed me up nicely as well:

"Strategist Pattern

Choleric-Melancholy
"D-C"
The Strategist is more detail oriented than the other Cholerics. They initiate change. They usually operate from a well-thought through plan. They have creative ideas. They will often use very direct, forceful and persistent methods to get results or promote their ideas. They want to be in charge because of confidence in their ability to make things happen the "right" way. They like to solve problems and make decisions¾and are actually quite able to do so. They usually have well thought-out goals and are very independent in an attempt to carry them out. They need to know exactly what is expected before they can function efficiently. They can be very forceful and very sensitive. They speak with authority and are usually very productive. When working on a project they exhibit sensitivity and strategy that reveals penetrating insight. To be highly motivated they need freedom, the opportunity for advancement, information that will help them get results and the chance to make something better. They dislike weakness."

Doesn't seem to be a definitive correlation to this and MBTI, if anyone has looked into that on a deeper level, feel free to chime in.

 

[Eric B]

The correlation with the temperaments would be:

Action and leadership
SJ Melancholic
SP Sanguine
NT Choleric
NF Phlegmatic

Social skills
IST/INJ Melancholic
EST/ENJ Choleric
ISF/INP Phlegmatic
ESF/ENP Sanguine

So that each type is a blend between two temperaments (and for four types, it's actually a blend between the same type). On the other thread about this, the results are not perfect, but a lot of people do get the two corresponding temperaments as the strongest. Like INFJ's are Melancholy Phlegmatics (INJ+NF)

Choleric Melancholy is ESTJ (EST+SJ) and Melancholy Choleric is INTJ (INJ+NT; another common match with these tests).

I see ESTJ being mentioned a lot in this thread, so that would look like it from the temperaments (have to read your OP again). Either way, you would be an extraverted Thinker. So what we're looking at is if it is Si or Ni you prefer along with it, and if you're an extravert (Te is dominant).