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What type does this sound like? (very annoying person)

alicia91

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Nov 20, 2007
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Of course there are annoying people of all types but there is one person in my life that annoys the crap out of me. Subs thread about his sister got me thinking about her and today I had an incident that I'm still thinking about.

*she's the assistant pastor/youth pastor at my church
*seems concrete and not nearly as philosophical as most pastors
*can't tell if she's E or I, but I suspect I
*GREAT public speaker (her best trait)
*very personally conservative, makes the kids address her in a much more formal way than any other pastor or staff at church
*MICROMANAGES everyone, and everything
*is organizing a trip for the youth next month where they can't bring anything for the 3 hour car drive because she has divided them into 'special' groups and they are going to play TWO 'getting-to-know-you' games on the way. No cards, no ipods, no books - these kids already know each other and will think this is lame. The kids are 12-14.
*my teens dislike her because she tells them what to do, treats them like babies and insists they come to youth group even in a snow storm becuase she's keeping attendance.
*even though my church is fairly liberal she gave a kid "Hell Points" (exactly what that is I don't know) because one of them said "oh my G_d" in response to something.
*I served on a committee with her recently where we had to figure out a way to spend a grant that the church had been given over the next 5 years in terms of Christian Education. She actually wanted us to plan out Year 1 we spend it on ...., Year 2 we spend it on ....I thought she was nuts and so did most other people. I suggested that the plans for CE be reviewed each year and plans be made year to year. Everyone else agreed so I got my way!She was very disturbed by this and said something like 'how can we trust whoever is going to be making decisions 3 years from now.'
*isn't overly warm, but strangly enough describes herself as cute and perky.
* in some ways organized, but drops the ball sometimes when she's "too busy"
* selfish - started a meeting today 15 minutes early because most people were already there and the weather was getting bad. Then didn't have time to stay later and explain to me, what I had missed when I came on time.
* is only 24 and it trying WAY too hard to act mature and demand respect

Is this a strong J that is bothering me? How do I know if it's T or F. I tried looking at types to see who'se the worst for micromanaging but didn't find anything. ISFJ? ISTJ?

One big reason that I'm curious about her is that I get really worked up about another person JUST LIKE HER (my son's music teacher) and can barely deal with her either (my son is in an advanced music program so I have a lot of dealings with her). So between the two of them - I think it would help me to learn how to work with them rather than just sit around feeling annoyed after my dealings with them.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
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Sep 7, 2007
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3,553
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ENTJ
Wow. Thanks for colorful description! I do enjoy typing, too :)

I'd guess ESTJ. My idea of strong Te is a kind of "physical computation", or "thinking by doing".

A strong Ti considers (in their head) what would happen under different conditions and interpretations.

Te throws their half-finished ideas in the world and see how it works out. They know that being strong enough others will be forced to adapt to them and there will be some sort of a result.

I'm seeing her do the latter in an immature way.

She's also more obviously strong Si than Ni.

Micromanaging and being a skilled orator strongly suggest E, when put together.

So, ESTJ.
 

JustDave

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ESFJ

IMO, Here's why:

*even though my church is fairly liberal she gave a kid "Hell Points" (exactly what that is I don't know) because one of them said "oh my G_d" in response to something. - Very illogical actions as most children (age Dependant) often do not understand the significance of certain statements.

*my teens dislike her because she tells them what to do, treats them like babies and insists they come to youth group even in a snow storm because she's keeping attendance. - Since apparently she is so personally vested in this institution any affront to it is an affront to her. Edit: Feelers tend to take things personally.

*isn't overly warm, but strangely enough describes herself as cute and perky. - Generally Extroverts are far more concerned w/ external image than introverts.

* is only 24 and it trying WAY too hard to act mature and demand respect - Good one, to me this cements the fact that she is a guardian as Rationals generally don't care about arbitrary authority, artisans are the type to "live and let live" and finally idealists would never force obedience as they are inclined to respect others as individuals.
 
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sassafrassquatch

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church_lady.jpg


Is that her?
 

MerkW

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Do you have any anecdotes related to this persons introversion/extroversion and her thinking/feeling? Obviously a clear example of xSxJ, yet the rest is not entirely clear. Do you have any potentially useful information in regards to this? My guess so far is ESTJ, though.
 

alicia91

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Thanks everyone. I'm getting better at this since I thought SJ myself!

Do you have any anecdotes related to this persons introversion/extroversion and her thinking/feeling?

The E verus I - I can't think of any examples, I'm still not sure of this myself. I will say that she appears very middle-of-road or slightly more I. The reason for this is that she's got this 'quiet leader' style when she deals with people. In front of crowd she's a great public speaker but with people she seems more shy or reserved. She's also not particularly chatty in a small-talk kind of way. But let's say she knows that you are going through a tough time she has this annoying way of asking "how are you doing?" She will stare at you intently and kind of scrunch up her face while asking "how.......ARE....you...doing (eyes squinting, face turned to the side)? Seems really fake if you ask me. But I guess I only know her through the church and not in her private life so perhaps I'm only seeing her in this role?

T versus F. Hmm..What is the Church Lady whose pic Sassafrass posted? She's just like her minus 30 years. :yes: A lot of the things I can think of that seem T-like are actually J characteristics and we've already established that. Could any of you give me an example 'what would she do if..?' sort of thing?

Knowing that she's SJ migh be enough however. Don't get me wrong everyone - I have several good friends who are SJs who are great.

Edit - I will add one more thing. Happened yesterday. The Christian Education director was on vacation and the Sunday School classes were supposed to start a new teaching curriculumn. There had been some kind of issue with this curriculmn arriving late and the CE director emailed the first weeks lessons to the associate pastor on friday afternoon and asked her to print it off and give to the teachers on Sunday. So twice a month I help out as the CE Assistant and yesterday we had no curriculumn because the pastor didn't print it off because she was 'visiting friends out of town.' She could have forwarded it to me and I could have printed it out or she could have asked the CE director on the phone to email it to me or any number of other people. But NO. Once again she's really rigid with HER own things but refuses to step out of the normal operating procedure and bend to anyone else. This is really the bottom line of my annoyance with her and my son's music teacher - rigid with how they deal with others, but won't bend an inch to help the overall situation. Both are notorious for changing things at the last minute and when it doesn't work for others, then they give you the guilt-trip/rigidity response. "well, the music class had to be rescheduled from today to tomorrw, and I KNOW you said you had a major family event tomorrow, but it really is mandatory that your son attend. You see we have a famous singer coming in tomorrow to teach the kids a new song, and if your son is not there then he won't know it as well as the others for next week's performance. And because your son is such a strong LEADER in this group - we can't have him lagging behind the others. I know that being in the very advanced program is difficult for families and making it a priority can be a huge SACRIFICE." You could just subsitute my pastor - she's exactly the same.
 

JustDave

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Thanks everyone. I'm getting better at this since I thought SJ myself!



The E verus I - I can't think of any examples, I'm still not sure of this myself. I will say that she appears very middle-of-road or slightly more I. The reason for this is that she's got this 'quiet leader' style when she deals with people. In front of crowd she's a great public speaker but with people she seems more shy or reserved. She's also not particularly chatty in a small-talk kind of way. But let's say she knows that you are going through a tough time she has this annoying way of asking "how are you doing?" She will stare at you intently and kind of scrunch up her face while asking "how.......ARE....you...doing (eyes squinting, face turned to the side)? Seems really fake if you ask me. But I guess I only know her through the church and not in her private life so perhaps I'm only seeing her in this role?

T versus F. Hmm..What is the Church Lady whose pic Sassafrass posted? She's just like her minus 30 years. :yes: A lot of the things I can think of that seem T-like are actually J characteristics and we've already established that. Could any of you give me an example 'what would she do if..?' sort of thing?

Knowing that she's SJ migh be enough however. Don't get me wrong everyone - I have several good friends who are SJs who are great.

A quiet person is not necessarily an introvert as a preference for introversion or extroversion indicates where one gets his or her energy from.

IMO, she is definitely an ESxJ and if you think she has a preference for thinking then she is probably an ESTJ. Overall she seems too domineering to be an ISxJ. My hunch is ISxJs would not desire visible positions of power. Although I am stereotyping, if she were the treasurer, an accountant, etc. then you could argue that she was an ISxJ.
 

JustDave

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Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, is there any chance she could be a power hungry ENFJ? The reason I am speculating is (I think) statistically speaking ENFJs are drawn to positions in religious organizations at a higher frequency than other types.
 

alcea rosea

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Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, is there any chance she could be a power hungry ENFJ? The reason I am speculating is (I think) statistically speaking ENFJs are drawn to positions in religious organizations at a higher frequency than other types.

I think she could be about any J type there is. She seems a bit controlfreak.
 

alicia91

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A quiet person is not necessarily an introvert as a preference for introversion or extroversion indicates where one gets his or her energy from.

True, but then how could we determine someone's E versus I without knowing them really well or just asking them?

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, is there any chance she could be a power hungry ENFJ?

Hadn't thought of that. I'll go read a bit about that type. It's certainly not obvious to me that she had much N (I'd say MY own N is much stronger at least on the surface).

I know I've started to talk about two different people here, but they could be twins so whatever one is the other is surely the same. One more clue - they are both really bad at handling anything out of the ordinary like a setback or problem - but I guess that's a J-thing? One quick example, the school had a holiday musical at a rented hall. I arrived a couple of hours before the event along with the teacher to help set up. We were supposed to supply the centerpieces and we were short two. The teacher was flippping out. I calmly started taking some of the hall's own decorations off the walls and quickly whipped up two great looking centerpieces. The teacher was initially appalled that I would nab things off the walls and she said "I didn't see you doing that" I said "we are RENTING this space, that included everything inside it" (see how good at rationalizing I am?). Problem solved, I put everything back at the end of the night. Not a big deal if you ask me - but to her it was HUGE. The next day she thanked me for my quick thinking.
 

JustDave

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I think she could be about any J type there is. She seems a bit controlfreak.

Succumbing to analysis paralysis, too many options, too many tangents!!! Just kidding :D

I agree, she is definitely a J type but probably not an ENTJ or INTJ. Perhaps ESTJ is the best fit for her.
 

JustDave

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I calmly started taking some of the hall's own decorations off the walls and quickly whipped up two great looking centerpieces. The teacher was initially appalled that I would nab things off the walls and she said "I didn't see you doing that" I said "we are RENTING this space, that included everything inside it" (see how good at rationalizing I am?). Problem solved, I put everything back at the end of the night. Not a big deal if you ask me - but to her it was HUGE. The next day she thanked me for my quick thinking.

Disregard my point about her possibly being an ENFJ, now I am certain she is an ESTJ as most intuitives would have applauded your quick creative solution.
 

Totenkindly

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sx/sp
After reading the OP, my guess was ESTJ.

Then I read all the other entries and saw everyone else said the same thing. (woo hoo!)

I think an ESFJ would actually have been a little more flexible and warm in her dealings. This woman is impersonal, not personal, and doesn't seem to accommodate the actual personal needs of others; she sticks to established protocol.

(ESTJs tend to have a "Yeah, so what?" attitude if you drag someone's feelings into the situation as a valid reason to consider changing course; they sort of insinuate people are being weak for adjusting for such things.)

As far as dealing with ESTJs: Well, the quickest way to deal with her is to fire her. (I'm only half-kidding.) Honestly, she sounds like Youth Pastoring is *not* up her alley. She should be working to develop and manage operating procedure, away from any place where she needs to nurture people... because she's not mature enough or practiced enough yet to do it. I guarantee your youth program will not grow, and the only participants will be the kids who have no other choice but to come.

[Hell Points? HELL POINTS?? She's lost them. they already see her as a joke.]

(The church I attended has an ESFP youth pastor, she's great for the teens. And EN's usually do very well too. my INFP friend helps out with the kids and mentors them. All of these people are well-suited temperament-wise to flex with the kids. Your ESTJ friend will break them.)

If you have to deal with her, don't bother with a feeling's approach -- or at least only include it in passing, as information that might stick in her head for later. You should worry about explaining things in terms of practical logic.

Also, I advise taking a strong approach with her when you approach her with a "practical logic" argument. Yes, you will butt heads. But if you don't, she'll see you as weak and unsure and thus your viewpoint must be weak too. Her natural instinct is to attack and push people around, you can't afford to take it personally. Take her challenge as impersonal ones, regardless as to how you're feeling about them, and address the issues practically. She will be more apt to back-pedal if you hit her hard and impassively. (But I know this takes energy/emotional investment and can be hard sometimes to commit to.)

Don't be afraid to assert boundaries either. She'll want things clearly defined, fuzziness again is another sign of weakness to her.
 

alicia91

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As far as dealing with ESTJs: Well, the quickest way to deal with her is to fire her. (I'm only half-kidding.) Honestly, she sounds like Youth Pastoring is *not* up her alley. She should be working to develop and manage operating procedure, away from any place where she needs to nurture people... because she's not mature enough or practiced enough yet to do it. I guarantee your youth program will not grow, and the only participants will be the kids who have no other choice but to come.

She already lost lots of the High-School age youth - I'd say half of them don't come to Youth Group because of her. The Middle-school group is still fairly large but most of the parents make the kids go at that age. I've tried discretely talking to a few other trusted parents about it but many of them have the attitude that it's good for the kids to have to deal with different personalities etc. or they say 'give her time,she's new OR they are SJs themselves and like her strict, prim and proper style. I don't want to push it since I don't want to be known as someone who is plotting behind her back. My teens are ENFP and ISXP so they don't work well with her at all. Actually I don't think any of the teens really like her. That's sad.

Problem is she's replacing our VERY popular former associate/youth pastor and she's got big shoes to fill from the kids point of view. The former was about 30, was very relaxed, go-with-the flow, theologically liberal (wanted to but the rainbow(gay and lesbians welcome) sign on the church, let the kids have a lot of input, went to concerts, had a MySpace where he talked to the kids, and yet I trusted him to know EXACTLY what was going on, but other parents thought he was too easy-going. So I believe the church purposely hired someone more strict.

Thanks for the advice about dealing with her Jennifer. I'm taking notes!
 

Lateralus

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I agree with most everyone else here. I'm thinking ESTJ. What you describe reminds me of my ESTJ father, very much.

In my experience, ESTJs don't think their arguments out very well. And when they're defeated, logically, they always fall back on the 'rules'.
 

Jae Rae

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I'm a little confused about one thing - if she's an ESTJ her lead function is Thinking, but there's some question about her being an F. So is it possible she's an ISTJ (lead function Sensing; Thinking in the secondary position, Feeling in tertiary) who's not comfortable in her leadership position, hence she's acting more stringently/stridently? As JustDave said, her real talent as an ISTJ would be in a less leadership-oriented role. Designing curriculum rather than implementing it would be more her strength, although she sounds pretty unsuited to dealing with teens at all.

Jae Rae
 

JustDave

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I'm a little confused about one thing - if she's an ESTJ her lead function is Thinking, but there's some question about her being an F. So is it possible she's an ISTJ (lead function Sensing; Thinking in the secondary position, Feeling in tertiary) who's not comfortable in her leadership position, hence she's acting more stringently/stridently? As JustDave said, her real talent as an ISTJ would be in a less leadership-oriented role. Designing curriculum rather than implementing it would be more her strength, although she sounds pretty unsuited to dealing with teens at all.

Jae Rae

Besides some of her actions (which I am too lazy to type again) the reason I think she has a feeling preference is becuase I tend to associate religious administration with feelers.

Most people would agree that ESTJs are second only to ENTJs in corporate career potential and for this seemingly well motivated and assertive person to (given the average lower salaries) work for a not for profit seems illogical.
 

INTJMom

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I had an ESTJ female Christian boss once.
She had to micromanage everything.
I think they need to be in charge of a lot of people.
If they don't have enough people to be in charge of,
they spend too much time with their nose in everyone's life.
Also, my boss would make sweeping general statements about people that insinuated bad things about them.
She always believed the worst of people, never the best.
She spent every waking moment inventing new hoops for us to jump through.
I started to feel like I needed to ask permission to go to the bathroom.
 
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Lateralus

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Besides some of her actions (which I am too lazy to type again) the reason I think she has a feeling preference is becuase I tend to associate religious administration with feelers.
Wrong. I don't even want to bother explaining why.

Most people would agree that ESTJs are second only to ENTJs in corporate career potential and for this seemingly well motivated and assertive person to (given the average lower salaries) work for a not for profit seems illogical.
Wrong again. It appears that you're operating under the assumption that material wealth is most important to ESTJs.
 
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