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Zarathustra's Enneagram Type

What enneagram type am I? (please only vote if you've read the whole thread... thx:))

  • 1w2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2w1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2w3

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3w2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3w4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4w3

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4w5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 6w7

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 7w6

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 7w8

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 8w9

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 9w8

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    18

Mia.

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
821
Also you seem to willing to go on a "crusade" in a descusion/debate defending your values. While I often ask myself "Do I even have values concerning this topic ?".
You seem to have a interesting and fluid life (from what I have seen) , maybe it is just a cultural thing for you but somehow I doubt this is the case.

***

Often you are directly rude and underestimating.

***

You seem to have too much energy , charisma , values ...... etc to pass as a type 5. (even with w6). Maybe you are surrounded all your life with more open and happy people then yourself so you dont see the full spectrum and you dont realize that there is still fair amount of spectrum between you and real detachment.
.

I think what you’re seeing here might well be the influence of his sx/so stacking, though…

sx/so
This is the type that exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy. They may identify so strongly with whatever they're involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it's purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They enjoy pushing other's buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression. It's not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they're able to support with heartfelt conviction. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it. While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability. Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this subvariant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.
Motivation: to impact others, question assumptions, challenge convention.
Familiar roles: provocateur, activist, exhibitionish
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
I think what you’re seeing here might well be the influence of his sx/so stacking, though…


I know, but I am here just to offer a perspective. There is a reason why I said that I dont know the guy that well.


Plus there is one more problem/factor - the odds that you are a Sx/So and a 5 are pretty low. (but it is possible)
 

Nicodemus

New member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
9,756
I would say 6w5 although my initial, less informed impression was 8. Do you need a protracted explanation?
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
This thread has one of the oddest posting histories I've seen...

My 2 cents.

Thanks for the input.

Honestly, I thought to myself a month or two ago, "I haven't seen Antisocial one post in forever. I wonder if he still comes by..."

I think you bring up a lot of worthwhile points, but I think mia_infp's observation kinda negates most of it.

I think what you’re seeing here might well be the influence of his sx/so stacking, though…

See, when I read this, it just feels exactly like me:

sx/so
This is the type that exudes the most raw charisma and sexual energy. They may identify so strongly with whatever they're involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it's purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They enjoy pushing other's buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression. It's not uncommon for them to have a pet social, political or spiritual cause which they're able to support with heartfelt conviction. May exploit and seek to redefine sexuality to reflect their own colorful and uncertain understanding of it. While prone to exhibitionism, they are strongly attracted to grounding influences which can anchor them and provide stability. Failure to satisfy an especially intense desire for connection may cause this subvariant to spite others at the risk of jeopardizing the need for an equal, stabilizing force. Can feel pulled between wanting a life of maximum intensity and reassuring episodes of peaceful convention.
Motivation: to impact others, question assumptions, challenge convention.
Familiar roles: provocateur, activist, exhibitionish

I feel so obviously sx/so (and I did thoroughly go over sx/sp as well, just to make sure) that there's pretty much no point questioning it.

So, if that's the case, how do you combine the above with the typical withdrawnness of a 5 that you were pointing to?

I mean, if we just look at the image for my instinctual variant result from my first post:

sxsosp.gif


Sx = assertive
So = compliant
Sp = withdrawn

Everything you were pointing to seems to speak to the fact that you are withdrawn and I am not.

And, well, we know that I am sp last, and, well, my impression of you has always been that you are sp first.

So... pointing to my lack of withdrawnness, as mia pointed out, wouldn't necessarily seem to get us the answer.

I appreciate your input, though, and I think it's still valuable to factor into the mix.

One further 5w6 vs 6w5 issue we can see from your post is that to be an sx/so 5 would seem to be somewhat contradictory.

5s are supposed to be withdrawn, while sx/so's, with assertiveness first, and withdrawnness last, would seem to fly in the face of that.

To further compound the confusion, 6s are supposed to be full of contradictions, which, based on my reading recent 6 profiles, is what fits me more than just about anything else about a 6 (having an underlying anxiety/jitteryness does too, but, once again, I would be expected to have that as a 5w6 anyway, so, once again, that doesn't offer up anything conclusive).

may be an odd thing to ask but cc was supposedly a 4w5...how well did you relate to her 5ness? i thought i was a 7w8 until i dated an 8w7....if that makes sense...

Umm...

Well, she's so obviously a 4 -- like, there's no questioning whether she's a 4w5 or a 5w4 -- that I don't think her 5ness is that good of a guide, if you get what I mean. Like, if I'm a 5, then my 5ness is stronger than hers, and, if I'm a 6, I'd still say my 5 wing is stronger (I think I'm able to objectively separate my emotions from a situation to objectively analyze it better than she can [which makes sense either way -- 5w6 or 6w5 -- as both are head/thinking types]).

$10, 25 minutes.

Do this one: http://www.enneagram.net/tests/index.html#fullenneacards

Post back what your tritype is.

I might just do this.

Although, tbh, considering the confusion that already exists, I don't know if I really want to bring tritype into the mix.

I was planning on taking the $10 RHETI test at the Enneagram Institute website tonight.

Plus there is one more problem/factor - the odds that you are a Sx/So and a 5 are pretty low. (but it is possible)

So doesn't this just make it a more intriguing question?

Perhaps you just don't think I'm a 5 because 5w6 sx/so's aren't common, and look different than the more common sp 5s.

I would say 6w5 although my initial, less informed impression was 8. Do you need a protracted explanation?

No, but your input would be welcome.

You know I respect your opinion more than most, and I'd be interested to hear what made you switch.

Was it increased knowledge of 8s vs 6w5s, increased knowledge about me, or both (and, if both, what degree to each)?

I'd also be interested on your thoughts between 5w6 and 6w5, cuz that's been the real question for a much longer time.

I thought 8w9 when I knew next to nothing about the enneagram, but haven't really thought that for a while now.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
I might just do this.

Although, tbh, considering the confusion that already exists, I don't know if I really want to bring tritype into the mix.

I was planning on taking the $10 RHETI test at the Enneagram Institute website tonight..

Do the tritype link I sent you first if you do both. It might answer more of your questions, and has the virtue of differing from the other tests. Post your tritype and I will type in the info I have about it.
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
most INTJs strike me as 5w6 with sp/sx when younger, but slowly developing into an 8w9 as they grow older then take a shallow exploration into type 2w3.

Howevers, INTJs like Z and my beloved father figure INTJ feel like they made the journey towards 8w9 faster than other intjs or started there in the first place just being much more 8like or Te like. My little 4 yo INTJ also feels very much like a baby Z and his whole attitude and communication is much more forceful, even dominating than other INTJs, to the point he can almost seem ENTJ at times. Even wehn he says nothing, he is still Te-ish around the eyes.

However as [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] points out, I tend to find much more value as of late in the tritype as it does capture a much clearer snapshot than trying to muddle through and pick one enneatype. Perhaps your tritype is 8-5-2? dominating-analytical-caring. (I'd say ummy is 9-5-2 or 9-5-3).

Just my thoughts though :)
.
 

UniqueMixture

New member
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
3,004
MBTI Type
estj
Enneagram
378
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Based on the conversation in vent about what to do if solar flares destroyed technology I'd say a type 1.
 

Mia.

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
821
However as [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] points out, I tend to find much more value as of late in the tritype as it does capture a much clearer snapshot than trying to muddle through and pick one enneatype.
.

Absolutely. I know I'm a 9, but the descriptions for 9w1 and 9w8 are disappointing, even though if I had to pick I'd probably say 9w1. The tritype is where it's at. Reading the description of one's tritype is infinitely more precise, holistic, and accurate. 954 is me in a way that 9w1 will never be. (And the instinctual stacking revolutionized my understanding.)

You might really benefit from taking the tritype test and having that piece of information in the mix.
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
My tritype according to a test in a book I took called "discovering your personality type" is 5w4, 3w4, and 7w8, definitely combining to create someone extremely crazy abd random!
For the Oldham test I guess that would correlate with Idiosyncratic, Solitary (it's 5w6, very close to 5w4), Inventive, and Adventurous.
Potential Personality Disorder - Schizotypal
 

BlackCat

Shaman
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
7,038
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
My tritype according to a test in a book I took called "discovering your personality type" is 5w4, 3w4, and 7w8

Sounds like an awful test, since you have no instinctive type in that tritype, so it's incomplete. X_x
 

Rasofy

royal member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,881
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I think [MENTION=4347]Antisocial one[/MENTION] made some very good points.

Imo, you ''engage'' too much to be a 5. There are scenarios on which 5s would basically either:

1)
a-Post a well thought out advice .
b-Sit back and expect for the best. :shrug:

2)
a- Leave a smartass remark.
b- Let the chaos reign. :burns:


But you seem to be the kind of person that engage much more than this. When you see a dumb person, your goal seems to be making sure he knows he is being dumb. When you have an opinion that could grant you an infraction, you don't really care and just say it. I think a 5s are much more deliberate in this aspect. We tend to be more aware of some lines that aren't meant to be crossed, whereas you just don't see any line.:alttongue:
On a side note, 6s seem to make the best temp ban candidates. Specially when drunk.:violin:
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I think Antisocial one made some very good points.

Imo, you ''engage'' too much to be a 5.

Once again, tho, how is this not potentially negated by my being sx/so?

But you seem to be the kind of person that engage much more than this. When you see a dumb person, your goal seems to be making sure he knows he is being dumb. When you have an opinion that could grant you an infraction, you don't really care and just say it. I think a 5s are much more deliberate in this aspect. We tend to be more aware of some lines that aren't meant to be crossed, whereas you just don't see any line. :alttongue:

See, I just don't see how this necessarily points to 6w5 over 5w6.

Does it actually deal with the ramifications of me being sx/so? I don't think so.

Wouldn't you kind of expect a 5w6 sx/so to want to make sure someone knows he's dumb?

As for not seeing lines that shouldn't be crossed and saying infractable things, it might surprise you to hear that, up until a month or two ago, I hadn't received an infraction in almost 18 months. The truth is, I've got a pretty good sense of just how to ride the line. It's my way of communicating my love for the mods. :heart: :D
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I think Antisocial one made some very good points.

Imo, you ''engage'' too much to be a 5.

Once again, tho, how is this not potentially negated by my being sx/so?

But you seem to be the kind of person that engage much more than this. When you see a dumb person, your goal seems to be making sure he knows he is being dumb. When you have an opinion that could grant you an infraction, you don't really care and just say it. I think a 5s are much more deliberate in this aspect. We tend to be more aware of some lines that aren't meant to be crossed, whereas you just don't see any line. :alttongue:

See, I just don't see how this necessarily points to 6w5 over 5w6.

Does it actually deal with the ramifications of me being sx/so? I don't think so.

Wouldn't you kind of expect a 5w6 sx/so to want to make sure someone knows he's dumb?

As for not seeing lines that shouldn't be crossed and saying infractable things, it might surprise you to hear that, up until a month or two ago, I hadn't received an infraction in almost 18 months. The truth is, I've got a pretty good sense of just how to ride the line. It's my way of communicating my love for the mods. :heart: :D
 

Rasofy

royal member
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,881
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Does it actually deal with the ramifications of me being sx/so? I don't think so.
Perhaps sx/so aren't supposed to be 5s?
I think sometimes we can come up with pretty twisted results if we insert too many variables. 5s for example, are supposed to integrate to 8, deteriorate to 7, and be influenced by the wings 4 and 6. I mean, that's 5 out of 9 enneagrams to deal with. And people say Tri Types are complicated. :dry:
Imo, the solution is making it simple. Either the Enneagram alone fits or it doesn't. No need to add more variables to a system that is supposed to make sense on its own.
As for not seeing lines that shouldn't be crossed and saying infractable things, it might surprise you to hear that, up until a month or two ago, I hadn't received an infraction in almost 18 months. The truth is, I've got a pretty good sense of just how to ride the line. It's my way of communicating my love for the mods. :heart: :D
Aww, how lovely is that. I have a hunch that it's mutual. ;)


p.s. If an INTP ever tells you ''no need to add more variables'', you should probably listen. :sartre:
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
Thanks for the input.

Honestly, I thought to myself a month or two ago, "I haven't seen Antisocial one post in forever. I wonder if he still comes by..."

I think you bring up a lot of worthwhile points, but I think mia_infp's observation kinda negates most of it.



See, when I read this, it just feels exactly like me:



I feel so obviously sx/so (and I did thoroughly go over sx/sp as well, just to make sure) that there's pretty much no point questioning it.

So, if that's the case, how do you combine the above with the typical withdrawnness of a 5 that you were pointing to?

I mean, if we just look at the image for my instinctual variant result from my first post:

sxsosp.gif


Sx = assertive
So = compliant
Sp = withdrawn

Everything you were pointing to seems to speak to the fact that you are withdrawn and I am not.

And, well, we know that I am sp last, and, well, my impression of you has always been that you are sp first.

So... pointing to my lack of withdrawnness, as mia pointed out, wouldn't necessarily seem to get us the answer.

I appreciate your input, though, and I think it's still valuable to factor into the mix.

One further 5w6 vs 6w5 issue we can see from your post is that to be an sx/so 5 would seem to be somewhat contradictory.

5s are supposed to be withdrawn, while sx/so's, with assertiveness first, and withdrawnness last, would seem to fly in the face of that.

To further compound the confusion, 6s are supposed to be full of contradictions, which, based on my reading recent 6 profiles, is what fits me more than just about anything else about a 6 (having an underlying anxiety/jitteryness does too, but, once again, I would be expected to have that as a 5w6 anyway, so, once again, that doesn't offer up anything conclusive).



Well there is a reason why I am pretty confidant in my vision.


Others say that you may be 5w6. However I am 5w6 and I claim/see that you are not that much like me. So I give myself the advantage since I am more aware of how it is to be 5w6. Plus I had alot of 6s around while I was growong up. (that is probably how I got my w6 actually)



Everything you were pointing to seems to speak to the fact that you are withdrawn and I am not.

True, but that is not insignificant thing if we are arguing if you are naturally detached to not. That is all that matters .... how much coffee you drink , what cars do you like .... etc are not that much important things if the question is how detached you are. If we are talking about how detached you are ... you and your detachment level must be in the center of conversation. (and that is why I am bringging this up)




The problems with Mia's comment is that it actually has almost nothing to do with "the problem". (in my opinion)


She managed to prove that you are a Sx/So. (what you already know) but she didn't make any real argument for you being 5w6. Lets forget that 5w6 and Sx/So dont get along that well for a sec.



So when you sum it up the claims are

1. You are not 5 because ..........


2. You are Sx/So therefore you do this and this .


Which one of these claims says more about you not being or being a 5 ? (what is the real/original question)






The only line that is here under fire is that you are a 5 and that is what I am targeting. Since you dont show plenty of type 5 traits.


While one the other hand we have a claim that you variant is atypical for 5w6 and a thesis that this is somehow increasing the chances that you are 5w6. Since everything is possible in theory and a choice should be done with a heart. Even if categorization of traits exists and it is fairly clear.





I am dont want to be rude, it is just that you simply dont give a type 5 vibe to me.

(you asked for the opinion and simply gave mine)
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
There are some good points but I think the degree to which one resonates with someone isn't always the best barometer to determine someone else's type. Is it that the instincts really explain the disparity or are they used more as a tool to explain away the 6w5? After reading the whole thread, I have no opinion on the matter... it's a toss up for me. I am just curious.

EDIT: I identify mostly with 5w6 Sp/So for myself.
 

Mia.

New member
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
821
Perhaps sx/so aren't supposed to be 5s?

1. I may be wrong, but from what I’ve read of the literature, any enneagram can have any stacking, although some combinations might be more rare, and might experience more dissonance and potential for inner and behavioral conflict. Some combinations are even defined by confliction, such as sx/sp. The same could be possible between the enneagram type and instinctual stacking.
2. I know a (very definite) INTJ who I know in fact to be sx/so. I just spoke with him last night actually, and had him take three enneagram tests and he came out 5w6 on all of them. And the similarities between he and Z are striking, although I suppose this could still be the case with the reverse order of 6w5 as well. And perhaps the tests were wrong and he is actually 6w5. Those tests tend to suck after all. He is very definitely INTJ with sx/so stacking, though.

I’m not making a case for either 5 or 6. I’m trying to keep people from ruling out 5 because of a mental block about its coexistence with being sx/so. If I had to pick one, though, based on what I’ve read, and what I’ve seen, I’d guess 6w5.
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I think [MENTION=4347]Antisocial one[/MENTION] made some very good points.

Imo, you ''engage'' too much to be a 5. There are scenarios on which 5s would basically either:

1)
a-Post a well thought out advice .
b-Sit back and expect for the best. :shrug:

2)
a- Leave a smartass remark.
b- Let the chaos reign. :burns:


But you seem to be the kind of person that engage much more than this. When you see a dumb person, your goal seems to be making sure he knows he is being dumb. When you have an opinion that could grant you an infraction, you don't really care and just say it. I think a 5s are much more deliberate in this aspect. We tend to be more aware of some lines that aren't meant to be crossed, whereas you just don't see any line.:alttongue:
On a side note, 6s seem to make the best temp ban candidates. Specially when drunk.:violin:

[MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION], could you describe the differences for me and I suppose also for Zarathustra between 5w6 and 5w4, because I remember saying I thought I was 5w6 but like two days ago I tested 5w4, however 5w6 was very close. I can't say for sure which one is right. Thanks!
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
Perhaps sx/so aren't supposed to be 5s?

I wouldn't go that far.

That would seem more a convenient attempt to write something off than anything else.

Are you sure you're an INTP?

:alttongue:

Imo, the solution is making it simple. Either the Enneagram alone fits or it doesn't. No need to add more variables to a system that is supposed to make sense on its own.

I take the opposite view.

I think what makes the enneagram interesting is the ability to make all those subtle distinctions.

And the instinctual variant stuff speaks to me so strongly, I would never want to throw it out.

Something interesting worth reading:

5w4 so/sx Consultant courtesy of jase
Take the supreme intellectual arrogance of the social Five and give it a personalized, one to one touch, and you get your very own personal expert wannabe.

5w4 sx/so "Revolution" contributed by jase
The most creatively energized and outspoken of Fives, they conceive of outlandish and idealistic alternatives to a reality they find deeply unfulfilling for the most part, and like to exhibit these radical visions, possibly through an art form if not through direct advocacy. Many sx/soc 5w4's are responsible for revolutionizing their creative fields, for better or worse. They aren't always comfortable in the visionary roles they might find themselves in, and may escape to extended periods of withdrawal to regain a sense of independence and security. This kind of retreat can surprise those who have mistaken them for a more conventionally driven, extroverted personality.

5w4 sx/sp "In their Own World" contributed by jase There's something oddly captivating about this Five, apt to wander through various conceptual worlds, as conceived in the minds of others, or of their own creation. They can appear perpetually sullen and immersed in emotional thought, giving the impression there's much more going on beneath the surface. This type of Five can easily be mistaken for a Four, though their range of expression is constricted. Curious about others though usually from afar, it's as if they're reserving themselves for the one element or person that would truly understand them. Despite intensity of desire, the sx instinct has difficulty asserting against the fearful inhibitions of the Five, along with the restrictive self pres close to the surface. They usually wait to be approached, but others should find them intriguing enough to initiate contact.

5w6 sp/sx contributed by jase
is the most private of Fives, not as emotionally detached but more socially oblivious. They would likely find their niche within a stable, low maintenance relationship, in a safe environment where they're insulated from the demands of others. They have an endearing quality uncommon to other Fives, so I see this type as more heavily Six winged.

5w6 sp/so "The Engineer". contributed by jase
Probably the furthest removed of all types from their own emotional life. The most practical minded and hardest working of Fives, prefer to work with complex physical systems over mere theory. In some ways this might be the purest version of Five.

5w6 so/sp "The Scientist" contributed by jase
the most hyper intellectual of all types, they value pure rational thought above all else. The most theoretical of Fives, not as hands-on experimental as the tinkering sp/soc 5w6, they seek to advance theory over technology. This may be the most recognized "face" associated with type Five, as seen in movies such as "A Beautiful Mind."

5w6 so/sx "The Goofball" contributed by jase
think of the main characters from "Revenge of the Nerds", a bunch of highly social, highly sexualized, irresponsible self pres lasters goofing off, at least that's how I remember it. This is probably the most Sevenish and outwardly humorous kind of Five, they value being smart but also want to be cool. I imagine several classic comedic performers were soc/sx 5w6.

5w6 sx/soc - "The Mad Theorist." The most mentally intense of all types, a speculative imagination teams up with a visionary intellect to produce an eccentric style that cannot stop theorizing on the frontiers of science, envisioning alternate realities, or predicting the future. Fascinated by the paranormal, the unexplained, the six wing adds a sense of conspiratorial intrigue. They possess abundant nervous energy and are anxious to discharge their thoughts onto others, though the forcefulness of their ideas and sometimes frenzied delivery may overwhem their audience.

5w6 sx/sp - "From Another Planet." Less attracted to mundane science, more likely to be captivated by the unusual and complex universes that populate cutting edge sci-fi. Slow to trust but driven to engage with others, may offer hints about their secret interests to test a person's receptiveness. They share their private ideas and knowledge as a way to get closer. This tactic may unintentionally win them many friends, but leave them just as removed from any romantic prospects. Not as nerdish though a bit on the odd side, others may find them strangely appealing. Overall, the most atypical 5w6, can be mistaken for 5w4.

...

Aww, how lovely is that. I have a hunch that it's mutual. ;)

:laugh:

Totally.

They even gave me my own channel in vent.

:hug:

p.s. If an INTP ever tells you ''no need to add more variables'', you should probably listen. :sartre:

:laugh:

Yes, but as you may suspect, my thinking goes in the exact opposite direction.

Well there is a reason why I am pretty confidant in my vision.

Ok, that's all well-and-good, but your reasoning still needs to back it up.

Unfortunately, it doesn't.

Others say that you may be 5w6. However I am 5w6 and I claim/see that you are not that much like me. So I give myself the advantage since I am more aware of how it is to be 5w6. Plus I had alot of 6s around while I was growong up. (that is probably how I got my w6 actually)

Ok. the problem with this is that you seem to have completely missed the point of what mia said, as demonstrated by what you later write.

Everything you were pointing to seems to speak to the fact that you are withdrawn and I am not.
True, but that is not insignificant thing if we are arguing if you are naturally detached to not.

Actually, yeah, it is.

And this shows why you missed the point.

Someone who is detached but assertive is going to look completely different than someone who is detached by withdrawn.

You're pointing to my assertiveness and saying, "He's not detached", and what we're saying is, "You're just pointing to my assertiveness".

If the way I worked is that I was incapable of detaching whatever it is that is detached -- my emotions, presumably? -- from my analysis of an object, then I think you might have a point, but I don't think that I am, nor do I think that point to my assertiveness if a very convincing argument that I am not. That just shows that, after I analyze the object in an objective manner, I am assertive about it.

That is all that matters .... how much coffee you drink , what cars do you like .... etc are not that much important things if the question is how detached you are. If we are talking about how detached you are ... you and your detachment level must be in the center of conversation. (and that is why I am bringging this up)

Ok, but bringing up how much coffee I drink (although, this could have to do with it slightly, as coffee might make you wired, more assertive, and/or less detached, as it's a stimulant and affects your behavior -- a 5 on ten cups of coffee might well seem less detached than a 5 on no cups of coffee) and what cars I like are irrelevant examples compared to my instinctual variant being sx/so. My being sx/so will have a direct effect on how detached you think I am. In fact, you have to really dig down deep and define what exactly it means to be detached, in light of the different instinctual variant possibilities, if detachedness is what you consider the hallmark characteristic of a 5, because a detached-but-assertive person (i.e, an sx 5) is likely gunna appear highly different than a detach-but-withdrawn person (i.e., an sp 5).

The problems with Mia's comment is that it actually has almost nothing to do with "the problem". (in my opinion)

I think the problem is that you didn't get her point.

She managed to prove that you are a Sx/So.

No, she didn't prove that I am sx/so, and your thinking that's what she did/attempted to do is why I don't think you understood her point.

but she didn't make any real argument for you being 5w6.

Actually, she did, and, once again, the fact that you don't seem to understand how she did is why I think you didn't understand her point.

She was simply saying, as I recapitulated, that everything you brought up could be explained away by the difference of you being an sp and me being sx/so. As such, your arguments against 5w6 were bunk. That is an argument for 5w6 (if only be negation of your arguments against 5w6).

Lets forget that 5w6 and Sx/So dont get along that well for a sec.

I don't see how this is going to be helpful, as this is the entire point.

We know that I'm sx/so.

Therefore that fact must be dealt with.

So when you sum it up the claims are

1. You are not 5 because ..........


2. You are Sx/So therefore you do this and this .


Which one of these claims says more about you not being or being a 5 ? (what is the real/original question)

As I figured, this would not be a valuable line of reasoning.

Nothing you have argued necessarily shows that I actually lack detachedness.

Everything you have argued could simply be your showing that I lack withdrawnness and possess assertiveness.

The only line that is here under fire is that you are a 5 and that is what I am targeting. Since you dont show plenty of type 5 traits.

I think I show plenty of detachedness.

In fact, if you want to know what's going on in my mind while I've been writing this it's a feeling of detachedness combined with a feeling of assertiveness. I don't feel anxiety, at least not much. There's sort of a very light background feeling of anxiety, but it's very small, almost non-existent really, and has more to do with just scanning the environment and making sure I'm not missing anything/getting all the correct points. It's really in service of detachedness (i.e., being objective). In fact, writing this post is swaying me more towards 5w6 (whereas before I was leaning 6w5), as detachedness and assertiveness are what are really going on in my mind, while nervousness/anxiety are largely non-existent.

While one the other hand we have a claim that you variant is atypical for 5w6 and a thesis that this is somehow increasing the chances that you are 5w6. Since everything is possible in theory and a choice should be done with a heart. Even if categorization of traits exists and it is fairly clear.

I dunno.

I read this and think that you clearly just don't get it.

It's not that it increases the possibility (why should it ever have been decreased to begin with?), it's that the possibility remains open.

And the categorization of traits you mention is once again missing the point, as the whole idea is that you are mistaking 5 traits for sp traits, and conflating sx/so traits with not-5 traits.

I am dont want to be rude, it is just that you simply dont give a type 5 vibe to me.

It's no problem.

It's just, I don't think you're being objective.

You don't seem to understand how a 5 sx/so would look very different from a 5 sp.

The fact that you don't think I give a 5 vibe can be explained away by the fact that, in your mind, a 5 wouldn't have the traits of an sx/so.

What you'd effectively need to show is how I am not detached, in spite of my assertiveness.

That, underlying my assertiveness, there is not a detachment.

And that's assuming that this is the valuable distinction to make between 5s and 6s.

Are 5s really perfectly detached? And 6s not? I dunno...

(you asked for the opinion and simply gave mine)

No, your opinion is appreciated, as it helps sharpen the distinctions needed to be made.

I hope you do see now, though, based on the above, why your line of reasoning is flawed.

That's not to say that you're wrong -- I could be a 6w5 (check my profile) -- it's just that your reasoning doesn't prove anything, nor does it really come close to disproving the opposing thesis (that I'm a 5w6 sx/so).

There are some good points but I think not being able to resonate with someone isn't always the best barometer to determine someone's type.

Especially when it's clear and obvious that one is an sp and the other is sx/so.

Those are two very different stackings, with two very different vibes.

Is it that the instincts really explain the disparity or are they used more as a tool to explain away the 6w5?

I think it's that the instincts present a question that must be dealt with in trying to find the true answer.

Then there's the even further-back question of whether the enneagram is legit in the first place...

But, for the moment, I'm willing to put the latter aside, and just try to figure out the former.

After reading the whole thread, I have no opinion on the matter... it's a toss up for me. I am just curious.

Per [MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION]'s recommendation, I'm gunna check out the Naranjo book 'Character and Neurosis', which, from what I've been able to tell, is supposed to be the best book there is on the enneagram. I'm also gunna take the test [MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION] recommended.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I’m not making a case for either 5 or 6. I’m trying to keep people from ruling out 5 because of a mental block about its coexistence with being sx/so. If I had to pick one, though, based on what I’ve read, and what I’ve seen, I’d guess 6w5.

This is pretty much exactly my position.

There are some other nuances I consider as well.

Like, I wonder whether my 6 wing comes across more as I haven't resolved/learned to deal with it as healthily as my 5ness.

The 6 wing is already supposed to come off more strongly from 5w6 sx/so's, so one would expect that those two facts added together would combine to make me seem even more 6w5ish, even if I'm actually 5w6.

[MENTION=13260]Rasofy[/MENTION], could you describe the differences for me and I suppose also for Zarathustra between 5w6 and 5w4, because I remember saying I thought I was 5w6 but like two days ago I tested 5w4, however 5w6 was very close. I can't say for sure which one is right. Thanks!

Get your own thread, kid.
 
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