Zarathustra's Enneagram Type

[RaptorWizard]

I voted 5w4.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

What's his usual instinctual variant? So/Sx?



Well, when it comes down to degree, this becomes difficult.

To some degree, I am all those things that you say a 6w5 is; I would suppose, though, so are many 5w6s.

I've actually looked at some of those interviews (Ken Shamrock and Brian Eno), and Eno is a lot like how I think I probably come across -- Shamrock: not at all. Of course, Shamrock is an idiot and Eno is intelligent, so that might explain a good deal of that. I think Eno has certain mannerisms that are like mine, though. A certain "looking inward", trying to get just the right word, very thoughtful. And I can see why he's a 5w6 instead of 6w5.

I'll check a few more of those out...

I think that if you feel similar with the 5w6 examples despite they are not INTJs, that means that it's probably your type. Same for 6w5s.

My 2 c.

 

[Glycerine]

Of course in the most scientific way possible, I always grouped you and InvisibleJim vibewise. So I went with 5w6. haha

 

[Rasofy]

Of course in the most scientific way possible, I always grouped you and InvisibleJim vibewise. So I went with 5w6. haha

I like your reasoning, but couldn't IJ be a 6w5?

 

[entropie]

Judging from how intensely you are living in your own world, 6 is a good fit.

 

[Glycerine]

I like your reasoning, but couldn't IJ be a 6w5?

I was actually going to add "or 6w5" lol. IJ could possibly be 6w5 but I have hardly ever had a conversation with him. I just always saw Z as having a similar vibe to him but friendlier and less reactive.

 

[skylights]

i'm not reading this whole thread right now so i'll vote in-post, 6w5 sx for you z

 

[Zarathustra]

i'm not reading this whole thread right now so i'll vote in-post, 6w5 sx for you z

Interesting...

IIRC, some time back you posted on my wall that you thought I was 5w6...

Mind my asking what caused the change in mind?

ETA:

Also, if there's one post in this thread people should read, I think it's this one:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36458&p=1431066&viewfull=1#post1431066

That's not to say I necessarily believe I'm a 5w6 over 6w5 (the truth is, whenever I study up on it, I conclude that I'm 5w6, but then, as time goes along, when I look at it, I get a nagging feeling that I may be a 6w5), but I went back through the health levels for both 5s and 6s, and the 5 health levels still speak to me (significantly) more. And this is despite the fact that I'm seriously considering 6w5.

One possibility is that I've dealt with most of the issues of being a 5 and am well-integrated into being an 8, and, at the same time, I haven't dealt with the issues of being a 6-wing all that well, and so the "negative" behaviors of a 6 might be more apparent in my behavior. As of now, I'm between this interpretation and thinking that I'm just a counterphobic 6w5 sx/so.

Two more considerations to keep in mind:

• My father is an ISTJ, and probably a 6w5. As such, his 6ness might have rubbed off on me and made it more prevalent in myself, whether I'm a 5 or a 6.
• I am pretty much absolutely certain that I'm an sx/so, and, as some people who are rather strong in the enneagram have noted ([MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION] and various websites), and as I figured myself, this can make a 5w6 look more like a 6.

I decided recently that it's time to read some enneagram books.

 

[skylights]

oh damn, i did, fuuuuck

ahah that's what i get for off-the-cuff responses when i've only had a couple hours of sleep

i read your post. if you're 5 you integrate to 8. makes sense

you do seem pretty involved for a 5 though. which definitely would lean you w6 over w4

 

[BlackCat]

I think you're a 6w5. You don't seem detached from the world enough to be a 5, period. My first impression of you was a bit of a stretch, you are an obvious sx/so yet you aren't really an extroverted or aggressive type so it threw me off; and 5 seemed to somewhat fit my first impression. But upon seeing you interact more and getting to know you a bit better you for sure come off as a 6w5. You are WAY too people focused to be a 5 IMO.

EDIT: On another thought, maybe you should read Naranjo's work and see whether you relate to 5 or 6 more? Or read any real enneagram sources and differentiate between their coping mechanisms and defense mechanisms etc; they are pretty different. The way you are online seems a bit... subdued and private. Like you have a certain part of yourself that you project online versus how you really are like.

Also being integrated to 8 IS an interesting thought, however constant integration is impractical at best. Integration and disintegration tend to happen in spurts; it would have to be some very specific situations if someone were CONSTANTLY integrated or CONSTANTLY disintegrated. It's along the lines of say, for example, how you feel around your friends versus how you feel alone. They are two different feelings inspired by different things going on. Integration/Disintegration is inspired by things going on in one's life, while the enneatype is a constant within you. Like, "when I do this, I feel this way, making me more confident in myself and comfortable and letting me relax" (example for a situation where you could integrate). Or the opposite- "when I do this or this happens to me, I feel this way, making me more stressed out and confused" for disintegration.

Things DO stay with you when you integrate, it does become apart of you, but it becomes part of how your base type affects you versus just becoming that other type.

If you relate to 8 so much I've thought that you could be a CP 6w5, who are a bit more subdued but still are intellectually aggressive and not as openly aggressive as 6w7s (marm is an example of that). Sx/so would also complement this typing for you. Counterphobic 6w5s seem pretty uncommon in general, and sx/so just makes that even more peculiar and uncommon IMO.

 

[Zarathustra]

you do seem pretty involved for a 5 though.

Interesting point...

I think [MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION] makes just about the same observation...

Wouldn't one expect an sx/so to be more involved, though?

This is the description of 5w6 sx/so that made me go "bingo!"

5w6 sx/so - "The Mad Theorist." The most mentally intense of all types, a speculative imagination teams up with a visionary intellect to produce an eccentric style that cannot stop theorizing on the frontiers of science, envisioning alternate realities, or predicting the future. Fascinated by the paranormal, the unexplained, the six wing adds a sense of conspiratorial intrigue. They possess abundant nervous energy and are anxious to discharge their thoughts onto others, though the forcefulness of their ideas and sometimes frenzied delivery may overwhem their audience.

Unfortunately, there wasn't one for 6w5 specifically, and the general one for 6 sx/so was short and relatively useless.

6 sx/so contributed by jase
The sx/so Six channels the sx energy outward against their fears in all directions, but they are less aware of their inner anxiety, displaying a truer counterphobic style, and often resemble Eight. Mike Tyson is a sx/so Six, I would say.

...

which definitely would lean you w6 over w4

Yeah, I don't really have any doubts about the wing anymore.

It's just between 5w6 and 6w5.

My first impression of you was a bit of a stretch...

I thought your first impression was that I was a counterphobic 6w5...?

But upon seeing you interact more and getting to know you a bit better you for sure come off as a 6w5. You are WAY too people focused to be a 5 IMO.

Noted.

Same question as for skylights, tho: wouldn't sx/so be more people-focused?

EDIT: On another thought, maybe you should read Naranjo's work and see whether you relate to 5 or 6 more? Or read any real enneagram sources and differentiate between their coping mechanisms and defense mechanisms etc; they are pretty different.

Yeah, I think this is the necessary next step.

What would be your top three recommendations?

The way you are online seems a bit... subdued and private. Like you have a certain part of yourself that you project online versus how you really are like.

Would that strike you as more of a 5 or a 6 thing to do?

Also, the way I look at it is like this: this medium allows a certain kind of interaction that I enjoy, that I don't get to do in the same way irl, so, while on here, I take advantage of it and use it in a way that, if somehow this kind of interaction could take place (more) in real life, I would most certainly want it to. I think this medium just allows for real conversation. I mentioned it once in this post: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33710&p=1434264&viewfull=1#post1434264

Also being integrated to 8 IS an interesting thought, however constant integration is impractical at best. Integration and disintegration tend to happen in spurts; it would have to be some very specific situations if someone were CONSTANTLY integrated or CONSTANTLY disintegrated. It's along the lines of say, for example, how you feel around your friends versus how you feel alone. They are two different feelings inspired by different things going on. Integration/Disintegration is inspired by things going on in one's life, while the enneatype is a constant within you.

Interesting...

Will have to think about this...

 

[Zarathustra]

Ok, this is important... [MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION]

I finally registered for the Enneagram Institute's website.

They have a pretty decent section on misidentifying enneatypes.

Misidentifying Fives and Sixes

Fives and Sixes are both Thinking types and, when educated, can both be quite intellectual. It is far more common for Sixes to mistype as Fives, but for some easily understood reasons. Of the two types, Sixes tend to be more linear and analytical in their thinking because they are interested in troubleshooting, in prediction, and in establishing methods that can be repeated. Thus, contrary to popular belief, the world of academia and higher education is more the realm of Sixes than of Fives. Academia teaches students to work with advisors and mentors, to cite sources and back up arguments with quotes from authorities, to follow proper procedures in papers and theses, and so forth–all type Six values.

Fives are much more non-linear in their thinking. They are interested in finding out where established theories break down and in developing iconoclastic ideas that shake up structures and established methods. Fives are, generally speaking, bolder than Sixes in their positions and creativity, but also far less practical. Fives feel that they can only trust their own minds to come to conclusions–they believe that everyone else is likely to be less well-informed. Sixes get frantic trying to find something to trust precisely because they do not trust their own minds to come to meaningful conclusions. The difference between them can be seen in the difference between Umberto Eco ( a Five) and Tom Clancy (a Six), or Peter Gabriel (a Five) and Bruce Springsteen (a Six).

I sound far more like a 5 based on the above.

At the bolded parts especially, I sound more like the 5.

At the underlined parts, the one thing I will say that does not fit me about the 5 is that I don't always think I'm better-informed.

I think when it comes to certain topics, there are definitely people who are more informed than I am.

On the whole, though, I do feel there are very few people more informed than me.

And I simply do not identify with the "not trusting your own mind" stuff of 6s.

Do I doubt things? Yes. Almost intentionally. I was trained to do so.

But am I incapable of trusting my own mind? No. Not at all.

In fact, I find my own mind pretty fucking fantastic.

ETA: And yes, I understand the considerable irony of this post.

 

[skylights]

I think when it comes to certain topics, there are definitely people who are more informed than I am.

On the whole, though, I do feel there are very few people more informed than me.

actually i think that's quite a 5 thing to say. the way the misidentification is worded is odd; i've always gotten the impression that 5 is very much about observing and learning from other sources. and a 5 would trust their own mind over the minds of others (but recognize that others might have more information) - whereas a 6 like me would be more likely to suspect that others don't have as much information but even so worry that others might have better conclusions. but you don't seem concerned about your ability to come to correct conclusions. if i understand 5 vs 6 correctly, 5 is confident in securing knowledge, but have a hard time just trusting that they can simply act without information and it be okay. whereas 6s have less trouble just acting on the fly - as thinking types too it's pretty unappealing but it's not the end of the world - but coming to our own solid mental conclusions is really difficult. (you'll notice i could make a great argument for you being either a 5 or a 6 but could fairly easily be swayed either way!)

plus 5, 3, and 8 are all competency types, so they share similarities of needing to feel "powerful" in certain realms... so that could be a facet of associating with 8... also i feel like NTJ is inherently sort of 8ish. just like ENFP is inherently sort of 4ish, even though many of us have no connection to 4.

Wouldn't one expect an sx/so to be more involved, though?

yeah, especially over the internet.

 

[Starry]

Okay...I don't know what happened (saw your rep Z). I was posting and was kicked-off the site...
but it had looked like what I wrote had been posted correctly...but then not??? Let me see if I can recreate what I wrote...

And I simply do not identify with the "not trusting your own mind" stuff of 6s.

Basically what I was saying is that e6 is kinda confusing because you are dealing primarily with phobic descriptions online. Like that bit you underlined from above...that is a phobic trait. Counterphobia is a whole different ball-game.

In the end I don't really know what you are...but I voted 6w5 as that would be my best guess. What may seem like 'e8 intergration' (to you and others?)...looks like e6 counterphobia to me.

 

[BlackCat]

Wouldn't one expect an sx/so to be more involved, though?

This is the description of 5w6 sx/so that made me go "bingo!"



Unfortunately, there wasn't one for 6w5 specifically, and the general one for 6 sx/so was short and relatively useless.

What is the source on these? I've never seen these. The source that I typically use for the stackings is this site- http://ocean-moonshine.net/e1428573...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=42&MMN_position=80:80 However, I do it more as a confirmation AFTER you've found your base type versus a way of finding your base. I think that it would be natural to relate to sx/so 5 and 6 to some degree because they are enneagram neighbors, both in the thinking triad, and 6w5s can definitely be pretty withdrawn like a 5 could.

Going about identifying type through integration/disintegration patterns is kind of a wild goose chase IMO. I think that if you jade yourself enough to look at things in a certain way, that you can relate to any general description because a lot of it boils down to "I get stressed or depressed in this way" and "I grow in this way". It's the same as the instincts, it's best to find your base type and then build onto that and add the depth.

I think that a lot of instinctual stuff is VERY hard to pick up on because a lot of it is very unconscious. What you read will probably only be like 25% of how it actually affects you. They run very deep, and I think a lot of people can get confused in this way.

I think also that the type depends on how involved you are. A lot of 6s in general really enjoy being involved with SOMETHING outside of themselves, but for reasons other than that of the soc instinct. This is because of the 6's compliancy, and their natural tendency to introspect on logic AND get things externally. Naranjo correlated the 6 to ENTJ FYI; but I don't think that there is much of any correlation, 6s can be any MBTI type. (My best friend is an ISFP counterphobic 6w5, to contrast Naranjo's correlation)

Yeah, I don't really have any doubts about the wing anymore.

What exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean 4 doesn't fit *at all*? You're supposed to be able to relate to both of your neighbor's motivations and defense mechanisms to some degree, otherwise you're mistyped. I wouldn't quite dismiss 7s', if you read Naranjo then I'm sure it will all click for you. I didn't think I'd be able to relate to 8 or 1 like I should be able to (especially 1, they are so alien to me, especially being 9w8, and scoring literally 0 in type 1 traits on tests), being a 9, but when I read Naranjo their thought processes actually make a hell of a lot of sense when I apply them to myself.

I thought your first impression was that I was a counterphobic 6w5...?

It was, I meant more my impression of type 5. My bad. Te derp.

Same question as for skylights, tho: wouldn't sx/so be more people-focused?

It depends on the type. Type 5 socials are described as being very aware of social things yet remaining intentionally detached. 5s are still afraid of reality overwhelming them, and they tend to see this more in a people sense than an object/reality sense (self pres focus). so/sp and sp/so type 5s are the ultimate self efficient types because of this. A lot of social 5s aren't very social at all. They are more of the researcher types, who know a lot about everything, and know a lot about people too. It's all information to them. Sexual 5s are still very detached, yet less detached from the others. They are very aware of what they want, it seems to be more specific than a broad "desire". Their desires are broad but seem defined within them.

I'd say social 6s are the more "involved" types. Almost every 6 that I know that has the social instinct in their stacking are involved in *something*. For example my best friend is involved in a gym, regularly exercises, knows the "system" of fitness for example. He has a very systematic thought process, yet it's detached from him. 6s seem to take things for what they are and use them like that, and then later when they see that it's reliable they add onto it for themselves. Since 6s are all about authority, if they start using a "subject" in their daily lives it will be more of a detached approach and using it more as a tool, and only when it proves it's reliability will they make it apart of themselves.

As for sexual 6s, they want to integrate some form of authority in with themselves. They want things that are greater than themselves. They think that by immersing themselves in authority sorts of things, that they will grow as a person. I know an ENFP CP 6w7 sx/so, and he does this with the band stuff he does. He immersed himself in bands such as black flag, and they have hugely influenced his life and his anarchic thoughts toward things and how he performs on stage etc. He saw them as a thing to rely on when things were bad for him. Just as an example.

You seem to have done this, but with certain forms of philosophy. The thing you told me about your frat experience was very indicative of this as well. You saying that you have to be someone's bitch in order to really learn a lot about life indicates that you grew when you went along with an authority figure... rather than question it (which is the CP 6s' normal way of approaching things). On the inverse I think that phobic 6s grow when they decide to rebel against what they see as secure (since they are constantly seeking secure "hutches" to lean on in life).

Yeah, I think this is the necessary next step.

What would be your top three recommendations?

The only good enneagram book for the hardcore theory is Naranjo's book- Character and neurosis. http://www.amazon.com/Character-Neu...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325267359&sr=1-1 I sound like a dick when I say this, but I find it hard to have an intelligent discussion on the enneagram with people who haven't read this book. People who only go by online sources are unreliable at best. This book has become my bible basically ever since I bought it. This isn't to say other books are bad, but this one is the best for type descriptions. I for one really enjoy books that are about self improvement (like the wisdom of the enneagram).

Would that strike you as more of a 5 or a 6 thing to do?

Well you ARE an INTJ afterall... and it seems more 5. Yet, 5 wing needs to be considered.

I sound far more like a 5 based on the above.

At the bolded parts especially, I sound more like the 5.

At the underlined parts, the one thing I will say that does not fit me about the 5 is that I don't always think I'm better-informed.

I think when it comes to certain topics, there are definitely people who are more informed than I am.

On the whole, though, I do feel there are very few people more informed than me.

And I simply do not identify with the "not trusting your own mind" stuff of 6s.

Do I doubt things? Yes. Almost intentionally. I was trained to do so.

But am I incapable of trusting my own mind? No. Not at all.

In fact, I find my own mind pretty fucking fantastic.

ETA: And yes, I understand the considerable irony of this post.

All of the bolded in the first paragraph vibes me like something that would be like you. I also find it very strange that it would say 6s are linear in thinking. In ways they are very linear, when they are employing something that they find reliable. They have to reason to be nonlinear about it, since 6s seek reliability and doing important things in different ways makes non-reliability. Yet 6s are very nonlinear and seem to resort to their wing or other things that they know to be reliable to somehow correlate with the new thing that is presented (hence a lot of Te correlation from Naranjo).

I think that not trusting your own mind is more of a phobic 6 thing. They question things in that they don't trust much, while CP 6s have the utmost confidence in their abilities it seems because they are totally counter fear and stand up to things that cause them to question things. Perhaps this description was more aimed toward phobic 6 vs 5 discrepancies? Since that seems to be the more common mix-up.

If a 5 saw that on certain topics that there was someone more informed, they'd make sure to be more informed. Knowledge is protection to 5s, in every essence of the statement.

Everything you posted here sounds 6 to me really, lol. Like I said... counterphobic 6. Most 6 descriptions are of phobic 6. The fact that you're taking from authorities and mashing them together in your head and in this thread for answers points to 6 for me. A 5 would take their time to analyze the entire system and get their own understanding, and then preach about why they're right. What do you do? Go to an expert first. 6. You seem to always be evaluating your self knowledge based on external criteria, which fits in with 6 because their logic is both internally and externally focused.

Basically what I was saying is that e6 is kinda confusing because you are dealing primarily with phobic descriptions online. Like that bit you underlined from above...that is a phobic trait. Counterphobia is a whole different ball-game.

In the end I don't really know what you are...but I voted 6w5 as that would be my best guess. What may seem like 'e8 intergration' (to you and others?)...looks like e6 counterphobia to me.

+1000

 

[Zarathustra]

Thanks for the feedback everybody.

I won't be able to respond in detail right now, but I think I repped each of you something.

Hopefully I'll be able to reply in more detail by tomorrow, but, for the moment being, I'll leave you with this:

I recently came to the... not conclusion... but I decided to start more deeply studying the enneagram, with the goal of improving the health level of either my 6 wing or my inherent 6ness, as I acknowledged a number of things, many of which I've already known, to varying degrees, for most my life, rather acutely recently, and, whether I'm a 5w6 or a 6w5, learning to integrate more into 9 and not disintegrate into 3 -- I dunno -- there is something refreshing about that thought. It makes me feel good, in some sense. Light/warm/free in the chest. And if that's the feeling I get, it would seem to be a good path to follow. I feel no such compulsion with regards to learning to move to 8 and not 7. I feel like I've either already done the 5->8 thing, or, that that's just kind of what it feels like to be counterphobic. That's kind of the screwy thing about 5w6 vs 6w5: 5w6 disintegrates into 7, while 6 has a potential 7 wing, and, as such, should identify with it to some degree; 5w6 integrates into 8 when it's "doing well/being healthy/extroverting", while 6w5 goes counterphobic when it decides to not a be a victim (much like an 8) to fear; 5w6 integrates into 8w9, while 6w5 integrates into 9w8. There's just a lot of overlap. Makes various interpretations possible. For the moment, tho, the idea of learning to integrate into 9 as opposed to disintegrate into 3 would seem to hold a lot of promise for personal growth, and so that's the direction, at least for the moment, I plan on taking this thing *strives for the more 9ish, not 3ish, conclusion* that would seem best for me to go.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

If you are the Enneagram Type 5 with the 6 Wing, you desire to appear intellectual. You see yourself as changeable, receptive, careful, whimsical and trustworthy.

If you are the Enneagram Type 6 with the 5 Wing, you desire to appear remote. You see yourself as faithful, knowing, intelligent, refined, real and brave.

Did you ever read this thread? http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/enneagram/54436-dilemmas-type-6-type-7-helen-palmer.html

 

[Virtual ghost]

Thanks for the feedback everybody.

However I would like to say something.



The fact is that I dont know you that well and it is also a fact that you and I are of similar age.



The thing is that I am very sure that I am INTJ and that I am 5w6 (which acts more as a 8w9 lately) but desipte that I simply would not put you in the same box with me.


First of all I dont see any real emotional detachment in you or your actions. Being emotionally crippled is one of the main traits of 5s (perhaps even main trait)
And yet people think that 5 is just about introversion and wanting to be alone and intellectual. What is more of a consequence instead of a cause actually.



Also you seem to willing to go on a "crusade" in a descusion/debate defending your values. While I often ask myself "Do I even have values concerning this topic ?".
You seem to have a interesting and fluid life (from what I have seen) , maybe it is just a cultural thing for you but somehow I doubt this is the case.


Your avatars seem to be about being strong.
Often you are directly rude and underestimating.



Also you dated the Silly S if I remember correctly ?

To tell you the blunt truth I simply dont see how me and a person like her can have anything. But if you and I have the same MBTI and enneagram type we should be fairy similar in alot of ways despite of culture and everything else.





Any type can be analitical, so that is also not a real argument for anything ... as well as intelectual independance which in my opinion can be the key to your proper typing.



In my vision of you : your seem to want to have the intelectual independace (but you also seem to want to be informed). What in the end creates a constant struggle with in you. You may not notice it all the time but to me it seems that for you alot of things in life is about winning/struggle. And it is about winning because you desperatly want to win your independance that you deserve and want ...... but you fail in that over and over again since you actively play "the game". You might me quite intelectual but you are intelectual with pretty well defined goals and values ...... what does not allow you degree of independance you always wanted since you intuitively know that you are not detached enough.

Of curse you are not the kind of a person that will publicly admit that you are strongly loyal to anything ... even if the x factor are actually you own values. But instead you will push your picture more into the detachment zone even if you dont trully belong there.




So my limited impression is that you are a 6 (counterphobic), perhaps even with the w7. (type 8 is also option on the table) But I simply dont see any real type 5 traits in you. You seem to have too much energy , charisma , values ...... etc to pass as a type 5. (even with w6). Maybe you are surrounded all your life with more open and happy people then yourself so you dont see the full spectrum and you dont realize that there is still fair amount of spectrum between you and real detachment.



My 2 cents.

 

[Lady_X]

may be an odd thing to ask but cc was supposedly a 4w5...how well did you relate to her 5ness? i thought i was a 7w8 until i dated an 8w7....if that makes sense...

 

[PeaceBaby]

$10, 25 minutes.

Do this one: http://www.enneagram.net/tests/index.html#fullenneacards

Post back what your tritype is.