Stuck in IxTP Limbo

[alcea rosea]

From what I've read you're really quite different than me! You're cautious about things, you worry about bad things happening to you if you take risks (even driving!!!) and you prefer not to move! That's TOTALLY un-me! As your extroverted counterpart I'd think that you'd be more like me than that!

Remeber - Whatever - that Se is ISTP's auxiliary function. So, they think first before moving. At least one ISTP that I know does it.

 

["?"]

Remeber - Whatever - that Se is ISTP's auxiliary function. So, they think first before moving. At least one ISTP that I know does it.

I'm in love

 

[INTJMom]

I would've thought these types were relatively easy to decide between. Especially if you take Keirsey's interpretation of them into account. The ISTP is the 'operator'. The gunslingers of the old west and the hitmen and assassins of today. Give them a tool; they will operate it. And they do it with such finesse that they look good in the process. Perfect for handiwork; from mechanics and builders to snipers. From birth, these guys are fiddling with some kind of machinery or tool, and if not, they're in the process of making it. ISTPs can be very adventurous and fun-loving; their the most common type of introverted Seven (in the Enneagram), but Fives, Sixes and many Nines can quite easily be ISTPs IMO.

The INTP is a much more in-their-head type. They're complex characters who build systems (along with the ENTP, while the xNTJs implement them) with their ideas. Much more than that, I couldn't say. You'd have to find someone with a better understanding of an INTP than me (e.g. an INTP).

I remember a post from when I first got here. I went to find the one I was thinking of. I remembered PT having a similar trial of trying to discern which type he was. Maybe there's a certain breed of ISTP that has a little more trouble figuring it out, if they don't fit the description well enough.

...
In short, I grew up believing I was an INTP and pursued those directions very much. It's kind of sad because I was a huge sports guy (although not the way people think of sports - solo sports like skiing, swimming... and limited sports like tennis) and chose computers as my escape. Although I love technology, I hit a brick wall with technology... I then tried philosophy and psychology with similar brick walls. Eventually I went into finance, although I needed a job in the meantime... and that job led into this one. I'm only now accepting my nature better and starting to adjust the way I do things. Least work is paying for my courses this time.

But honestly, looking back, there are just too many factors with ISTPs to nail it down. Look into finance if there is a math inclination... I was failing math in elementary school, but my parents put me into Kumon - math tutoring thing and now... well, I'm decidedly not bad at it, so don't judge it by school measurements alone. They bought me a computer and I loved that. They put me into chess club, skiing, tennis... just about everything. It was the best thing possible for me. It seems like we come into our own at a later age if we are able to try enough things. The emphasis on past experiences is very important. Most of the stories here are dramatic versions of "wow, I found what I wanted!"... but really, we want to do everything. At some point something from our past or present opens up some kind of door and the rest is history.

Course, this refers to the period between one and two decades ago so things have changed. But I know more recent STPs that loved building models... everything from just models to racing cars to planes/helis. The same SPs show remarkable talent with strange things, like 3d modeling and such.

And not to be unPC yet again today, intelligence plays a large part in this as well. In general, significantly above average SPs seem to have a knack for doing just about everything, but in particular, they tend to be information processors (ie: analysts and such). I thought of that as an INTP trait for a long time until I came across some research on how higher corporate SPs act - seems that's the trend.

So, IMO, it's hard to give any direct advice. Pushing them to do things is probably the single most important thing. Instead of a summer job as McDonalds, a job packing computers (me!) is better... so is volunteer work, so are camps... anything, really. It doesn't even have to depend on means, really, since a lot of the things can be cheap or free.

But motivation might be tough - the sensitive parts for ISTPs is being able to do something. Always emphasise what they'd be able to do (ie: work for a mechanic? Fix a girl's car! Dance? Think Bond!) with their experience.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

This INTJ thing has totally blown my mind. I’m going to look into it.

Also, I think I was wrong when I said I prefer sponges to beer bongs, I actually do beer bong information when I find something interesting.

I don't know why I can't keep my shit straight.

 

[miss fortune]

Also, I think I was wrong when I said I prefer sponges to beer bongs

Sass and Magic Sponge sitting in a tree.....

 

["?"]

This INTJ thing has totally blown my mind. I’m going to look into it.

Again referring back to interaction styles, when communicating with others, do you (Direct or Inform) - All communications that involve getting someone else to do something can be classified along a continuum from very directive to very informing. This dynamic involves the style of the communication as well as the words.

Do you focus your attention and interest on (Controling or Movement) - In any given interaction, we attend to different aspects. Some people are more focused on controlling some aspect of the interaction. Others are more focused on moving things along.

Also Improvisers (SP) and Catalyst (NF) consider motives of others

Motives are the reasons people do things. They must be paid attention to in order to get the desired results. Knowing a person’s motives provides [people expressing Improviser] cues to freely respond as the other person pursues his or her wants or needs. [Berens]

People expressing Improviser can be cynical about human motives… they harbour no illusions about people being noble or saintly – “come off it”, says the [archetypal Improviser], no matter how virtuous we think ourselves, we all have feet of clay, we are all ultimately corruptible and self-serving. [Keirsey]

(When the Improviser and Theorist patterns are expressed together, the result can be especially sardonic, as the cynicism associated with the Improviser pattern and the scepticism associated with the Theorist pattern can feed upon one another).

Although this focus on Motives is shared with the Catalyst pattern, the interpretation of motivations by someone expressing Improviser is more down-to-earth than by someone expressing Catalyst. Viewed through the Improviser pattern, people’s motives might be a source of suspicion, but viewed through the Catalyst pattern, motives express the unique identities of individuals.

Theorists (NT) and Traditionalists (SJ) focus on structure

In the Theorist pattern, the structural attention goes to the abstract and multidimensional, as in logic and matrices, coordinates, and organizing principles. Theorist structures provide implementation strategies, and at the same time they provide ways to catalogue and master the principles of how the world operates. The goal is for all to learn to be more competent and efficient within the system. [Berens]

Once again, we can see how this description fits well with the nature of the scientific endeavour, which is also focussed on uncovering the underlying structure of the universe. However, not everyone who expresses the Theorist temperament strongly will necessarily lean towards the scientific – any situation involving the organisation of complex systems (such as the internal operations of a corporation) will also suit this general focus on how things are structured.

The focus on Structure is shared with the Traditionalist pattern, but the focus of those expressing Traditionalist is generally rules and responsibilities – about defining what is appropriate or what can be expected – whereas the Theorist pattern is more associated with systemic structures. Indeed, systems are at the very heart of the Theorist temperament, as we shall see from examining the type of intelligence associated with this pattern.

 

[htb]

Highly intelligent ISTPs intersect with INTPs. Why, I don't know; but they do. Hence Sassafrassquatch.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

Again referring back to interaction styles, when communicating with others, do you (Direct or Inform) - All communications that involve getting someone else to do something can be classified along a continuum from very directive to very informing. This dynamic involves the style of the communication as well as the words.

Do you focus your attention and interest on (Controling or Movement) - In any given interaction, we attend to different aspects. Some people are more focused on controlling some aspect of the interaction. Others are more focused on moving things along.

Also Improvisers (SP) and Catalyst (NF) consider motives of others

Theorists (NT) and Traditionalists (SJ) focus on structure

So right now I'm thinking like this:

I – 100% balls to the wall

S/N –

T –

Cognitive Processes

Te - Extraverted Thinking

Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively. Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.

That sounds pretty good.

J/P – Since most of my activity is on the computer I see that my file system is immaculate, a folder for everything and everything in its folder. My MP3s are tagged and organized perfectly, clutter and stray files are kept to a minimum and everything is very tidy. My room, well, it’s not tidy but it’s not a mess either. I know where everything is and my bed is rarely made. I know J isn’t all about being organized and scheduled but, blah. I don’t really feel as open and unfettered as a P would. I want things to be reasonably certain, stable, nailed down. I don’t like surprises, last minute decisions or loose ends.


Out of the four IxTx types ISTJ and INTP are right out, ISTP is close but INTJ is also interesting.

 

[alcea rosea]

So right now I'm thinking like this:

I – 100% balls to the wall

S/N –

T –

That sounds pretty good.

Good description!

 

["?"]

T –

That sounds pretty good.

J/P – Since most of my activity is on the computer I see that my file system is immaculate, a folder for everything and everything in its folder. My MP3s are tagged and organized perfectly, clutter and stray files are kept to a minimum and everything is very tidy. My room, well, it’s not tidy but it’s not a mess either. I know where everything is and my bed is rarely made. I know J isn’t all about being organized and scheduled but, blah. I don’t really feel as open and unfettered as a P would. I want things to be reasonably certain, stable, nailed down. I don’t like surprises, last minute decisions or loose ends.

Uhhh, since you prefer Te to Ti, you have made your decision. Te preference is down the line for ITPs. You are claiming ITJ. Again INFJ, INTJ, ISTJ and ISTP use Chart the Course in interaction style. It at least rules out INTP. You could be ISTJ.

 

[ygolo]

I wouldn't be too hasty to rule out ISTP.

I've known several very organized ISTPs (and ESTPs) who drive for closure. Organization is often as much an aesthetic thing as it is a functional thing. Sometimes SPs just like the look and feel of an organized something (others like the look-and-feel of clutter). The T would then keep the organization utilitarian.

Even INTPs want closure for their Ti's. How does you use something without really have things pinned down? In my designs (software or hardware), I keep things very structured. I also know where most of things I care about are, though my room is, objectively a mess.

Life themes and flavors of type will modify descriptions slightly.

For instance being involved in the "physical" life theme will make you seem more SP. This goes for all types and temperaments. Being more involved in the "entrepreneurial" life-theme will make you seem more NT, no matter what your actual temperament.

Lack of development of your auxiliary, can lead to relying on other extraverted functions too much(like Te), instead of channeling the needs exposed by those functions through the auxiliary. When I was younger, I believe I relied on a weak Fe too much (resulting in my current oversensitive neurosis).

But adding to a former thought of "?". Are you more of a planner, a conceptualizer or an analyzer?

I suppose the simplest most revealing question is: "What makes you unique?"

 

[sassafrassquatch]

Fuck it. This is a waste of time. Every description is written so ambiguously I can’t make sense of anything.

 

[alicia91]

I can certainly understand why you feel that way! I think that they are ambiguously written also. I've been studying the functions and in any single day can say that I've pretty much used every single one. Makes me wonder if people can't just convince themselves that they are whatever they want to be. It might help if the creators of these systems used more examples of behaviors rather than just descriptors.

That said, I found the book Do What You Are to be the single most helpful thing in determining my type (not that I'm a super-close fit). What really helped me was reading about the everyday people who are the examples of each type.

 

["?"]

Fuck it. This is a waste of time. Every description is written so ambiguously I can’t make sense of anything.

Sas you are confirming my thoughts for starting this thread. Introverts cannot determine their true type from assessments and surely not from reading descriptions. You come from a very subjective perception as an introvert and if you do use Ti you are compartmentalizing. Stop kidding yourself and assess your true self with tests and things that are outside of your control and comfort zone. Your frustration is noted, which makes me believe that you want to see movement and closure, thus you could be one of the Chart the Course types, assuming you have totallydiscounted being extraverted.

 

[INTJMom]

...
That said, I found the book Do What You Are to be the single most helpful thing in determining my type (not that I'm a super-close fit). What really helped me was reading about the everyday people who are the examples of each type.

Me, too.

 

[Totenkindly]

J/P -- Since most of my activity is on the computer I see that my file system is immaculate, a folder for everything and everything in its folder. My MP3s are tagged and organized perfectly, clutter and stray files are kept to a minimum and everything is very tidy. My room, well, it's not tidy but it's not a mess either. I know where everything is and my bed is rarely made. I know J isn't all about being organized and scheduled but, blah. I don’t really feel as open and unfettered as a P would. I want things to be reasonably certain, stable, nailed down. I don't like surprises, last minute decisions or loose ends.

What was your childhood like?

If you were in a LTR with someone who demanded every jot and tittle be in place, who organized more about you, who wanted to keep track of your time spent out and what you were doing and when you would come home, etc.... how would you feel about organization then?

(For example, I'm supposed to be flexible... and in many ways I am... but in other ways, I feel very rigid and inflexible despite being obviously P. I can't really stand when people surprise me by changing my plans for me or adding things to my schedule; wanting to manage risk means I hate being blind-sided; I really do like stability, so that I don't have to focus on maintaining my life. I want it all just to happen on its own, so I can focus elsewhere. I can also sit around and think of great ways to organize my files and books and CDs and other things... but just have trouble sticking with the system. Even though I'd rather have it organized -- as opposed to messy, and the mess bothers me after awhile -- it's too hard for me to tear myself away from my head games to commit energy to it. I think ISTPs are better at physical organization than INTPs.)

 

["?"]

I found the book Do What You Are to be the single most helpful thing in determining my type (not that I'm a super-close fit). What really helped me was reading about the everyday people who are the examples of each type.

I have Paul and Barbara Tieger’s collection and I find their theory oversimplified in attempting to use dichotomies in speedreading or attempting to determine type. Their theory, as does Otto Kroeger’s does not take into consideration the functions and attitudes. How do you know if what you are seeing for example is Ti-Ne being used or Ni-Fe? I posted a thread that ask the question.

Again going back to my example, both INTPs and INFJs can have a sense of detachment and disconnection and are comfortable with complexity. They can both focus on people and their interactions. The only way to know that the person is using Ti-Ne, and not Ni-Fe, is to discern if the person is making inferences to people by using the principles or models of something. Otherwise what you may be witnessing is a person attempting to connect or disconnect with impressionistic images.

It gets more confusing because INJs, like ISJs have a “one thing at a time” usage, which can easily be confused with a focus on principles. Something that I have experienced is perceiving types will take in a lot and decipher the material internally, whereas judging types can feel overwhelmed by too much information and immediately ask you to stop in order to uniform the information in order understand what was said. More so, there is Lenore Thomson’s theory that ITPs use Fi as their secondary introverted function and IFJs use Te as their secondary external function. I would think that the functions can easily be developed to confuse an onlooker.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

What was your childhood like?

If you were in a LTR with someone who demanded every jot and tittle be in place, who organized more about you, who wanted to keep track of your time spent out and what you were doing and when you would come home, etc.... how would you feel about organization then?

(For example, I'm supposed to be flexible... and in many ways I am... but in other ways, I feel very rigid and inflexible despite being obviously P. I can't really stand when people surprise me by changing my plans for me or adding things to my schedule; wanting to manage risk means I hate being blind-sided; I really do like stability, so that I don't have to focus on maintaining my life. I want it all just to happen on its own, so I can focus elsewhere. I can also sit around and think of great ways to organize my files and books and CDs and other things... but just have trouble sticking with the system. Even though I'd rather have it organized -- as opposed to messy, and the mess bothers me after awhile -- it's too hard for me to tear myself away from my head games to commit energy to it. I think ISTPs are better at physical organization than INTPs.)

My parents are fundamentalist christian ISTJs and my dad is very, very J. He’s a persnickety, fastidious, perfectionist bordering on OCD. Growing up was very stable, everything planned in advance, very orderly and I was socially isolated. I was home schooled until I was 13

 

[sassafrassquatch]

I took this test and got this:

Jung Test Results

Your type is: ISTJ

Introverted (I) 90% Extroverted (E) 10%
Sensing (S) 90% Intuitive (N) 10%
Thinking (T) 72.97% Feeling (F) 27.03%
Judging (J) 65.71% Perceiving (P) 34.29%

ISTJ - "Trustee". Decisiveness in practical affairs. Guardian of time- honored institutions. Dependable. 11.6% of total population.

Enneagram Test Results

Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||| 76%
Type 2 Helpfulness || 10%
Type 3 Image Awareness |||||| 23%
Type 4 Sensitivity |||||||||| 36%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||||||||| 90%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||||||| 86%
Type 7 Adventurousness || 10%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||| 23%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||| 40%

type score type behavior motivation
5 27 I must be knowledgable and independent to be happy.
6 26 I must be secure and safe to be happy.
1 23 I must be perfect and good to be happy.
9 12 I must be peaceful and easy to get along with to be happy.

 

[Mycroft]

My parents are fundamentalist christian ISTJs and my dad is very, very J. He’s a persnickety, fastidious, perfectionist bordering on OCD. Growing up was very stable, everything planned in advance, very orderly and I was socially isolated. I was home schooled until I was 13

Ps who grew up in especially J households tend to test a bit more J. Our upbringing has a huge influence on our preferences for cleanliness and orderliness, and the tests do indeed tend to put too much weight on these for determining J or P.

I have a friend who, while undeniably being an ESTP, has the neatest apartment of anyone I know and never called off or came in late once in the nearly two years I worked with him. From the stories I've heard, his mother kept their home looking like a display home for a real estate company.

Just to cite an example.