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INTJ or INTp or ENTP or INTJ or ENFJ or INFP or ISFP...???? WhoTF cares!?

R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
Sooooooooooooo... I've broken down and started this thread. I cannot for the life of me pin down whether my four letter prison ends with a J or a P. Most of you don't know who I am and so I can't expect too much at first, but hopefully this will change quickly.

Ask questions accordingly. Thanks in advance!
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
four letter prison? you're a P :laugh:

new idea. have you run through all the functions? if you can figure out which functions you rely on the most and are most natural at, then you'll get a good sense of your type without having to worry about J-P outwardly. that was they way i resolved my E-I dilemma.

other than that, how do you feel about decision-making?
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
four letter prison? you're a P :laugh:

new idea. have you run through all the functions? if you can figure out which functions you rely on the most and are most natural at, then you'll get a good sense of your type without having to worry about J-P outwardly. that was they way i resolved my E-I dilemma.

other than that, how do you feel about decision-making?

I have, but I feel that I am too biased in my self evaluation of which functions I use. I always feel like I may be lying on them. For example I may misunderstand the functions and there meaning so what I think is Ne is actually Ni and so forth... it's irritating.

Decision-making? Hmmmm... that's a tricky situation. It's not that I don't like making them, but I never feel that I'll make the best choice so I end up not making them at all, hoping that I get a definite cue in order to make a right decision, from some one, or thing. Ironically enough the only way to know if I'm good at making decisions is to make them.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
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INFP
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6w7
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so/sx
I have, but I feel that I am too biased in my self evaluation of which functions I use. I always feel like I may be lying on them. For example I may misunderstand the functions and there meaning so what I think is Ne is actually Ni and so forth... it's irritating.

good point, that's smart of you. :yes: especially since if you are close to the J-P border, then your functions will be weak preferences, so they might not be super obvious. one thing about Ne vs Ni that makes it obvious to me - just in case it's helpful to you - is that Ni users generally get a good sense of how things will go in the future. i have little sense of this, lol. i have about 500 ideas about how it might go, but i don't have much confidence to pin one as the most likely.

Decision-making? Hmmmm... that's a tricky situation. It's not that I don't like making them, but I never feel that I'll make the best choice so I end up not making them at all, hoping that I get a definite cue in order to make a right decision, from some one, or thing. Ironically enough the only way to know if I'm good at making decisions is to make them.

i'm sure you already know this, but just to analyze it, J is a preference for making decisions while P is the preference for gathering information. it sounds here that you are stalling decision to gather more information, which does suggest P.

i live with two INTPs and i feel like both of them are very close to the J-P border too, which is part of why i'm quick to guess you as P. they both are meticulous with their possessions and are very organized in some ways, and disorganized in others. both like having a sense of what the plan is, and can be very annoyed when the plan changes, but both can also really procrastinate endless amounts and be quite avoidant.

so what makes you think J, and what makes you think P?
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
i'm sure you already know this, but just to analyze it, J is a preference for making decisions while P is the preference for gathering information. it sounds here that you are stalling decision to gather more information, which does suggest P.

i live with two INTPs and i feel like both of them are very close to the J-P border too, which is part of why i'm quick to guess you as P. they both are meticulous with their possessions and are very organized in some ways, and disorganized in others. both like having a sense of what the plan is (like a J), and can be very annoyed when the plan changes, but both can also really procrastinate endless amounts and be quite avoidant.

so what makes you think J, and what makes you think P?

I read a description about J and a fact that resonated with me is my need for closure. I do procrastinate, but doing so makes me jumpy and nervous, this makes me believe that perhaps I would rather just finish whatever task I'm given, but this isn't so as I continuously stall. This is where the uncertainty of this aspect comes into play. I have this nagging feeling that whenever I'm making a decision that I'm making them based on what someone else would do and not what I would do. I feel awkward and unauthentic because of this, which (to bridge over to another issue I have) makes me think that I'm an F because I take consideration from others way too much, which kills the independency that is strongly associated with T's. Before I get too far off track; I think I am J as well because of my punctuality. I strongly dislike being late, however this could be linked to a feeling of guilt that I am inconviencing others, so I try to push such thoughts aside and I relax. As I write this I understand that none of these really define what F would be because it's all about how you make a decision not about emotions. When I make decisions I am more objective nowadays than I would be before. I can detach myself from my values in order to make a decision and I do rather well I believe. I haven't really analyzed that aspect of my decision making in full I suppose.

I have read so much about this and I find so many contradictions and I read from those and take in information from those that don't really know what they're talking about, but I realized to late and now I'm stuck with a ton of contradictions, which I'm trying sort into false and true statements. This makes me think that I am T, however the almost exact same set of functions (though in different order) correspond with INFJ (a type which some say is the most thinking of the feelers). I'm stuck.

Sorry for the length.
 

Moonstone3

New member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
182
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
9, 5
I read a description about J and a fact that resonated with me is my need for closure. I do procrastinate, but doing so makes me jumpy and nervous, this makes me believe that perhaps I would rather just finish whatever task I'm given, but this isn't so as I continuously stall. This is where the uncertainty of this aspect comes into play. I have this nagging feeling that whenever I'm making a decision that I'm making them based on what someone else would do and not what I would do. I feel awkward and unauthentic because of this, which (to bridge over to another issue I have) makes me think that I'm an F because I take consideration from others way too much, which kills the independency that is strongly associated with T's. Before I get too far off track; I think I am J as well because of my punctuality. I strongly dislike being late, however this could be linked to a feeling of guilt that I am inconviencing others, so I try to push such thoughts aside and I relax. As I write this I understand that none of these really define what F would be because it's all about how you make a decision not about emotions. When I make decisions I am more objective nowadays than I would be before. I can detach myself from my values in order to make a decision and I do rather well I believe. I haven't really analyzed that aspect of my decision making in full I suppose.

I have read so much about this and I find so many contradictions and I read from those and take in information from those that don't really know what they're talking about, but I realized to late and now I'm stuck with a ton of contradictions, which I'm trying sort into false and true statements. This makes me think that I am T, however the almost exact same set of functions (though in different order) correspond with INFJ (a type which some say is the most thinking of the feelers). I'm stuck.

Sorry for the length.

You sound like me.:laugh: Lack of decision making, detaching yourself from values to make a decision-to an extent. These sound like INTP qualities, compounded by the fact that you can't figure out a type. Is your decision making stalling because you are trying to find the best possible answer? If so, that's INTP. My best friend is INFJ, and she needs stuff to be over and done. She will often do a half-job to get something done. I don't do halfway. I can't decide. If you were a J, you'd end the stalling. I do factor in how others feel when making a choice. I don't think many people know this is a hidden INTP trait. I think it has do with creating the overall, least chaotic good in an environment.
How often you go off on small tangents in your writing sounds like INTP, too.
I haven't really analyzed that aspect of my decision making in full I suppose.
This sentence screams INTP.:yes: You don't want to state your position because you haven't sat down and sorted your thoughts and reached a full conclusion, so no one can completely hold you to what you say-you're not fully sure, yet.
The fact that you're pouring so much thought into all this and researching sounds INTP.
I can see how many think the INFJ is the most thinking feeler. They just hide it well. But I sort that one out quickly by asking this one question: Do you react because of feelings or thoughts? Spur of the moment decision making is a trait of my friend. These usually come out of fear, vulnerability, or extreme anger. I didn't answer her calls for a week and she deleted my number, deleted her My Space, and changed her email. This looks like a thinker, being able to shut feelings out-but it's actually a feeler because she did all this out of a combo of 'anger', 'assuming I was mad' and 'looking stupid.'
I may contemplate many things in an emotional moment, or 2 hours as I was driving yesterday morning, but I wait and look at all possible aspects of the situation, and decide if my emotions are rational before I ever show them-unless I am compromised-then I freak.
Hope all this rambling helps!:)
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
You sound like me.:laugh: Lack of decision making, detaching yourself from values to make a decision-to an extent. These sound like INTP qualities, compounded by the fact that you can't figure out a type. Is your decision making stalling because you are trying to find the best possible answer? If so, that's INTP.

I search for the best possible answer, coupled with a fear of not wanting to make the wrong answer, which makes me contemplate to the max. Still INTP sounding?

My best friend is INFJ, and she needs stuff to be over and done. She will often do a half-job to get something done. I don't do halfway. I can't decide. If you were a J, you'd end the stalling. I do factor in how others feel when making a choice. I don't think many people know this is a hidden INTP trait. I think it has do with creating the overall, least chaotic good in an environment.
How often you go off on small tangents in your writing sounds like INTP, too.

I'm liking this consistency.

This sentence screams INTP.:yes: You don't want to state your position because you haven't sat down and sorted your thoughts and reached a full conclusion, so no one can completely hold you to what you say-you're not fully sure, yet.
The fact that you're pouring so much thought into all this and researching sounds INTP.
I can see how many think the INFJ is the most thinking feeler. They just hide it well. But I sort that one out quickly by asking this one question: Do you react because of feelings or thoughts? Spur of the moment decision making is a trait of my friend. These usually come out of fear, vulnerability, or extreme anger. I didn't answer her calls for a week and she deleted my number, deleted her My Space, and changed her email. This looks like a thinker, being able to shut feelings out-but it's actually a feeler because she did all this out of a combo of 'anger', 'assuming I was mad' and 'looking stupid.'
I may contemplate many things in an emotional moment, or 2 hours as I was driving yesterday morning, but I wait and look at all possible aspects of the situation, and decide if my emotions are rational before I ever show them-unless I am compromised-then I freak.
Hope all this rambling helps!:)

This is also very comforting to hear. The reassurance helps X100 fold. Thank you.

P.S. I find myself in a lot of those scenarios and I think I would have acted the same way.
 

Noon

New member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
790
ReflecttcelfeR: simulatedworld and Eric B suggested that rather than as skill sets, it can be beneficial to view the functions as perspectives (I assumed it meant that the dominant function would be equal to the person's dominant outlook on the world).

I struggled with trying to find my type because many functions tests suggested that I was skilled in them unevenly (unevenly as in not consistent with one single specific type), but by viewing them as perspectives, it was much easier for me to realize I am a Fi dom. I'm not sure if it will help you much, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to bring it up.

I think one more helpful thing can be to check out this thread on double checking your type. I was able to narrow down my choices significantly by keeping in mind my Behind-the-Scenes interaction style and concrete language.

FWIW, you strike me as an NTP type!
 

Moonstone3

New member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
182
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
9, 5
I search for the best possible answer, coupled with a fear of not wanting to make the wrong answer, which makes me contemplate to the max. Still INTP sounding?
Yes, absolutely! To me.

P.S. Checked your profile. Looks very INTP, to me. You stay vague. No profile picture? I pained me to put mine up.:laugh:
Your biography: I existed. Mine is similar, if posted at all-can't remember. Check out my bible belt-I don't say where.

Actually, I remember seeing your last type you listed, don't remember it though. I didn't think it fit.
I could understand and agree with too many of your posts for you to be anything other than INTP.
I could always be wrong, though.:yim_rolling_on_the_
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
ReflecttcelfeR: simulatedworld and Eric B suggested that rather than as skill sets, it can be beneficial to view the functions as perspectives (I assumed it meant that the dominant function would be equal to the person's dominant outlook on the world).

I struggled with trying to find my type because many functions tests suggested that I was skilled in them unevenly (unevenly as in not consistent with one single specific type), but by viewing them as perspectives, it was much easier for me to realize I am a Fi dom. I'm not sure if it will help you much, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to bring it up.

I think one more helpful thing can be to check out this thread on double checking your type. I was able to narrow down my choices significantly by keeping in mind my Behind-the-Scenes interaction style and concrete language.

FWIW, you strike me as an NTP type!

That link gave a good confirmation. The temperament description for the last choice was a little difficult for me, but this is because I know about cognitive functions. Thank you. Every thing is worth something.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
Yes, absolutely! To me.

P.S. Checked your profile. Looks very INTP, to me. You stay vague. No profile picture? I pained me to put mine up.:laugh:
Your biography: I existed. Mine is similar, if posted at all-can't remember. Check out my bible belt-I don't say where.

Actually, I remember seeing your last type you listed, don't remember it though. I didn't think it fit.
I could understand and agree with too many of your posts for you to be anything other than INTP.
I could always be wrong, though.:yim_rolling_on_the_

I think you may have just locked it in. :) I do feel better now. As much as I enjoy being alone it's nice to know someone else can relate.
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Yes, absolutely! To me.

P.S. Checked your profile. Looks very INTP, to me. You stay vague. No profile picture? I pained me to put mine up.:laugh:
Your biography: I existed. Mine is similar, if posted at all-can't remember. Check out my bible belt-I don't say where.

Actually, I remember seeing your last type you listed, don't remember it though. I didn't think it fit.
I could understand and agree with too many of your posts for you to be anything other than INTP.
I could always be wrong, though.:yim_rolling_on_the_

And that's how it's done. :workout:

d'aww this whole exchange has been cute.

and yay i'm glad you both figured out your type!!! :cheers:
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
I'm back! What are the chances of me being an F...? This is extremely frustrating. And I changed my I to an E. I'm beginning to doubt why I even tried to type myself in the first place.
 

Quintessence

New member
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
20
MBTI Type
XNTJ
Enneagram
1
A Short Treatise on MBTI Traits, with an Emphasis on Delineation of the J/P Trait in Particular:happy2:

In reality, we are none of these things per se. We are persons who have souls that we cannot even begin to comprehend unless we open up beyond who we seem to be, leading into who we really are. These systems of personality analysis just help us do that, they don't define us. We define ourselves...

I define myself far beyond the scope of MBTI and similar tests and assessments. Yet they do have a lot to say about how I might try to "get a grip" on myself and try to fulfill my potential. I know very well that I am introverted, but I also realize that I am extroverted under the right conditions. It is still more stressful for me than it will be for someone who is normally extroverted. That's sort of a baseline of meaning of personality that Jung has established rather beyond reasonable doubt, and it holds to this day, and it seems like it always held but it was waiting for someone like him with enough intellect and guts combined to say it.

I think that the I/E domain is very accurate, but the other domains are more slippery. They seem less a function of nature than of nurture in some, more of the reverse in others. They seem as though they are built upon the primary I/E orientation as compensatory factors on the one hand, yet with their own functions to fulfill on the other. So, I think that we should allow ourselves more flexibility in thinking about them, because they are rather more dynamic than the I/E trait, and the I/E trait isn't as inflexible as some people seem to think.

But the brain/mind relation does have a tendency to prefer to resolve cognitive dissonance on the foundational level by weighing down on either I or E. It is a gross economic indicator of the psyche's functioning rather than a function per se, a sort of set of other less clear functions which when all rolled up look like a preference to "reach out to the object" or to "abstract from the object", a preference either to "face the inner object" or else to "project the inner object", for example.

But when we look at intuition versus sensation we are looking at something that seems to be similarly structured: Does the psyche find more efficiency in relating to the empirical experience, especially as it is immediately given, or does it trust the more synthetic and collective metasensation that seems to be involved? That is something that looks like it is parallel to the I/E question for the psychical economy, but it is more flexible since the domain is more specialized than the overall psychical economy, and it pertains to phenomena which are more distinct and graspable than is the question of subject/object per se. Anyone can grasp sensations, and intuitions have a sort of objective quality to them as well. Yet all these have a subjective intensity which is innately private. They are more of a mixture of subject/object while being distinct in that sensations pertain more to the part and the form when concrete and intuitions pertain to the whole and the content when abstract. So there is a lot of room here for paradigm shifting because abstract sensation and concrete intuitions are possible, though each are a little difficult to imagine. Yet one can see that intuitions may concern forms, and sensations may concern contents (matter as structural, energy as functional). That is kind of abstract in reference to our topic, but we can see that multiple approaches are possible for the same situation depending on one's outlook and paradigm when it comes to intuition and sensation, and the S can understand and compliment the N and vice versa in more tangible ways than can the E and the I. They are able to integrate aspects of the complimentary trait in a way more true to actually specializing in the other trait under certain favorable conditions, even if they are strongly specialized in one of them as opposed to the other. This is a functional reality, but is also a compensatory reality to the I/E foundation which guides it somewhat.

I think that these two will typically mature into a baseline together so that the orientation and dominant function are pretty stable and are pretty much what Jung laid out. It seems true to what we are. Is it the best description? Probably not. It probably fits into a larger picture that is better nuanced and better related to our actual reality. Even so, I think we only gain by accepting this useful half-measure, as will all other theoretical paradigms that are competently created in earnest sincerity, and then creatively applied with with sincere self-reflection.

That leaves us with the stragglers which are less metapsychological and less cognitive in terms of basic structure and are more concretely related to conscious will and purpose, more reducible to verifiable functionality. The thinking and feeling are clearly important and clearly more amenable to conscious will, since you can easily suppress or savor feelings, choose to ignore them or choose to follow them, let them color your decisions or choose not to, explore and delineate them or let them remain dull and blurry, shape them into structures with complex systems of peculating energy or let the exist like some sort of wild landscape that you live in with uncontrollable features and weather that you adapt to and live in, whether you like it or not. Your thoughts may be guided or pell-mell, focused or loose, tangential or to the point, complex or simple, abstract or concrete, logical or analogical, analytic or synthetic, applied or abstract. Thought and feeling are much more amenable to your choice of method, much more adaptive to situations as situations demand, much more a result of nurture than of nature in their final form (think of socialization and education, experiences and experiments).

This brings us down to your issue. Judgment or Perception. This domain is much less a function of foundational psychical structure, or visceral/cerebrotic approaches to experience. These are more a question of cognitive style vs. efficiency. Some find that seeking closure is expedient and demanded by other necessities, some find it saliently more satisfying on emotional grounds or aesthetic ones. Yet all the same could be said for a willingness to let judgment remain labile and exploratory. But even here there could be many complex permutations of rationale which yet cloak a deep-seated motive coming from all the way in the psyche's roots, the I/E trait. This level could show a preference like this: I prefers J due to the capacity to support the somewhat Stoic pattern of psychical functioning this enables, while E prefers P because of the feedback loop with objects and others that maximizes optimal behavior patterns conducive to their well-being. In the end, it could be a mere matter of style or taste on this point, and it could compensate for deeper preferences rather than complement them.

So I think you may safely know your J or P preference by finding out if you have either a Stoic or an Epicurean mindset with regard to handling the flow of experience in different areas, but especially with regard to emotive/cognitive features. There is probably enough variablity in this area that it could change a lot over life for some, and it could change in different areas while remaining fixed in others.

I don't like to pinch off thoughts when it comes to something that really interests me, for example, and this is to the dismay of many who would prefer the abridged version. Yet when it comes to handling the influx of data, I am J to the max. I want to reach an assessment and feel it. But I am always amenable to updating it. So there are ways that you may understand the J or P aspect in terms of either inner or outer behavior, in terms of situational requirements or the lack thereof. It may be that you are J with regard to some features of your other three domains or are P dependent upon the way your conscious ego waxes and wanes.

I could make a pragmatic recommendation, based on all of the above:

Engage in experiences which shake your psyche up. Do extreme things from time to time and notice how your psyche changes in regards to areas where you are normally J or P in the ensuing periods of time. This, or at least do something extremely unusual. See how you operate in that environment. There are habitual traits people have which show some aspect of this change, such as procrastination. People will put off something until the last minute, then suddenly they are knocking it out. They are "P" with regard to getting it done, but then become suddenly "J" since their time is almost up. They are forced to show their hand. Games of strategy open windows here: when do you finally decide your move? On what basis? How does this change in various circumstances? Are you an opportunistic counter-attacker, for example? Why? Is it because you don't judge the situation to demand a given set of plans? Does an objective analysis of the position reveal that you had access to better and more forceful play but you would simply had rather not done so and so you made moves that lacked structure because your time was running low? That might reveal one way that J and P are relative to conditions. If you are an expert in the King's Gambit, you will flow through decisions in this fast paced, sharp and yet relatively unclear opening system in Chess. If you are not you will need a long period of thinking before you make your moves, none of which have a strategic view and merely are tactical reactions to what your opponent does. The former is more J, the latter more P, and this will change over time in that opening. Do you prefer the J approach in general? You will probably be attracted to openings where sharp tactics are called for since the flow of perception is regulated by necessity and clearly delineated tactical visions. Are you more P in nature? Well you may prefer a decidedly slow and strategic game, where your innate desire to gather more and more experience before closing other psychical processes is less punished by decisive play by an opponent. The exception arises for J's like me, who happen to prefer strategic maneuvering, but this is because we actually can GRASP the strategic concepts and have a strong urge to savor their aesthetics, experiencing tactical motifs as their "skin" or "currency" so to speak. I like to get "J" on the issue of which tactical motif is more productive, which line should I close or open, should I trade this knight for that bishop? It is challenging to be "J" here for non-strategic thinkers, just as it is challenging to be "J" for non-tacticians in open positions.

J and P can be rather open ended for some who approach life in ways that have just enough complexity that a blunt assessment device cannot capture the overall texture of your functioning here. I'd say check out your condition when under pressure, especially in areas you are well versed in, but also in areas where you are not. Try to see if your J or P sticks out like an adaptive mechanism at some stage of your learning/adapting period. See how it changes its emphasis when you get better/more comfortable.
 
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