....I'm sorry I have to do this....INTJ or INFJ?

[Aleksei]

Letter-based analysis provides a type hypothesis. Normally one would then look at profiles and see if they fit. Serge, sadly, has already looked at a great many profiles and has decided that he can't choose.

That's because he doesn't fit any one properly, which confuses him. He is Ni Fi Te Se, which supposedly doesn't exist.

 

[Craft]

He is Ne Fi Te Se

Dude, where did this come from? Ne? Are you joking?

 

[Aleksei]

Dude, where did this come from? Ne? Are you joking?

Mistype. Fixed.

 

[Kalach]

I am disappointed. First you proclaim your type conclusion with insufficient presentation of data then you move on to monetary issues. Tsk tsk tsk.

No, seriously. Argue with reason and evidence, not repetitive presentations of unsupported judgments stated as fact. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. Reread the thread. There is enough information.

What am I, some kind of Ti user?

In a type investigation initiated by the person who wants to be typed, what's the point of being convincing if the person won't convince themselves?


Liberation from solipsism now!

 

[Aleksei]

I think he was talking to me.

 

[Kalach]

Oh.


Upside: maybe you are ENFP.

 

[Aleksei]

There's no maybe about it. Still, the fact he's INTJ isn't unsupported -- it just seems unsupported to Craft. Serge knows why I think he's INTJ, and that's enough for me, no need to expound on it. Like you, I'm not a Ti user.

By the way, I do believe you're ENTJ. You seem not to understand Fi very well, which would point to your own being very weak. Many NFPs don't understand Fi either, but that's because they have an overly optimistic vision of it -- you seem to have the opposite problem. You think Fi is something resembling Te Se interplay, and see actual human connections -- even to people very close to oneself, like family, as part of Fe. INTJs aren't quite that robotic.

Oh, and then there's the fact you don't fucking shut up.

 

[Serge]

F is usually very aware of other people’s feelings.

For the most part, I understand how people are feeling and how my words may affect them. There are a few times where I blatantly disregard that or perhaps even use it to make sure I get what I want (It's usually the truth, but I've used it for 'wrong' before) What a person is feeling usually doesn't affect me in any way though, I just tend to note it.I'm the only one out of my bffs various friends who actually tends to know what's wrong with my friends, I tend to know if they are just sleepy, just tired, or actually have a legitimate problem. F values harmony; feels unsettled by arguments and conflicts.

I was kinda conflicted on this one. The reason I picked this option is because I based this on a episode where my parents were fighting somewhat violently. Probably not the best choice, most people might be distraught by that. Other than that, I can't recall when I was seriously bothered by the lack of harmony...There have been quite a few times where people around me were severely pissed at one particular person and I was nearly completely indifferent about it, I even fought for that person against the waves of my friends. I've also caused my share of disturbances as well...I was less mature but basically I pitched a fit.

P deals easily with unplanned and unexpected happenings.

For my day to day dealings, I typically have a loose plan in which many things can change. I'll have a set group of things I need to do and if anything changes, I can almost immediately come up with a decent plan on the spot and then use that instead of my previous plan. I have plans, I just can easily change them on the spot if needed. With that being said, there are occasions where I HATE changing the plan. I hate being late for example. . It reflects badly on me.

 

[SillySapienne]

Just subscribed to this thread, will catch up on it during the weekend.



INXJ seems like a very interesting potential hybrid-type.

 

[Kalach]

F is usually very aware of other people’s feelings.

For the most part, I understand how people are feeling and how my words may affect them. There are a few times where I blatantly disregard that or perhaps even use it to make sure I get what I want (It's usually the truth, but I've used it for 'wrong' before) What a person is feeling usually doesn't affect me in any way though, I just tend to note it.I'm the only one out of my bffs various friends who actually tends to know what's wrong with my friends, I tend to know if they are just sleepy, just tired, or actually have a legitimate problem.

Would you say you're aware of a person's feelings because you pay attention to such things or do you usually pay attention to other parts of the world and knowledge of feeling arrives as a sort of addendum to these other concerns? What are these other concerns?

P deals easily with unplanned and unexpected happenings.

For my day to day dealings, I typically have a loose plan in which many things can change. I'll have a set group of things I need to do and if anything changes, I can almost immediately come up with a decent plan on the spot and then use that instead of my previous plan. I have plans, I just can easily change them on the spot if needed. With that being said, there are occasions where I HATE changing the plan. I hate being late for example. . It reflects badly on me.

Do you have a broader plan? Perhaps it's not as clearly defined as a day-to-day plan, but it includes an image of the way things should be. And does this sometimes influence choices you make in front of others?



(Those two questions relate to determination of an auxiliary function. And you're just out of high-school, right? The auxiliary is probably still tough to work out yet.)

 

[Serge]

Would you say you're aware of a person's feelings because you pay attention to such things or do you usually pay attention to other parts of the world and knowledge of feeling arrives as a sort of addendum to these other concerns? What are these other concerns?

Tough question. I don't think I intentionally pay attention to what people are feeling, I think the only time I really pay attention to it is when I think something is off and the person in question is acting in a manner that's unexpected. I didn't use to, it's something I've learned through reading and being with people myself. I usually pay attention to my thoughts and ideas more than I pay attention to people's feelings, I assume most people can take care of theirs. I tend to pay attention to the environment around me, how close someone is to me, my object of interest (usually what I'm reading) and then other people. Even when someone is obviously sad, I don't tend to try to cheer them up unless they're my friend.

Do you have a broader plan? Perhaps it's not as clearly defined as a day-to-day plan, but it includes an image of the way things should be. And does this sometimes influence choices you make in front of others?

Yes. I have most of my life planned out until after grad school (With many contingency plans because I'll probably grow and change as a person quite a few times in college.) and yes it does influence my choices, I know what I need to be and I realize that some current actions might be counter productive towards that. Drugs and alcohol, for example, would not be a good thing for me to start when I had a dream of being a psychologist. Also, when I wanted to be a physicist, I became really interested in doing well in math. (I despise math, really. I <3 physics. Hate math. Fml)

(Those two questions relate to determination of an auxiliary function. And you're just out of high-school, right? The auxiliary is probably still tough to work out yet.)

Yes, just turned 18 even...two months ago!

 

[Kalach]

We should get some INFJs in here to say something about what it's like being young. Do they get overwhelmed by other people's feelings or is it a gradual growing awareness? (I have no idea.)

Also, on the idea of a broader plan, do you find sometimes that you need to correct other people, that there's a broader scheme of things that they're forgetting or would be helped by learning? And it's not really about them or you or opinion, it's "right". (This is the one you didn't choose last time, and it would indicate "J", particularly if "right" is NOT about looking right, but about holding to some external standard that you're aware of and count as important. Is there a "right order" in the cosmos that you're aware off and want to stick to, even if it means not letting other people have their own opinion?)

 

[Serge]

We should get some INFJs in here to say something about what it's like being young. Do they get overwhelmed by other people's feelings or is it a gradual growing awareness? (I have no idea.)

That'd be interesting, I know a bit about teenaged INFJs based on the INFJ forum but not a lot.

Also, on the idea of a broader plan, do you find sometimes that you need to correct other people, that there's a broader scheme of things that they're forgetting or would be helped by learning? And it's not really about them or you or opinion, it's "right". (This is the one you didn't choose last time, and it would indicate "J", particularly if "right" is NOT about looking right, but about holding to some external standard that you're aware of and count as important. Is there a "right order" in the cosmos that you're aware off and want to stick to, even if it means not letting other people have their own opinion?)

Actually, now that you bring this up, I do recall doing such a thing. I told my bff that it'd probably be better for her to not be a pre-med major focusing on biology for various reasons, all of which she turned down, and I did somewhat take that as a slight against me at the time. It felt as if she didn't value my opinion. I got mad and told her any potential fuck ups down the line were her fault college wise (I was being a dick but I'm trying to be honest. Immaturity ftw) Now...about being right...I don't believe in a completely objective ability to make a decision but I do believe that there is a "right" and "wrong" decision based on the information known at the time. The right answer usually involves choosing the option that is the best for you emotionally, financially, and logically. Which includes a lot of things but I believe there is a 'right' answer and I believe not picking anything is a (bad) choice in itself.

 

[highlander]

I've been thinking about it and my suggestion is to not pay so much attention to the type descriptions. I see a number of "cliche" references for INTJ or for a particular type. You are young enough that I would hate to see this stuff influence your self perception in a way that hinders vs. helps. There is only one you. This is part of the danger of "folk typology" that Solitary Walker describes. I agree with much but not all that he says. In this case, I think he has a point.

 

[Kalach]

Uncle Highlander makes a good point. While it's true (probably) that there are only 16 types, and while type is really useful for consciously directing a better you, still type is discovered by inspecting the person, not the other way around. Assuming as we all must that functions are real, even if one knows one's type, one still should be attending to what works and what doesn't for you. In that way you make type profiles real rather than them making you real.



(Or, to put it another way, I don't know what your type is either.)

 

[Heart&Brain]

We should get some INFJs in here to say something about what it's like being young. Do they get overwhelmed by other people's feelings or is it a gradual growing awareness? (I have no idea.)

I may have an idea, but it's only based on how a close INFJ, now 43 y.o., has described his youth to me. Feelings and social awareness were suddenly overwhelming him by puberty and he didn't like it. He felt, and still does to a degree, "filterless" with respect to instinctively feeling everything that's going on between people when entering a room. He can't block feeling it even if he doesn't care about the people. He just senses or feels or knows everybody's interests, conflicts and emotional games and whether they are relaxed or alert or feel threatened or harbours resentments or would try to bond or put on masks etc. etc. He doesn't actually care about most people, only a select few, (much like the INTJ I suppose) so he often feels like he is getting much too much information for his comfort. Exhaustion from feeling what's going on inside and between others is part of the reason why he needs his alone time when he has been socialising. And why he is very discriminate with whom he wants to socialise with if he can choose. Problematic or 'bad vibe'-people wears him out very quickly. He can get aggressive and resentful on people for simple being present if they feel dominant, needy, manipulative, clueless or arrogant. Even if they are distant or think they keep low profile their very presence amounts to stuffing their bad vibes down his throat. :steam:


A clue to functional order could be how introversion / extroversion might shift as you grow up, thus as the different functions, dom-I, aux-E, tert-I, begin to get integrated and practised. This INFJ was a quiet, sceptical, thoughtful child, but very popular (more than he actually wanted to be). He wanted to be alone for hours after school before going out to play, for instance, which nobody understood. Not that he cared that nobody understood. Ni-introverted, strongminded child. J-stubborn. (says the P... )

At puberty it looks like Fe kicked in, girls suddenly existed shock and he was hardly ever home, but always roaming around with a huge group of distant 'friends', drinking to numb himself from the overwhelming blast of feeling-information, not caring shit about anything which made him a bit of an unwiling 'leader', rapid succession of random GF's whose name he hardly remembered, absolutely minimal contact with his family. Fe-extroverted teenager surfing the crowd rather mindlessly to get a filter on the overwhelming new sensibility.

By 18-19 he cut all ties with his previous bad ass group, became obsessed with odd philosophy and French modernist literature and decided to study philosophy at uni which was completely not done in his environment or family. Looks like some Ti waking up and adding a new aspect to his mix.

Pretty marked shifts it seems. I imagine the puberty-extraversion of an INTJ would look different (aux Te goals in school, getting results) as would the teen-years of the INFP (aux Ne-airy and varied interests in all kinds of stuff, intuiting connections in a bigger world to be discovered).

So, Serge, which is it?

 

[Serge]

I may have an idea, but it's only based on how a close INFJ, now 43 y.o., has described his youth to me. Feelings and social awareness were suddenly overwhelming him by puberty and he didn't like it. He felt, and still does to a degree, "filterless" with respect to instinctively feeling everything that's going on between people when entering a room. He can't block feeling it even if he doesn't care about the people. He just senses or feels or knows everybody's interests, conflicts and emotional games and whether they are relaxed or alert or feel threatened or harbours resentments or would try to bond or put on masks etc. etc. He doesn't actually care about most people, only a select few, (much like the INTJ I suppose) so he often feels like he is getting much too much information for his comfort. Exhaustion from feeling what's going on inside and between others is part of the reason why he needs his alone time when he has been socialising. And why he is very discriminate with whom he wants to socialise with if he can choose. Problematic or 'bad vibe'-people wears him out very quickly. He can get aggressive and resentful on people for simple being present if they feel dominant, needy, manipulative, clueless or arrogant. Even if they are distant or think they keep low profile their very presence amounts to stuffing their bad vibes down his throat. :steam:

Can't say that I'm similar to that myself. When I walk into a room, I don't notice the atmosphere unless it's particularly thick. I also tend to focus mainly on my friends or interests, I don't put as much effort into understanding the feelings of everyone else. And even if I do understand, I tend not to act on them. Bad vibe people don't wear me out, they just tend to annoy me and that's not a good place for me to be in if I want to be social. I tend to avoid them as well, and if I have to hang with them, I largely ignore or I make them look like an ass. For example, my friend, love him to death, loves to be the leader. He likes to place orders and just generally try to show how much of a 'man' he is to me, one day, we were in blockbuster with another friend of mine and he kept agitating me. I wanted to get a movie that we would all like but he kept telling me what I should get, what's good, what's bad. That's fine, I was used to that, but we started to walk up to the counter and he was standing in front of me like he was the pack leader, I had a feeling he did it on purpose and I completely stopped, handed him the movie, and I told him that since he wanted to act like he's the leader of this group, he can be. He can also pay for the damn movie himself. (The more I reveal, the more and more immature i feel lol)

A clue to functional order could be how introversion / extroversion might shift as you grow up, thus as the different functions, dom-I, aux-E, tert-I, begin to get integrated and practised. This INFJ was a quiet, sceptical, thoughtful child, but very popular (more than he actually wanted to be). He wanted to be alone for hours after school before going out to play, for instance, which nobody understood. Not that he cared that nobody understood. Ni-introverted, strongminded child. J-stubborn. (says the P... )

At puberty it looks like Fe kicked in, girls suddenly existed shock and he was hardly ever home, but always roaming around with a huge group of distant 'friends', drinking to numb himself from the overwhelming blast of feeling-information, not caring shit about anything which made him a bit of an unwiling 'leader', rapid succession of random GF's whose name he hardly remembered, absolutely minimal contact with his family. Fe-extroverted teenager surfing the crowd rather mindlessly to get a filter on the overwhelming new sensibility.

Puberty for me....I don't know, it was a wild time. I spent a majority of my time alone (To the shock of my parents, I was quite an extroverted child. Overtly confident. Liked being the center of attention) and I spent a majority of my time scorning people and making plans for what I wanted to do (Most of these plans not ever succeeding though..) I also started playing video games a lot, I think it was a means of making me feel somewhat accomplished in at least something, and I also started roleplaying, I wanted to be someone else. I didn't really pay attention to people until I was 16, I learned that their were benefits to being social and not being a dick.

By 18-19 he cut all ties with his previous bad ass group, became obsessed with odd philosophy and French modernist literature and decided to study philosophy at uni which was completely not done in his environment or family. Looks like some Ti waking up and adding a new aspect to his mix.

Pretty marked shifts it seems. I imagine the puberty-extraversion of an INTJ would look different (aux Te goals in school, getting results) as would the teen-years of the INFP (aux Ne-airy and varied interests in all kinds of stuff, intuiting connections in a bigger world to be discovered).

So, Serge, which is it?

Seeing as I'm just turning 18, I can't really comments on tertiary functions but for the most part, I'm trying to find my 'passion.' I don't know why but there feels like there is nothing in my life that I LOVE so much that I can do it day in, and day out. At least, I can't find it. That's what I'm searching for, I know there's something.

I guess I had Te goals in school. Didn't really put effort into my plans though. I did make high marks, its just that I couldn't do it consistently (more to mood problems than anything else)

Question: People with high Fi wouldn't have a problem finding their passion, right? I mean, for the most part, I just feel...kinda apathetic.

Also, I'm a part of the INTJ forum and I go to the chat somewhat often, I'm starting to notice that I don't really like paying attention to really theoretical conversations. I like Quantum Mechanics a little more than the next guy but I don't really like discussing all that much. I notice this also applies to really abstract philosophy (Are we really perceiving reality? My response: Does it really fucking matter if you're a part of my imagination or not? I still have a game to play) I tend to like subjects that revolve around people in some way (Politics, for example, biology, P-chem.)

 

[Kalach]

Maybe what's screwing with proper type hypothesising here is E vs I. All this social stuff you speak of, Serge, really doesn't sound INTJ. But it could easily be E-something. E-anything, really. And the fact you're sure of I would then be glossed by reference to the standard type development model, which says in the beginning we're all dominant but this changes in the teens when we all swing heavily into auxiliary mode. It's like a growth spurt and the auxiliary gets over-emphasised in consciousness (presumably just because if it weren't OVER-emphasized, it wouldn't have the conscious presence to grow in and eventually fit a proper role alongside the dominant). Maybe Little Sticks picked it right.

 

[Anamalech]

Serge is an INFJ. Very developed Ti and unsure of his Fe. Its in his fucking voice. Natural warm Fe voice.

YouTube - Michael Ignatieff's Early Liberal Memories - This guy is an INFJ with excellent Ti usage. Youd mistake him for an INTJ.

YouTube - Stephen Harper Income Trust Promise - This guy is INTJ. Excellent articulation.

Conclusion: Serge is an INFJ unsure of his Fe and with heavy Ti development.

 

[Lethe]

I've been thinking about it and my suggestion is to not pay so much attention to the type descriptions. I see a number of "cliche" references for INTJ or for a particular type.

Seconded. Rather than focus on what qualifies as an "INTJ" or "INFJ" hobby, determine the process and reasoning in which you use to achieve your objective.

Eric B's description on the functions might be of use to you:

Se: The environment must contain new experiences
Si: Life must be familiar to me
Ne: The environment must contain alternatives, new possibilities
Ni: Life must have an underlying significance to me
Te: The environment must be logically organized
Ti: Life must make sense to me
Fe: The environment must be socially friendly
Fi: Life must be personally congruent to me

OrangeAppled's Fi-Fe distinction is great as well:

I think Fe is more interpersonal & Fi is intrapersonal. Fe seeks external harmony to lead to internal harmony, and Fi seeks internal harmony to lead to external harmony. You could say that one works it way inwards & the other outwards.

---

I think it's fair to say that Fe reasons on what is important as well, but turns outward to gauge things, or to assign value. Fe people seem more likely to seek consensus and to label good or bad based on the results.

Fi is this abstract inner knowing that serves as a basis for reasoning on what matters to that individual, which is why it's so hard to describe.