Am I ENFP or ENTP

[Elemental Chaos]

The ends justify the means
Firstly, (in my opinion) the ends always justify the means. Additionaly, what you want to achieve with an action is always more admirable than the actual results of the action. (The results of your actions can of course be attributed to you in some way as well, but that is praise for you being great, not for you acting in a moral way.)

Still, since you can never know the exact consequenses of your actions, the "right" thing to do is usually what will result in a good effect on the spot. In general, I think people who can't act to further what they figure to be "right" according to their values are either to much ruled by their emotions, or lack knowledge and understanding about the results of their actions.
>>>I am guilty of both (I think everyone is in some way).


Values
If you have some kind of values and abide by them, I will respect you for it. It doesn't really matter if I agree with them. However, if you can't act to further them, I will consider you an idiot.

My own value system goes all by general happyness. What benefits everyone is the right thing to strive for. Of course, I have my own beliefs of what would accomplish this.

If we reach consensus on how to act, but not why, I might still consider you amoral or stupid for deciding on the action in an amoral/stupid way (I usually try to point out effects for people who seem concerned but err in logic. When people don't care, it annoys, puzzles or scares me).


Note
These are just my beliefs, and I think they are the most NTP thing about me. In action I'm very emotional and respect integrity to the point where I don't wish to change other people's views because that would be intruding on them. I still tend to convince people about theories and other things half by mistake only to realize that differently from me, they don't like to keep a couple of different hypothesises and models in their head at the same time. They take the stuff to their heart and actually go and do stuff with it right away.

 

[Asterion]

ENTP, you don't seem to have any ENFPness. Your interest in the brain could be a dead giveaway, not to say that ENFPs aren't interested in the brain, it's just that I couldn't see one putting that in their sig.

Gotta love little clues

 

[Lady_X]

The means justify the ends
Firstly, (in my opinion) the means always justify the ends. Consequently, what you want to achieve with an action is always more admirable than the actual results of the action. (The results of your actions can of course be attributed to you in some way as well, but that is praise for you being great, not for you acting in a moral way.)

Still, since you can never know the exact consequenses of your actions, the "right" thing to do is usually what will result in a good effect on the spot. In general, I think people who can't act to further what they figure to be "right" according to their values are either to much ruled by their emotions, or lack knowledge and understanding about the results of their actions.
>>>I am guilty of both (I think everyone is in some way).


Values
If you have some kind of values and abide by them, I will respect you for it. It doesn't really matter if I agree with them. However, if you can't act to further them, I will consider you an idiot.

My own value system goes all by general happyness. What benefits everyone is the right thing to strive for. Of course, I have my own beliefs of what would accomplish this.

If we reach consensus on how to act, but not why, I might still consider you amoral or stupid for deciding on the action in an amoral/stupid way (I usually try to point out effects for people who seem concerned but err in logic. When people don't care, it annoys, puzzles or scares me).


Note
These are just my beliefs, and I think they are the most NTP thing about me. In action I'm very emotional and respect integrity to the point where I don't wish to change other people's views because that would be intruding on them. I still tend to convince people about theories and other things half by mistake only to realize that differently from me, they don't like to keep a couple of different hypothesises and models in their head at the same time. They take the stuff to their heart and actually go and do stuff with it right away.

yeah...i say entp also...the bolded especially does not feel very enfp to me.

 

[Moiety]

I don't see anything particularly any more Ti than Fi.

Being close to ENTP myself, I can tell you it's not at all clear cut. If I wasn't such a values fanatic (meaning that I stress values even more than other ENFPs)...apart from that I could very well be an ENTP.

Bolded sounds very ENFP to me actually.

 

[Lady_X]

how so? it doesn't matter how something is achieved? i'd rather someone fail than lie and manipulate or go against something important to them to get something.

that's how i interpreted it.

 

[Elemental Chaos]

I meant it this way: You want to save someone's life? To me that is something that overrules alot of other things morally and thus allows you to do alot of things that you normaly wouldn't do. Another thing is that I might not be able to do it, or I might hate myself for doing it. If the goal was worth it (save two persons but killing one, for example). I would see it as something that should be done, but not something that I wanted to do or perhaps would even be able to do.

 

[Elemental Chaos]

I think it's a thing of actions versus thought's for me.

 

[Asterion]

I meant it this way: You want to save someone's life? To me that is something that overrules alot of other things morally and thus allows you to do alot of things that you normaly wouldn't do. Another thing is that I might not be able to do it, or I might hate myself for doing it. If the goal was worth it (save two persons but killing one, for example). I would see it as something that should be done, but not something that I wanted to do or perhaps would even be able to do.

Bravo! , and that's Thinking for you

 

[Moiety]

how so? it doesn't matter how something is achieved? i'd rather someone fail than lie and manipulate or go against something important to them to get something.

that's how i interpreted it.

Well exactly. If you rather someone fail than use means like lie and manipulate than "the means justify the ends" and not "the end justify the means".

 

[Lady_X]

sure that i understand...it's not at all black and white. everything would have to be weighed and prioritized.

 

[Lady_X]

Well exactly. If you rather someone fail than use means like lie and manipulate than "the means justify the ends" and not "the end justify the means".

sure that is what he wrote but it did not sound like what he meant because he then went on to say it was less important to be moral if the end result justified it.

unless i misread it.

 

[Moiety]

sure that is what he wrote but it did not sound like what he meant because he then went on to say it was less important to be moral if the end result justified it.

unless i misread it.

You did. He says intent is always more important. He was saying praise that people don't get praise for being moral but for getting results.

 

[Elemental Chaos]

Oops, I see know that I wrote "The means justify the ends" - hilarious.

Well, that's more how I act. But not how I think. So it's kind of correct but shouldn't have been written just there.

 

[Elemental Chaos]

Ehrm, the thread is growing faster than I update, sorry. Anyway, the Ends justify the means. I just might not be able to do it.

 

[Moiety]

Well, I'm a "the means justify the ends" myself so it wouldn't be that weird.

 

[Lady_X]

sounds fe to me...or rather that you think it ought to be that way but struggle with it...yeah?

 

[Elemental Chaos]

Now that I reread it, it almost seems more logical with "the means justify the ends" considering the rest of the first paragraph. I meant that you look to the results, factor in all your knowledge, and do what gives the best result in the end. If that means you have to lie, you have to lie.

What I was also saying in the same piece was that you're not accountable for things you don't know about. This part supported "the means justify the ends" as it is now written.

Even later I tried to clear up that if you start playing god and think you know all the consequenses of your actions you will likely go wrong because you don't know enough. So the obviously moral alternative (if there is one) might be the best "ends" in the end.

 

[Elemental Chaos]

Just to add: This means that I pay very little heed to rules and give almost all credit to good intentions.

 

[Lady_X]

yeah well now i'm properly confused

 

[Elemental Chaos]

I tend to have that effect on people. I'll just change the first part of the first paragraph so it says what it should say. The rest is just a tangled mess I guess...