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  1. #231
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    I think that Victor understands this but that he's so intent on making a point that he can only see my words as a springboard. That's perfectly fine. I'm just curious to learn what exactly Victor is objecting to and what it is he wants to see us do as an alternative. I'm sure it's very clear to him, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to the rest of us.
    Yeah, sorry, I went back and edited to add a bit more....

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    ....I have a feeling he gets it, but wants to stick with his own interpretation of the word to serve the aim of his most recent rhetoric. meh.
    So, we're in agreement. He gets it.

    His aim is the play of rhetoric, to "persuade" us to leave behind mundane thoughts, and binding, cold, clinical logic and as he says, 'play in abstraction'...to persuade us to have some kind of (emotional?) reaction to his words rather than just a literal response. Which he finds.....boring. Not imaginative, fun, I'm sure.

    Yet, I don't think he fully knows what it is he's persuading us towards. What his global aim is, beyond persuasion, beyond another way of looking. He's got the process down, but not what the process is finally hoping to achieve. In that, I think he's as aimless as his words sometimes leaves his audience.

    I think this is why he gets upset when someone doesn't 'get' him and criticizes, because (1) they're not engaging in the play with him, (2) without a final aim, he, himself, doesn't know how to defend against the criticism as all he's left holding is the process of rhetoric, without much fleshed out global idea of what exactly he's trying to achieve. (beyond giving us another way of looking, hence, when the content gets criticized [not the process], he takes it that much more personally)


    He could take his process getting criticized like a champ, I'll predict, because he'll see it as a "compliment".... 'they don't get me because I'm beyond their scope of understanding. So unique, so radical.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    There is nothing to clear up.

    I full understand that the words, 'objectify' and 'objectionable', are pejorative.

    And indeed they are a play on words.

    So I wonder, is English your first language?
    It's my 89th language, and look how good I'm at it, regardless.

    PS - Victor, you bully, you were trying to insult me!

  2. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    how do you propose we do this?
    Good question.

    So we look back on our trajectory from slave to commodity and we imagine how we might follow this trajectory from commodity to person.

  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    PS - Victor, you bully, you were trying to insult me!
    Q, it's true and I am sorry. And look, to show I am sorry I have removed the insult entirely from my post.

  4. #234
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Q, it's true and I am sorry. And look, to show I am sorry I have removed the insult entirely from my post.
    Thank you. I don't hold a grudge.

  5. #235
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Good question.

    So we look back on our trajectory from slave to commodity and we imagine how we might follow this trajectory from commodity to person.
    In light of this, I suspect that what you mean by "objectification" is not objectification per se, but rather the act of claiming ownership over another person. A slave is someone who is considered nothing more than another's property. A commodity has a little more freedom than a slave, in the sense that it may travel between owners. Then you have a prostitute, which is someone whose freedom is fully recognized, only for him to sell it to another person (see the job market). To these, all of which exist in various forms within every society, you offer the "person" as an alternative. What is a person, and what would a society of persons look like? Wouldn't it amount to pure chaos, with no one able to compel anyone else to do anything and no person willing to work in exchange for goods?
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  6. #236
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    Thumbs down Personal Therapy and the Helping Form of Child Rearing

    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    In light of this, I suspect that what you mean by "objectification" is not objectification per se, but rather the act of claiming ownership over another person. A slave is someone who is considered nothing more than another's property. A commodity has a little more freedom than a slave, in the sense that it may travel between owners. Then you have a prostitute, which is someone whose freedom is fully recognized, only for him to sell it to another person (see the job market). To these, all of which exist in various forms within every society, you offer the "person" as an alternative. What is a person, and what would a society of persons look like? Wouldn't it amount to pure chaos, with no one able to compel anyone else to do anything and no person willing to work in exchange for goods?
    Again with the good questions.

    Yes, the problem is how to move from commodity to person.

    So on a practical level, you might ask, how can I become a person?

    And fortunately, in rich advanced societies, we have two options.

    You may have noticed that prosperous societies have now turned into therapeutic societies, and that is, psychologically therapeutic societies. And indeed this site is a perfect example of a part of the therapeutic society.

    So the first option is personal therapy.

    And the second option is child rearing practice.

    For as we move from slavery to commodity to person, we move from the sacrificial form of child rearing, to the abusive form of child rearing, to the authoritarian form of child rearing, to the helping form of child rearing.

    Each form of child rearing is an improvement on the one before. And each particular form of child rearing creates its own form of personality.

    So if you wish to move from a commodity to a person in a prosperous, advanced society, you have the option of taking part in therapy.

    And for your children, you have the option of raising them in the helping mode.

  7. #237
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    If you are trying to avoid being objectified you should probably not use a name to identify yourself.

  8. #238
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    If you are trying to avoid being objectified you should probably not use a name to identify yourself.
    lol fair
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #239
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Victor, those burning red thumbs very endearing.

    Again with the good questions.

    Yes, the problem is how to move from commodity to person.

    So on a practical level, you might ask, how can I become a person?

    And fortunately, in rich advanced societies, we have two options.

    You may have noticed that prosperous societies have now turned into therapeutic societies, and that is, psychologically therapeutic societies. And indeed this site is a perfect example of a part of the therapeutic society.

    So the first option is personal therapy.

    And the second option is child rearing practice.

    For as we move from slavery to commodity to person, we move from the sacrificial form of child rearing, to the abusive form of child rearing, to the authoritarian form of child rearing, to the helping form of child rearing.

    Each form of child rearing is an improvement on the one before. And each particular form of child rearing creates its own form of personality.

    So if you wish to move from a commodity to a person in a prosperous, advanced society, you have the option of taking part in therapy.

    And for your children, you have the option of raising them in the helping mode.
    In what way does therapy free a person from ownership by others? If you force a criminal to undergo psychoanalysis, for instance, you've given him an option that he'll prefer to imprisonment, but you've also pressured him to give up his autonomy in favor of yours. You could let criminals decide for themselves whether they would like to turn up for therapy, of course, but then you're left with a society that may have a law in words but which certainly doesn't have one in practice. In such a society, all sorts of struggles would break out among the populous--there would be nothing to stop it from happening--and in response to these struggles, the various factions would seek ways to bend their enemies to their will, and then we'd end up at slaves, commodities, and prostitutes, all over again.

    Perhaps your answer lies in child rearing in the helping mode, but in this case you're treating human beings like mathematical formulas; you're assuming that each person will have a predictable response to a set of life experiences, which, ironically, requires you to objectify people and deny their autonomy. Either everyone stands at a distance from their past, in which case we can only guess how they'll act in the future, or each person is just a piece of clockwork waiting to click into its fated place. In that case, freedom vanishes altogether and it becomes very easy--unavoidable, really--for one person to take ownership over another simply by pressing the buttons.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  10. #240
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    A few additional thoughts to typing Victor:

    With regards to his game of rhetorics, to follow up with my previous post
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...2-post231.html

    This is why I believe him to be FiNe......I've never seen a discourse between him and someone come to a conclusion (unless they're supporting his viewpoint), ever. Because he doesn't have a point he's holding stead-fast to, some vanishing point he's moving towards, something he's trying to really prove. It's all just a play of rhetoric, pick a single thought from someone's response to him, and go off on another thought tangent with it. And, repeat.
    All to spur an emotional reaction, his, and hopefully (his aim), the other.
    Bouncing from thought to thought (Ne), no investment in a conclusive thought (or building on it, going to the depths of that singular thought - like Ni) as much as the presentation of the thought. Until the next thought, and so on. Hence, no build-up, no discourse leading to a conclusion. Just the art of rhetoric. He doesn't want an audience as much as he wants fans.
    INFP.

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