INTP or ISTP? Confused & Intrigued

[sLiPpY]

It'll be interesting to see which type you think seems a closer fit. Seems like a lot of ISTPs initially identify as INTPs.

I could have pretty much written your OP verbatim.

What narrowed it down for me was the proposed exercise, which I like in thinking it follows the Keep IT Simple Stupid principle.

The other element was noticing my impatience with NT free flow when considering possibilities vs. focusing on a more immediate and practicle solution.

Plus an observation that it's a lot easier for me to pick-up and eventually master skills in the physical world vs. ?

i.e. First time I ever got on a dirt bike. I had no trouble making my first round of the track, taking it through the woods faster than my more experienced companion and jumping it like someone with more experience.

A couple of funny things happened, when a couple of NT's tried... They either couldn't get the bike going, or it flew right out from under them. I won't say that'd universally be the case, but it's a differing kind of focus of natural attention.

 

[_Violence_]

Let's try this one...

Maybe a bad object since I'm actually very familiar with the Yin Yang from a cultural/historical and philosophical perspective, so my descriptions might be biased. But I'll give it a shot.

Yin and Yang represent the true nature of the world, and through understanding of the world, realize the true nature of Dao.

Yin - Earth, feminine, subservience, darkness, passiveness, obscure, yielding, cold.

Yang - Heaven, masculine, dominance, light, aggression, solidity, forcefulness, hot.

However these are two transient aspects at best and the world is actually never truly of a dualistic nature. Life, the universe, and nature is always moving, shifting, transient. Nothing is ever full yin, or full yang, and every object, thought, and organism is made of an ever-shifting mixture of the two.

For examples, females may exhibit more yang energies, while males would exhibit yin energies.

If I were to liken this to an MBTI sort of analogy, I would identify introverts as having more Yin Qi, and extraverts as having more Yang Qi. However, every single function may also operates this way, Ne/Ni being Yang/Yin. Yet again, humans are dynamic creatures. All functions are used at one point or another, and all functions will possess Yin and Yang energies.

The lesson we must learn, or the understand we should strive to achieve is that Ying and Yang are NOT opposites, but merely states of temporary transience. What I mean by this is that Yin and Yang actually BECOME and REPLACE each other in a never-ending flow of change. Such is the universe; change, but always remaining still. Being still, yet changing without limit, or constraint. The white circle within the black half, represents the Yang seed present in everything that Yin represents. The black circle within the white half, represents the Yin seed present in everything that Yang represents.

It is important to strive for a state of Wu Wei (inaction), and Wu Xin (empty mind/heart). Inaction pertains to Yin Qi (energy), yet if inaction/silence leads the way to action and result, "Inaction" may also be considered a form of control, action, or control, one may consider it to be "Yang" or even "secretly Yang" in its true Daoist state.

I hope this isn't confusing, but Taoist, and Chinese philosophy in general is typically full of paradoxes and highly abstract concepts that I would say is impossible to rationalize using a Western/logical/reductionist model of reasoning.

This is one of the only "objects" I cannot explain fully logically because to understand Taoist philosophy requires one to throw away so much logic to even begin.

Night begets day, and day begets night. Darkness shines from light, and light shades the darkness. The circle is representative of the WHOLE, not partiality, duality, or even two "sides" of the same coin.

 

[incubustribute]

I read these posts, and I see ISTP fo sho. You're very on-topic and focused and give concise answers, never straying or following trains of thought. You find this stuff interesting most likely because your Ni has developed enough to tell you to try to get a deeper understanding of the world around you, but this is always filtered through Se's observable characteristics.

 

[sLiPpY]

Glad incubustribe posted ahead of my seeing Violence post on the object in question, and agree I also see ISTP fo sho.

For the reasons that you'd stated, as well as his inclusion of describing the physical object vs. making an intuitive leap to something else unrelated it reminded him of.

The most common object chosen for such an exercise is a styrofoam cup. An ISTP will describe it's color, shape and dimensions where an INTP might speak of how bad they are for the environment or something else outside of the physical context of the object it reminds them of.

Oh, and by the way Violence really enjoyed reading your perceptions on the topic. Gave me some ideas as to thoughts/concepts I would probably enjoy reading and/or exploring further.

Many of the "learned" descriptions of being an ISTP are kind of "insulting." We're much more than mechanics, doesn't matter if it's a computer...a car or human systems. Much more broad than that. Many ISTP's are walking encyclopedias on a broad range of subjects, outside of more formalized learning.

My favorite example of such a character is that of Nick Nolte in a DVD called "Peaceful Warrior." He plays the part of an older mechanic that befriends a college gymnast who's olympic asperations are interupted by virtue of breaking his leg. Nolte's character the "common mechanic" is in reality very well read on topics of philosophy, and also coaches the young man back to health.

Surprising elements to be found in a garage, and a more well rounded presentation of what I perceive an ISTP's inherent potential to be.

prolly got a lot of sloppy typing/spelling on my part but

 

[sLiPpY]

Almost forgot to mention, the choice of the object resulted in my wondering how a description might change when there are larger cultural context associated with the object.

To my delight the "S" lens seems to speak just as clearly, vs. when there aren't as many opportunities to stray into "N" using a more simple and common example such as a cup.

Although I feel the exercise held as a valid and simple possibility for others to use in helping them determine S or N for themselves... I think the knowing and deciding for oneself part is key.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

What a great thread. I enjoyed reading your posts, Violence. Welcome.

 

[BlueScreen]

I read these posts, and I see ISTP fo sho. You're very on-topic and focused and give concise answers, never straying or following trains of thought. You find this stuff interesting most likely because your Ni has developed enough to tell you to try to get a deeper understanding of the world around you, but this is always filtered through Se's observable characteristics.

I third ISTP from the description. I'm not sure they need Ni to seek a deeper understanding though; everyone questions what things are and mean.

Agree on the rest. The main difference I notice is N makes INTPs more theoretical and go wandering off on tangents. ISTPs usually stay more focussed on the topic and can often describe it clearly down to the last detail. I agree with Slippy also. The mechanic tag gets taken wrongly, and people assume ISTPs just fix cars or something. Mechanic can be in anything from science, writing, sport, history, fine arts... ISTPs can become highly skilled and gurus in most areas. Normally a very all-rounder type.

 

[_Violence_]

Very interesting to hear your opinions.

I've always thought that my understanding of the Yin Yang symbol and I think Daoist philosophy in general would require a more abstract and intangible form of thinking. Definitely not deductive or inductive reasoning or using any system of formal logic.

However most of the "understanding" that I do have is learned form absorbing "information" such as reading another's opinion of the subject, reading articles/essays/theses, books that pertain to the subjects.

I am thinking a bit clearer right now and my thought process seems to be something along the lines of "seek out a massive influx of information regarding a single particular subject, then filtering out through the BS to see the clear picture, and further using the vast amount of information to come to personal conclusions about the subject at hand that may eventually differ from all of the information absorbed."

Or something like that, LOL.

PS - maybe this means something, maybe nothing, but I tend to have a pet peeve for editing my posts until everything is perfect, otherwise I won't be satisfied and will have this nagging feeling that I could possibly convey something different than intended.

 

[VagrantFarce]

I am thinking a bit clearer right now and my thought process seems to be something along the lines of "seek out a massive influx of information regarding a single particular subject, then filtering out through the BS to see the clear picture, and further using the vast amount of information to come to personal conclusions about the subject at hand that may eventually differ from all of the information absorbed."

Or something like that, LOL.

PS - maybe this means something, maybe nothing, but I tend to have a pet peeve for editing my posts until everything is perfect, otherwise I won't be satisfied and will have this nagging feeling that I could possibly convey something different than intended.

All this is just typical ITP behaviour, to be honest. Doesn't point one way or the other.



I'm gonna throw a quote at you from this book (an amazing book in my opinion), hope it helps to clarify something:

The difference between INTPs and ISTPs in this regard is simply one of Intuition versus Sensation. ISTPs are entiely present oriented, tied perceptually to their context. INTPs are motivated by Intuition to recognize systemic possibilities. They're excited by changes a particular environment can make in the way people think or live their lives.

This really could just be a case of: are you more excited by exploring future possibilities, or exploring the present in vivid detail?

 

[_Violence_]

I would HAVE to say the prospect of exploring future possibilities excites me more. Present detail is nice and I would describe myself as "living in the present," but my thoughts often wander off to what I "could," "might," or "should" be doing in the near future (usually doesn't wander past a few months time or a year).

They're excited by changes a particular environment can make in the way people think or live their lives.

This is what I do all day, try to find connections between environmental stimuli and behavior patterns. And thus my profound interest in stuff like sociology and anthropology and all the generic studies of culture and the transmission of information between societies and their impact.

 

[sLiPpY]

Something that cracks me up about the real life ISTP friends I'd made, drink a couple of beers...eventually conversation might go Zen and suddenly we're engaged by talking about Quantum Mechanics, M, the unified and string theory. But not for long, lol

Near as I can tell it doesn't matter if it's mechanical systems, human systems, computer systems, or the universe...if you really want to engage an ISTP's attention talk about some shit they can sit around and try to figure out how it works.

Which is probably why there's often a natural affinity between ISTP's and INTP dudes. Well, excepting for those moments where we can't actually motivate the NT's to get up, move and do something sensory style fun.

 

[_Violence_]

Let me find another object to describe. How about a bowling ball?

Simple question. How about "describe this object."

Answer:

-The bowling ball is x-kilograms heavy.
-It is black
-The surface is shiny.
-It's well polished.... which is why it's shiny.
-There are three holes in which the fingers go in, as a means to grip the ball for throwing.
-It is very heavy and dense. I think this is to keep the ball propelled against the ground surface. Not exactly sure how the physics of it all works out but it's gotta be something like that.
-It's definitely not edible.
-Can be used as a weapon to smash someone's head in.
-Can be used as a tool to break through a door or something like that.
-Can also be used to smash a cash register and steal money... if you were robbing a store I guess.
-Can be used as a tool in a science experiment for dropping heavy objects from really high up...

Something like this. However when I wandered off to "it can be used for ..." I'm not sure if that constitutes as "describing the object." It's more along the lines of me trying to figure out weird ways to use this object for tasks completely unrelated to bowling... so maybe I am screwing up the answer.

 

[sLiPpY]

nah, not screwing up the answers at all. It's purely a subjective exercise.

In quotes below is a description of what happened in a class when a group of people participated in a similar quest:

"In my MBTI class, we had a small Styrofoam cup as the object.

As someone with a Sensing preference, I wrote down as many details about the cup as I possibly could. In the end, my description looked like technical specs for the cup design (4 inches tall, 2 1/2 inches in diameter, holds 6 ounces of liquid, white color, made of Styrofoam, etc).

I wish someone had a camera to capture my expression when the individuals with Intuitive preferences read their descriptions. Some people wrote poems about how the cup feels unfulfilled because it's not being used...how the cup hates coffee because it is too hot, but prefers tea because it's soothing warmth. One person wrote about how Styrofoam cups are ruining the environment.

I was sitting at a table with other people with clear Sensing preferences and we were all baffled. Our descriptions were based on what we could see, not based on our imagination. One person at my table asked if the "Intuitives" had been drinking at lunch!

This is a great, fast, simple exercise you can use with any object laying around the room of the workshop. Many of my customers use paintings as the object in this exercise."

Hopefully, that will help in evaluating and comparing your own description.

 

[mwv6r]

Reading your post I thought you are an INTP, but the fact that so many people are guessing ISTP for you gives me pause. The ISTPs I know are rugged outdoorsy types, really into sports, mechanically gifted and bright but not really into intellectual pursuits, strong silent type, etc, etc. But clearly there must be other ISTP subtypes because I've met some ISTPs on here who come across more like INTPs to me. Or maybe I just don't know the ISTPs in my life well enough to accurately surmise what's going on in their heads. I've read a lot about Myers-Briggs and like to think that I'm pretty good at typing people, but ISTPs are definitely one type that I don't have figured out yet. I used to think of them kind of like introverted ESTPs but based on what I've read on this forum that's clearly not the case.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Here's a 100% full-proof, guaranteed, no-bullshit, swear-on-my-mother-or-strike-me-dead method to tell the difference between an INTP or ISTP (no foolies, I'm serial this time):

fight club or the matrix?

 

[sLiPpY]

Here's a 100% full-proof, guaranteed, no-bullshit, swear-on-my-mother-or-strike-me-dead method to tell the difference between an INTP or ISTP (no foolies, I'm serial this time):

fight club or the matrix?

Fight club dammit!

uh, sorry got carried away.

 

[SillySapienne]

You're an ISTP homie, aka, INTP's better half.

 

[SillySapienne]

Here's a 100% full-proof, guaranteed, no-bullshit, swear-on-my-mother-or-strike-me-dead method to tell the difference between an INTP or ISTP (no foolies, I'm serial this time):

fight club or the matrix?

I loved both of these movies for different reasons.

I wonder if Chuck Palahniuk is an S, oh my, he might be!!!

 

[Fluffywolf]

You're an ISTP homie, aka, INTP's better half.

Narrow-minded ENFP. :steam:

 

[SillySapienne]

Don't be hatin'

My INTP father kinda ruined INTPs for me, though I've met some really cool ones on this site!

Also, there's just sumthin' about ISTPs that I instinctively love, and am attracted to.