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Type one of my best friends, please?

Qre:us

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I have her pegged as ESxx.

I tried to go by functional preference, and didn't get much head-way.

She does not show:

- a lot of Ne; unfiltered Ne she, in rare cases, finds amusing, and when she respects it is when it's Ne+Ti [makes sense], but, overall, she gets quite exasperated by it as evidenced by her reaction to seeing me (ENTP) and her sister (ENFP) converse about random shyte in 'weird' ways. She finds it innocent and charming, but, with a tinge of 'ohhh boyyy, here we go again!'

- a lot of Te, but she reveres this a lot in others.

****

I tried to go by temperament and I am not confident in distinctly placing her in either SP or SJ.

****

* More risk-taker than myself.
* Has a good background in customer service, even though she doesn't really want to be in this field [like it that much], but, in general, she has a lot of random friends and acquiantances.
* Values a lot of little 'symbolism'/traditional rituals, finds understanding and romanticism in certain 'ways of things' and why/how they should be followed, but, her own evaluation of whether it's "universally" a right or wrong mindset will trump tradition, always.
- she is very quick to get worked up about stuff, and will spew it out right then and there. To her, it relieves anxiety and frustration of the thought mulling over and over, so she'd rather deal with it in the moment. She's been trying to have more on a handle on her trigger-reaction. Although, IMO, she does give a few strikes before the person is OUT, such that, just like me, when they don't heed the strikes, she will lash out verbally at them.
- has a lot of confusion/conflict with how her sister perceives the world (ENFP), finds her sister often time illogical (which, I'd agree, she is, but it's easier for me to see her sister's way of thinking/justification, while she will dismiss it as....'but that's just stupid!'). She often feels she's right in such judgements against her sister cuz she's like a parent (older sis) to her. Her sister feels she criticizes her too much and picks on little things.
- she, to my confusion at times, often ascribes what a person "morally" should to, and finds it frustrating when they don't. When I tell her that, a person SHOULD do that, but doesn't mean that they will, she can't understand how that is any relevant counter. (Fe?)
- when she recalls something, she goes into a LOT of details and doesn't skip anything. Sometimes, she gets very stuck on recalling something as true, when, I can remember it not happening as she recalls....she gets 'tricked' by Si, sometimes???
- She is def. an in-the-moment type of person. She lives to feel a moment. I see very clearn Se preference in her.
- We both arrive at the same conclusion about what to do/a person's action, but, it seems I give 'words' to why a to b to c, to which she responds, "YES! EXACTLY. I couldn't exactly describe why but yes, THAT is why!" I find a lot more subtle things that she misses to bring in as evidence, while she uses an in-the-moment example. I think it's our shared respect for the process of Ti.
- She is in touch with how she feels/wants, and is vocal about that not being disrespected.
- She can read too much into something/someone, and jump to conclusions about them, sometimes almost extremes. Like, "They're evil." When, after another interaction with them, she will have changed her mind on them. She knows that I don't like how she has 'all these judgements'.
- She is very street-smart, knows what info to keep and give out and when.
- Sometimes, people find her over-friendly and may mistake her friendliness as something 'more'. E.g., she feels that if a person has nice eyes, they should know, doesn't matter if it's a grandma, a child or a dude. But, a dude will think it's cuz she's flirting, and she's not.
- in large groups, she's not very talkative as she is 1 on 1.
- she doesn't like being alone, if there's long periods of alone-time, she's finding people to call to make the time go by.
- she has tested/challenged A LOT of the traditions of what being female in her culture is expected to be.
- she says that she may seem more harsh to those closest to her, because what they do/think matters to her personal sphere, hence, why she is way nicer to strangers than to friends.
- in arguments, she's not as stubborn as me. She will be the first to reach out to sort it out, while I can keep the 'fuck that shit' distance for a while if she didn't intervene and keep wanting to sort it out.
- I think her ISFJ best friend had a lot of influence of SJ temperament on her, they were really close [spent a lot of time together for 6 years], and she acknowledges the shaping of herself through this friend and how a lot of the ways she thinks/interprets she wouldn't have unless she had that kind of exposure to said ISFJ friend. They had an older-sis/younger sis relation where the ISFJ wanted someone to nurture to the max. and my best friend, she perceived to, 'naively need' that nurturing. Which my ESxx friend took, she was taken care of a lot by ISFJ friend, and of recent [after the ISFJ friend got married], she had to refocus on herself and her own identity beyond the duo. Most obviously thing taken from this influential friendship is her judgements she has, and she's been trying to be less harsh in those ways. But, she's also learned how to 'read' people through this ISFJ.
- she also has known a lot of interesting and shady characters, so her 'jumping to the worst/shadiest conclusions' may have roots in that.
 

Tyrant

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She can read too much into something/someone, and jump to conclusions about them, sometimes almost extremes. Like, "They're evil." When, after another interaction with them, she will have changed her mind on them. She knows that I don't like how she has 'all these judgements'.

Clear Fe preference and dominance - ESFj.
 

Qre:us

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Clear Fe preference and dominance - ESFj.

I think it shows her child-like handle on Fe more than a dominance of the function. The dominance of the function wouldn't lead her to jumping to such rash conclusions as it would if it were in the tertiary position [not fully developed]. Given that the culture she grew up in, has a lot of specific expectations of females and their roles, I think her F is more of an apparent face she wears to the outside world, even if functionally she prefers T before F.

My other best friend is ESFJ, the jumping-to-conclusions things happens with her, but it's a very F-tinged jumping to conclusion. You want me to feel this, you wanted to do THIS to me. While my ESxx best friend's jumping-to-conclusion is something particular to that external person, no correlation to how it makes HER feel. She finds such people irrelevant to her sphere of influence, so how they made her feel is irrelevant, she just wants to point out their 'idiotic behaviour' and what they're trying to show of themselves, while my ESFJ friend would and is influenced by such people [e.g., hurt].

As such, I dunno why, I've been thinking: ESTp - Se Ti Fe Ni
 

teslashock

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Necessary preface: I'm relatively new to the typology thing, so if I were you, I wouldn't put too much weight on my opinion. I'm still learning...

...but my guess is ESFP, and here's why:

* More risk-taker than myself.

If you mean risks like jumping out of a plane with nothing more than a nylon sheet or freefalling off a cliff into a large body of water, I'd say that has to do with dominant Se. If you mean challenging tradition, then I can't really attribute it to that.


* Values a lot of little 'symbolism'/traditional rituals, finds understanding and romanticism in certain 'ways of things' and why/how they should be followed, but, her own evaluation of whether it's "universally" a right or wrong mindset will trump tradition, always.
- she is very quick to get worked up about stuff, and will spew it out right then and there. To her, it relieves anxiety and frustration of the thought mulling over and over, so she'd rather deal with it in the moment. She's been trying to have more on a handle on her trigger-reaction. Although, IMO, she does give a few strikes before the person is OUT, such that, just like me, when they don't heed the strikes, she will lash out verbally at them.

That sounds like really Fiery quintessential Fi...something I'd attribute to an SFP.

- has a lot of confusion/conflict with how her sister perceives the world (ENFP), finds her sister often time illogical (which, I'd agree, she is, but it's easier for me to see her sister's way of thinking/justification, while she will dismiss it as....'but that's just stupid!'). She often feels she's right in such judgements against her sister cuz she's like a parent (older sis) to her. Her sister feels she criticizes her too much and picks on little things.

That just seems like an N/S discordance.

- she, to my confusion at times, often ascribes what a person "morally" should to, and finds it frustrating when they don't. When I tell her that, a person SHOULD do that, but doesn't mean that they will, she can't understand how that is any relevant counter.

I'd say that is a result of Fi more than Fe, and the fact that she can't see the relevant discrepancies between what a person SHOULD do and what they will is probably a result of a lack of Ne.

- when she recalls something, she goes into a LOT of details and doesn't skip anything. Sometimes, she gets very stuck on recalling something as true, when, I can remember it not happening as she recalls....she gets 'tricked' by Si, sometimes???

That may just be twisting the copious amounts of information that she takes in from her external world (Se) and twisting it based on Fi.


- She is in touch with how she feels/wants, and is vocal about that not being disrespected.
- She can read too much into something/someone, and jump to conclusions about them, sometimes almost extremes. Like, "They're evil." When, after another interaction with them, she will have changed her mind on them. She knows that I don't like how she has 'all these judgements'.

Again, Fi.


- Sometimes, people find her over-friendly and may mistake her friendliness as something 'more'. E.g., she feels that if a person has nice eyes, they should know, doesn't matter if it's a grandma, a child or a dude. But, a dude will think it's cuz she's flirting, and she's not.

Sounds like overly friendly, quirky SFP to me.


- she has tested/challenged A LOT of the traditions of what being female in her culture is expected to be.

What do you mean by that? How so?

I didn't touch upon every item in your laundry list, but I made what I could out of a lot of it.
 

Tyrant

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How exactly wouldn't a Fe dominant make such a rash conclusion? Fe is a dynamic element - full blown declaration of someone being evil based on the Fe signals (what this person was saying, how they said it, gestures, etc.) this person was sending, and then her opinion was changed based on the next meeting of this person.
 

Qre:us

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How exactly wouldn't a Fe dominant make such a rash conclusion? Fe is a dynamic element - full blown declaration of someone being evil based on the Fe signals (what this person was saying, how they said it, gestures, etc.) this person was sending, and then her opinion was changed based on the next meeting of this person.

The dominance of the function wouldn't lead her to jumping to such rash conclusions as it would if it were in the tertiary position [not fully developed].

<I go on to provide the difference b/w her and an ESFJ I know>

My other best friend is ESFJ, the jumping-to-conclusions things happens with her, but it's a very F-tinged jumping to conclusion.

<explains>

It's not simply a question of jumping to rash conclusions as what one does with such conclusions, which I was alluding to, specifically. And, she has a very distinct way of the conclusions (not) affecting her than my ESFJ friend.

Meaning *something* is tempering the effect of Fe's interpretation differently in my ESxx friend than my ESFJ friend. I think it's my ESxx friend's Ti.
 

Tyrant

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Can you expand on that further any?

While my ESxx best friend's jumping-to-conclusion is something particular to that external person, no correlation to how it makes HER feel.

That's very much Fe. You're confusing Fe with being emotional.
 

Qre:us

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Necessary preface: I'm relatively new to the typology thing, so if I were you, I wouldn't put too much weight on my opinion. I'm still learning...

...but my guess is ESFP, and here's why:



If you mean risks like jumping out of a plane with nothing more than a nylon sheet or freefalling off a cliff into a large body of water, I'd say that has to do with dominant Se. If you mean challenging tradition, then I can't really attribute it to that.




That sounds like really Fiery quintessential Fi...something I'd attribute to an SFP.



That just seems like an N/S discordance.



I'd say that is a result of Fi more than Fe, and the fact that she can't see the relevant discrepancies between what a person SHOULD do and what they will is probably a result of a lack of Ne.

You make a compelling case for ESFP. :yes:

However, looking at profiles of ESFPs, some things don't really resound as particularly her. The attention-seeking, I'm more than her in this regard. She doesn't really hate structure and routine, although she knows she's not very good at it, she HOPES to get better at it. She doesn't see those stuff as negatives.

She doesn't feel very strongly bonded to people, only a select few closest to her. Although she is understanding of different personalities, and, some mis-understood ones, she has sympathy towards. She is not very good with kids but she's good at taking care of them, her ENFP sis is, and so am I, in that we can be 'friends' with them.

She is not silly at all. At all. She's very composed and lady-like, she was way more adult before her time. She doesn't really have a 'love for people' or wanting to meet new people. It's more like she's open to situations and people being a part of it is a fine and predictable by-product, to her.

That may just be twisting the copious amounts of information that she takes in from her external world (Se) and twisting it based on Fi.

I can buy that, Se+Fi giving a type of Si. The feelings associated with an experience, from past, evokes how she recalls that.


What do you mean by that? How so?
What females should and should not do, in a very domineering patriarchal culture. She knows and plays by/to the rules to not bring 'shame' to family, but, she will challenge things that are illogically associated with 'shame', and she slowly has chipped away at that, rather than all at once, in your face.

She has amazing patience for certain things she wants to achieve and lets the 'world' present the 'right' opportunities before she acts on them.
 

Qre:us

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Can you expand on that further any?

Basically that,those who I know with dominant Fe, two of my best friends are ESFJ and ENFJ, the effects of whatever is translated through Fe is more lasting, more internalized, given a lot of weight/more trusted. While, for my ESxx friend, although the jumping to conclusions happen, it's quite easy to change her mind about that person and her previous judgement of them is forgotten, given a second round of interaction, if I make a valid case for the other side, etc. Not so with my ESFJ and ENFJ friend, if Fe leads them to a conclusion about someone, even if that conclusion gets changed later [with a hella lot more effort], they hold on to remnants of the initial scraps Fe had fed them. They 'forgive but don't forget'.

That's very much Fe. You're confusing Fe with being emotional.

Really, I am? How did you infer that? Feeling something does not equal to being emotional.
 

BlackCat

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She sounds ESFP to me, Q.
 

teslashock

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How exactly wouldn't a Fe dominant make such a rash conclusion? Fe is a dynamic element - full blown declaration of someone being evil based on the Fe signals (what this person was saying, how they said it, gestures, etc.) this person was sending, and then her opinion was changed based on the next meeting of this person.

I would say that Fe doms are more likely to make the conclusion that somebody is evil when they experience someone that does something to bring a great deal of disharmony to the community as a whole...to disrupt the community dynamics in a detrimental way. Seeing as the OP didn't really specify the types of situations in which the friend comes to such a conclusion, I somewhat assumed that Q's friend's standard of evil/good is less quantifiable and more personally based. I could be wrong though. Reading too much into something and calling it evil seems more of an Fi-based judgment than an Fe-based one though. I also attributed this to Fi because of the rest of the OP. She has her "own evaluation of whether something is 'universally' right or wrong", is in touch with how she feels, and is quick to ascribe something as moral or immoral based on what seems like internal justification. All of that seems pretty Fi to me, so I attributed the bit about her being fast to call somebody evil to an Fi thing for the sake of relating that one piece of information to the larger whole.
 

teslashock

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You make a compelling case for ESFP. :yes:



She is not silly at all. At all. She's very composed and lady-like, she was way more adult before her time. She doesn't really have a 'love for people' or wanting to meet new people. It's more like she's open to situations and people being a part of it is a fine and predictable by-product, to her.

She could be more an introverted ESFP. Why are you so certain that she is ESxx??




What females should and should not do, in a very domineering patriarchal culture. She knows and plays by/to the rules to not bring 'shame' to family, but, she will challenge things that are illogically associated with 'shame', and she slowly has chipped away at that, rather than all at once, in your face.

That could just be her not wanting to draw attention to herself...something characteristic of introverts in general. Maybe she is more introverted then a a typical ESxx or maybe she is not an E at all? And the bit about not wanting to bring shame to her family, that can be attributed to a lot of things, but it seems more Fe/Si. I don't know.
 

Tyrant

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Basically that,those who I know with dominant Fe, two of my best friends are ESFJ and ENFJ, the effects of whatever is translated through Fe is more lasting, more internalized, given a lot of weight/more trusted. While, for my ESxx friend, although the jumping to conclusions happen, it's quite easy to change her mind about that person and her previous judgement of them is forgotten, given a second round of interaction, if I make a valid case for the other side, etc. Not so with my ESFJ and ENFJ friend, if Fe leads them to a conclusion about someone, even if that conclusion gets changed later [with a hella lot more effort], they hold on to remnants of the initial scraps Fe had fed them. They 'forgive but don't forget'.

I think you're confusing Fi with Fe. Fe is a dynamic (constantly changing and active) element, a judgment based on readily observable facts that hints to a person's internal emotional state and internal processes, the mood of a situation, etc. That's an oversimplification, but you get the idea. These judgments are not set in stone thing, which is evident in this person, because after another meeting with this person, her opinion was changed.

I think you're confusing Fi with Fe.
 

Qre:us

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I think you're confusing Fi with Fe. Fe is a dynamic (constantly changing and active) element, a judgment based on readily observable facts that hints to a person's internal emotional state and internal processes, the mood of a situation, etc. That's an oversimplification, but you get the idea. These judgments are not set in stone thing, which is evident in this person, because after another meeting with this person, her opinion was changed.

I think you're confusing Fi with Fe.

Twice. Noted.

Two things:

(1) Are you saying that what I was seeing as the dominant function in my self-tested ESFJ and ENFJ (the one who introduced me to MBTI) friends have been Fi, not Fe, all this time?


(2) Can you point me to a precise definition of Fi versus Fe whereby it also shows examples of how specific behavioural actions directly correlates to ONLY ONE isolated psychological preference[function] versus another? Which human actions are [only] perscribed to Fi? Which ones Fe?

These judgments are not set in stone thing, which is evident in this person, because after another meeting with this person, her opinion was changed.

Compare that to Fi....? Are Fi opinions more set in stone?

Clear up my utter confusion, please. :D
 

Geoff

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Q, I think you need to apply logic to reason out how feelings work.

Then all will be clear.
 

Qre:us

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I would say that Fe doms are more likely to make the conclusion that somebody is evil when they experience someone that does something to bring a great deal of disharmony to the community as a whole...to disrupt the community dynamics in a detrimental way. Seeing as the OP didn't really specify the types of situations in which the friend comes to such a conclusion, I somewhat assumed that Q's friend's standard of evil/good is less quantifiable and more personally based. I could be wrong though. Reading too much into something and calling it evil seems more of an Fi-based judgment than an Fe-based one though. I also attributed this to Fi because of the rest of the OP. She has her "own evaluation of whether something is 'universally' right or wrong", is in touch with how she feels, and is quick to ascribe something as moral or immoral based on what seems like internal justification. All of that seems pretty Fi to me, so I attributed the bit about her being fast to call somebody evil to an Fi thing for the sake of relating that one piece of information to the larger whole.

:static: One of the few times, I can follow a pattern of justification so clearly. Woot!

Yes, I didn't want to give out too much personal info, even as describing incidents about her. My OP is a main reason you guys, as webz 3rd party, having issues peggin' in terms of function preference.

I would say that Fe doms are more likely to make the conclusion that somebody is evil when they experience someone that does something to bring a great deal of disharmony to the community as a whole...to disrupt the community dynamics in a detrimental way.

This. This is her measurement pertaining to:

standard of evil/good

The dude was evil because, as I also perceived him, he was a smooth-talker, an oily character, he had 'shifty eyes'/vibe.
My stance when meeting him: shady character, intriguing for the curiosity, but I ain't trusting what he's saying further than I can throw him.

Her stance: He's evil. He's got the evil eyes. The way he was interacting with me, her, her sister (ENFP) and another friend of hers [evil dude, le bf]. He was not a good character for the world. He was "evil".

(she chose the word "evil" obviously to make a dramatic assertioin of the sentiment she wanted to convey about his character)

It is not however, her motivation, this:
somewhat assumed that Q's friend's[...] is less quantifiable and more personally based. I could be wrong though. Reading too much into something and calling it evil seems more of an Fi-based judgment than an Fe-based one though. I also attributed this to Fi because of the rest of the OP.

She again doesn't have that personal investment in this dude except that he disrupts her immediate associated environment's harmony (e.g., a friend of hers is dating the :devil:).


Appropo, a convo b/w ESxx and the friend who's dating the dude after my ESxx told her friend, in nicer terms, that he was rude:

Friend [a crazy type, ESFP]: Why are you nervous and insecure around him?

ESxx: Wait. What? Nervous? Yes, I may be nervous around him in that as your friend, I want to make a good impression as this is a person you're dating, is important to you. But, insecure?? HELL. FUCKING. NO. What do I have to be insecure to him for and who the hell is he to me?

Friend: Well...well...it's just, I would never say anything bad about you guys to him. And I haven't done that. So, why would he be rude to you guys when he's meeting you all for the first time?

ESxx: You haven't told him anything about us?** Yeah right. At the end of the day, you're dating him, not us, I'm just letting you know, as a character, I found him rude, cuz you asked my opinion of what I thought of him. He was not just rude to me, but Q, and my sis.

** MY ESxx called that out correctly as crazy ESFP had slipped out earlier that she tells him x, y, z about us.


She has her "own evaluation of whether something is 'universally' right or wrong",

More like if X is done to ANYONE, they would FEEL like crap-Y, so a person shouldn't do X if they don't expect X back.

is in touch with how she feels, and is quick to ascribe something as moral or immoral based on what seems like internal justification.

This is where this point of my OP, I think is relevant:
- We both arrive at the same conclusion about what to do/a person's action, but, it seems I give 'words' to why a to b to c, to which she responds, "YES! EXACTLY. I couldn't exactly describe why but yes, THAT is why!" I find a lot more subtle things that she misses to bring in as evidence, while she uses an in-the-moment example. I think it's our shared respect for the process of Ti.

I can always figure out her process of rationalization and it makes practical sense at the end. [and, I'm not very forgiving to the illogical].

It's just that she calls/voices the emotional spark that a contradiction to social dealings evokes faster than she does the justification for it. Although, the justification is always there, given X, Y, Z incident that the person did. It's never attached to her internalized perception as it is to things the people actually do and how that affects all these things. Outward. It's just the voice that's first heard, as a reaction is seemingly 'conclusive' [He's evil]. But, if you ask her to explain herself, her thoughts, the reasoing seems a more global consideration.

Hence, just as easy it is for her emotion to spark, it cools down, cuz she reflects more on the gut conclusion she reached, and works out the rationalization. Which, if we are bouncing off each other, I voice the rationalization faster, on her behalf, than she does. She has trouble saying it in words.


She could be more an introverted ESFP.

I was JUST going to say this. I had a talk with her, and asked her a few questions. Will post in next post. But, yeah, she's eSxx.

Why are you so certain that she is ESxx??

The S I'm confident.


That could just be her not wanting to draw attention to herself...something characteristic of introverts in general. Maybe she is more introverted then a a typical ESxx or maybe she is not an E at all? And the bit about not wanting to bring shame to her family, that can be attributed to a lot of things, but it seems more Fe/Si. I don't know.

YES. again. read my mind. :smile:
 

Qre:us

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Just met up with her, asked her a few questions, here are her answers.

[I have tried explaining MBTI to her before, too much 'theory' blah blah for her, hence, no real interest]

I used people in her life as comparison of a trait/preference.

Her ISTJ bf and herself. Her to her ENFP sister.

He needs a lot more alone time, thoughts to himself, internal than her. But, she's not as much as her sister. She said she can be like her ISTJ bf, where friends think they're quiet but NEVER 'as bad' as her ISTJ.

= e versus E?

*~*

Her ENFP sister versus her.

[me: what are your 3 main personality clashes b/w you and your sister?]

Her: Sis is more 'head in clouds'.

[me: here-and-now versus possibilities?]

Her: Sis more possibilities, I'm definitely here and now [practical, way, way more practical than ENFP sis of hers]. Her sister also has a great imagination of abstraction which she knows she doesn't, in the way her sis does. The more conceptual, abstract. "My [ENFP] sis used to talk to the walls as a kid. :laugh: She thought they were her friends, probably."

[me: I did that too]

Her: :dry: I know. :D

= S not N?
*~*
My INTJ bf [very, very J] and her, ESxx. Her ENFP sister versus her.

[me: would you say you're more like [INTJ] in that you like to make a decision that works for the moment, and move on to the next? Or are you more the type open to possibilities, seeing what other things are associated with it? You know, like your [ENFP sis] is?]

Her: Yeah, no, no way am I like [INTJ], I am def. similar to [ENFP] in that we're pretty open minded, but, I think we're open-minded about wayy different things. Hers are rarely set in reality.

= P, not J? I think her P is actually p, too.

****
Didn't get a chance to ask her about the T/F. I was waiting to see what kind of questions/ways I could phrase to figure out T/F, esp. diff. b/w her preference of F [Fi versus Fe]. Suggestions?

{as illustrated, when I use concrete comparable stuff, she wants to engage/likes to in MBTI-derived talk. It has to be applicable. Give examples of people we know, illustrate the dichotomies, although, I wish I could easier figure out how to ask questions that taps into functions more than the 4 dichotomies}
 
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