Lend Me A Hand...

[Orangey]

...typing my (younger) brother. Below is a list of traits that I think might be helpful towards this end. But first, an introduction. When he takes the tests, he consistently comes out INFP. However, he has had some anomalous results, such as INFJ, ENTP, and ENFP, and is now thoroughly confused as to what his true type might be. Also, it has always been noted by our family that we are fairly similar as far as interests and being of a more calm, laid-back (frequently put in such non-flattering terms as "lazy") temperament. So tell me what your impression is based on this profile:

• His living area is pretty messy. Not slob messy with food or anything (he hates that), but just sloppy and not precisely ordered.
• He was an underachiever in high school to a slightly more significant degree than any in our immediate family.
• He can be a picky eater...and was certainly when he was younger. Our mother used to remark that he might not eat if she didn't remind him. This is less true now, of course, but he is still finicky.
• He actively dislikes sports and sports culture. He thinks the types of people who spend a lot of mental energy on that sort of thing are "meat-headed idiots."
• That said, he has tried to play a couple of sports in the past, namely hockey and wrestling, which he enjoyed for the short time that he lasted playing them.
• He is very artistic. His whole life he's wanted to be some sort of artist or other, though his media of choice have never included most of the traditional sort (he doesn't really get into, for instance, oil painting).
• His mega-goal is to become a film director.
• When he was little, he was always fairly quiet and serious.
• When he was little, he was obsessed with drawing "monster-like" characters.
• Nowadays, he is still a pretty quiet person, though he certainly doesn't lack social confidence.

• He thinks he might be extraverted because he has a pretty wide variety of friends (though only a couple of them are "close" to him), and he often enjoys socializing on his own terms.
• He actively resists having jobs (he hasn't really had a real job yet and he's 18). He's given it a half-hearted go, but only under pressure of our parents.
• He really really dislikes structure and authority. If someone tells him to do something, he will not do it (or do it begrudgingly, on his own time schedule) just because they told him to do it.
• He is into fantasy-type stuff, though not LOTR like me and my INTJ brother used to be into when we were younger. He likes to draw fantasy creatures.
• He likes literature, particularly Flannery O'Connor novels.
• He doesn't really ever react to conflict...when I (or anyone else) picks a fight with him, he just gets annoyed and closes down. He doesn't show a reaction.
• Instead, he will mumble some sideways insult at you. He is a master smartass.
• He is pretty verbally clever and takes pleasure in outwitting his friends or making fun of them in a subtle way. He has a wry sense of humor, but can sometimes be really silly too. By that I mean he takes pleasure in doing ridiculous personas and talking nonsense for fun.
• When he was little, he used to have this thing with his stuffed animals where, if he spent too much time playing with one, he'd feel bad about neglecting the others. And he wouldn't eat a cookie shaped like Snoopy because he would feel bad. To this day he still keeps some of his stuffed animals around in his room.
• He is very laid-back.

Okay, that's it for now, so tell me what you think.

 

[Usehername]

Sounds NFP to me. Though my NFP dad and bro love playing sports (they're just meh about watching pro sports).

 

[incubustribute]

Ha, my little bro is so much the opposite of many of these traits, and I had him as INFP. Maybe I need to reconsider...

 

[Ginkgo]

Definitely an NFP. I chuckled at the fact that he drew pictures of "monsters". That, along with the rest of what you said, reminds me of myself.

I'm leaning toward iNFP.

 

[Orangey]

Thanks for the responses so far. I would be satisfied with INFP for him, but there are a few things about him that (I think) are not true to type:

• He can be quite stingy and calculating at times. He doesn't have any problem getting the better half of a trade.
• He is not really all that empathetic. Now I know that Fi isn't really the type of feeling to show itself outwardly, but usually I see some signs in Fi doms and auxs (such as solemnity over certain issues, being quietly ethical, etc.,). He doesn't really bother himself or get bothered about the problems plaguing other humans.
• He is not really sensitive. If I wanted to offend him I wouldn't really know where to begin. This could just be because he keeps his sensitivities hidden, but I have never seen him offended or hurt over much of anything. When he's upset about something, it's usually because he's frustrated at what he sees as the injustice of his situation (whatever it may be at the time.) My INTJ brother gets offended and indignant more often by comparison.
• He can have quite a "get mine" attitude, meaning that sometimes, as long as his needs have been fulfilled, he couldn't be bothered about the needs of others. This attitude shows itself only rarely, though.
• He's not all that morally upright, and there has never been any indication of a strong value system. I mean, he does value authenticity, but he will take expediency over authenticity in most cases.
• He is not an overall cynical person (I am...), but he has a bit of a disdain for people in general. He was always concerned with how "stupid" and "idiotic" all of his classmates were, including some of his own friends.

Now I'm not sure how un-NFP any of this is, so if I am mistaken in thinking that these bullet points are contradictory to the type, then by all means correct me. Until that time, however, I will continue to think, mostly from experience, that these things I've listed about him are evidence against NFP.

 

[Usehername]

I don't think replying point-by-point will be helpful as I feel unqualified to speak for more than my observation of my INFP brother, but his Fi is so hidden that I was very confident he was an INTP. (He took the test, came up as INFP which he said described him exactly, and then I made him read INTP descriptions which he only did to shut me up and he confirmed that he was not an INTP but indeed an INFP.)

My brother is in engineering, a strong athlete, and breezed through his calculus class without ever taking notes and still getting one of the top marks. Unlike my NFP dad and INFP friend, he never "showed" his Fi, perhaps because his stereotypically male skillset got in the way.

 

[Orangey]

I don't think replying point-by-point will be helpful as I feel unqualified to speak for more than my observation of my INFP brother, but his Fi is so hidden that I was very confident he was an INTP. (He took the test, came up as INFP which he said described him exactly, and then I made him read INTP descriptions which he only did to shut me up and he confirmed that he was not an INTP but indeed an INFP.)

My brother is in engineering, a strong athlete, and breezed through his calculus class without ever taking notes and still getting one of the top marks. Unlike my NFP dad and INFP friend, he never "showed" his Fi, perhaps because his stereotypically male skillset got in the way.

Well if your brother doesn't show his Fi, it may be very likely that my brother does something similar. I guess for guys, if there is such an equal likelihood of NFP to NTP or some other T, then they are most likely the F one.

 

[OrangeAppled]

He sounds mostly INFP, from this. A lot of the OP sounds ISFP also, but a few details make me say N over S, such as his verbal wit and taste in literature. Se humor and tastes seem different.

Thanks for the responses so far. I would be satisfied with INFP for him, but there are a few things about him that (I think) are not true to type:

• He can be quite stingy and calculating at times. He doesn't have any problem getting the better half of a trade. Inferior Te?
• He is not really all that empathetic. Now I know that Fi isn't really the type of feeling to show itself outwardly, but usually I see some signs in Fi doms and auxs (such as solemnity over certain issues, being quietly ethical, etc.,). He doesn't really bother himself or get bothered about the problems plaguing other humans.
• He is not really sensitive. If I wanted to offend him I wouldn't really know where to begin. This could just be because he keeps his sensitivities hidden, but I have never seen him offended or hurt over much of anything. When he's upset about something, it's usually because he's frustrated at what he sees as the injustice of his situation (whatever it may be at the time.) My INTJ brother gets offended and indignant more often by comparison.
• He can have quite a "get mine" attitude, meaning that sometimes, as long as his needs have been fulfilled, he couldn't be bothered about the needs of others. This attitude shows itself only rarely, though. Selfish Fi, haha
• He's not all that morally upright, and there has never been any indication of a strong value system. I mean, he does value authenticity, but he will take expediency over authenticity in most cases.
• He is not an overall cynical person (I am...), but he has a bit of a disdain for people in general. He was always concerned with how "stupid" and "idiotic" all of his classmates were, including some of his own friends. Not unusual for an INFP to develop that attitude.

Eh, if you were to ask my family about me, they'd probably say some of this as well. I think because there are so many SF and extroverted women, I seem a bit cold by comparison, but in other settings I can be quite compassionate/empathetic/ethical. My family brings out the cranky side of me, haha.

Also, values can be so guarded so as not to be shown, but I agree that you will see some kind of firm stand from time to time with most INFPs. The sensitivity thing is interesting also. I'm sure some INFPs have grown a thick skin, but it's not typical. Have you ever criticized his artwork as an experiment?

Have you read Jung's descriptions? The description of Fi there is less sugary and paints a clearer picture, IMO.

 

[Orangey]

He sounds mostly INFP, from this. A lot of the OP sounds ISFP also, but a few details make me say N over S, such as his verbal wit and taste in literature. Se humor and tastes seem different.

Thanks for offering your opinion. He actually considered ISFP for a while because of his extreme aesthetic focus, but he decided that a lot of the key traits of that type didn't fit him very well. Plus, just from my observation, he has always been an extremely dreamy type of person. He is the worst about picking up on details (unless he cares about it, like in an art project or something). This pisses our ISTJ mother off to no end . Also, he is fairly philosophically inclined, and likes when he can detect such ideas in films and other artwork. Not in the analytical sense, of course, but more "philosophy of life" or existential in nature.

Eh, if you were to ask my family about me, they'd probably say some of this as well. I think because there are so many SF and extroverted women, I seem a bit cold by comparison, but in other settings I can be quite compassionate/empathetic/ethical. My family brings out the cranky side of me, haha.

Well, I guess I'm underselling his compassion. It is not evident in things like talking about political issues or the plights of others, but it is evident in everyday sorts of interactions, to a degree. For instance, him and I (and my two other siblings) were having dinner at a restaurant when I went home to visit over the summer, and we had *terrible* service. The waiter got our orders messed up and made us wait an obscenely long amount of time for our food. Anyway, me and my ESFP sister were indignant about it, and we (mostly she) decided to make a verbal fuss over it with the waiter. While we were deliberating about what to do, however, I recall my brother (the one we're typing) voicing his wish for us not to make a big deal about it, because "he's [the waiter] a nice guy." We then had a brief discussion with a couple of us telling him that it doesn't matter if he's nice, because he screwed up the one thing he's paid to do while he's there. He didn't think the principle of it mattered, and would have preferred that we just leave it alone since it wasn't a big deal in his view. In any case, we ended up getting free desert and some coupons out of it, hehe.

Also, values can be so guarded so as not to be shown, but I agree that you will see some kind of firm stand from time to time with most INFPs. The sensitivity thing is interesting also. I'm sure some INFPs have grown a thick skin, but it's not typical. Have you ever criticized his artwork as an experiment?

Have you read Jung's descriptions? The description of Fi there is less sugary and paints a clearer picture, IMO.

I have criticized his artwork before, but I couldn't remember how he reacted. I don't actually remember him reacting at all. However, according to his testimony, he already had a "stock answer" ready for my type of criticism (I tended to criticize anatomy and proportion) so as to protect himself from getting heated. He said he "got that heated feeling inside" a little bit when I started to criticize him on that basis, but he subverted it with his stock response. He has also frequently described his video classes at school as inspiring the worst sorts of reactions from him. For instance, he told me about how he would feel so angry when his classmates criticized his artwork for "stupid reasons," (which, they did sound stupid, to be fair) and how he cursed his class out when they tried to unfairly criticize him for not doing enough work. Also, he tends to get worked up over issues such as whether or not videogames or computer artwork count as art per se, and he did tell me that during a debate over the ethics of the Hiroshima and Nagasake bombings he became so worked up that words were failing him.

And yeah, I've read the Jung Fi descriptions. They are certainly less sugary, but also a little vague and non-specific (and, let's be honest, obscure). So I don't use them much for the practical purposes of identifying people's types from behavior.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Well, I guess I'm underselling his compassion. It is not evident in things like talking about political issues or the plights of others, but it is evident in everyday sorts of interactions, to a degree. For instance, him and I (and my two other siblings) were having dinner at a restaurant when I went home to visit over the summer, and we had *terrible* service. The waiter got our orders messed up and made us wait an obscenely long amount of time for our food. Anyway, me and my ESFP sister were indignant about it, and we (mostly she) decided to make a verbal fuss over it with the waiter. While we were deliberating about what to do, however, I recall my brother (the one we're typing) voicing his wish for us not to make a big deal about it, because "he's [the waiter] a nice guy." We then had a brief discussion with a couple of us telling him that it doesn't matter if he's nice, because he screwed up the one thing he's paid to do while he's there. He didn't think the principle of it mattered, and would have preferred that we just leave it alone since it wasn't a big deal in his view. In any case, we ended up getting free desert and some coupons out of it, hehe.

INFPs are likely to keep their core principles very guarded. I do not talk about religion or politics with people, because it starts to touch on my basic ethics and that's like, the center of who I am and it leaves me feeling naked and vulnerable. So, yeah, it seems he does empathize easily with people, from this story.

I have criticized his artwork before, but I couldn't remember how he reacted. I don't actually remember him reacting at all. However, according to his testimony, he already had a "stock answer" ready for my type of criticism (I tended to criticize anatomy and proportion) so as to protect himself from getting heated. He said he "got that heated feeling inside" a little bit when I started to criticize him on that basis, but he subverted it with his stock response. He has also frequently described his video classes at school as inspiring the worst sorts of reactions from him. For instance, he told me about how he would feel so angry when his classmates criticized his artwork for "stupid reasons," (which, they did sound stupid, to be fair) and how he cursed his class out when they tried to unfairly criticize him for not doing enough work. Also, he tends to get worked up over issues such as whether or not videogames or computer artwork count as art per se, and he did tell me that during a debate over the ethics of the Hiroshima and Nagasake bombings he became so worked up that words were failing him.

Haha....some of that sounds like me talking about design. Yeah, he's likely INFP. We don't necessarily get verbally get defensive, but we may just get quiet and steam internally. Sounds like he's figured out a way to appear cool under criticism, which is great if he's going to be a pro artist of some kind.

And yeah, I've read the Jung Fi descriptions. They are certainly less sugary, but also a little vague and non-specific (and, let's be honest, obscure). So I don't use them much for the practical purposes of identifying people's types from behavior.

Oh, okay. Maybe because it's describing my dominant function I found it clearer than some profiles which gloss over certain aspects of INFPs. I suppose it's better for self-identification though.

 

[JAVO]

What tests has he taken (real MBTI vs. Facebook one)? What did the real MBTI show if he took that?

What does he think about technical stuff?

Is he worn out by friends, or seemingly craving more interaction?

Does he ever go into "clown mode" or continuous, overt displays of verbal prowess and wit in front of people?

 

[Orangey]

INFPs are likely to keep their core principles very guarded. I do not talk about religion or politics with people, because it starts to touch on my basic ethics and that's like, the center of who I am and it leaves me feeling naked and vulnerable. So, yeah, it seems he does empathize easily with people, from this story.

Ah, so he probably has some pretty strong views but just doesn't share them? I know he's told me more than once that he finds me annoying whenever I go on one of my lectures about politics or religion. It's not stuff that he likes to really talk about. I always thought it was from lack of interest, but it could be that he just has some pretty definite views and doesn't see why it's necessary to talk about them. Like a "no one is going to change their minds about what's important to them" kind of thinking.

Haha....some of that sounds like me talking about design. Yeah, he's likely INFP. We don't necessarily get verbally get defensive, but we may just get quiet and steam internally. Sounds like he's figured out a way to appear cool under criticism, which is great if he's going to be a pro artist of some kind.

Yeah, I think he definitely steams internally.

Oh, okay. Maybe because it's describing my dominant function I found it clearer than some profiles which gloss over certain aspects of INFPs. I suppose it's better for self-identification though.

Nah, it's probably just me. I find it hard enough to assign the everyday language versions of the functions to behavior, much less Jung's more obscurely worded versions.

 

[Orangey]

What tests has he taken (real MBTI vs. Facebook one)? What did the real MBTI show if he took that?

He hasn't taken the official MBTI.

What does he think about technical stuff?

Hmm...he has no problem using different gadgets (he was into modding video game systems and all that), and he is quite adept at the computer. He was never really interested in things like programming or learning the technical details of the machinery, though. He only dealt with that kind of thing insofar as it allowed him to produce whatever art project (be it a 3D model, a little video game, etc.,) he was working on at the time.

Is he worn out by friends, or seemingly craving more interaction?

He gets worn out by his friends a lot. They would stop by and he would passive aggressively ignore them until they got bored or got the hint and left.

Does he ever go into "clown mode" or continuous, overt displays of verbal prowess and wit in front of people?

Yes, he definitely goes into "clown mode." He will adopt different ridiculous personae (like a ghetto person, the announcer from Cold Case Files, an over-the-top poet, Lady Elaine) and batter people down with nonsense talk. He also has streaks where he continuously makes fun of the people surrounding him using subtle, snarky remarks.

 

[JAVO]

This is a tough one. He seems very well balanced on I/E and T/F. I'm going to have to go with these types, in order of probability:

1. INTP
2. INFP
3. ENTP
4. ENFP

 

[Orangey]

This is a tough one. He seems very well balanced on I/E and T/F. I'm going to have to go with these types, in order of probability:

1. INTP
2. INFP
3. ENTP
4. ENFP

Hmmm...you're the only one so far who thinks he sounds remotely T. Care to say a few words about why?

 

[JAVO]

Hmmm...you're the only one so far who thinks he sounds remotely T. Care to say a few words about why?

*sticks neck out a little too far*

All of these items seem T, although he could certainly still be slightly more F.

• He actively dislikes sports and sports culture. He thinks the types of people who spend a lot of mental energy on that sort of thing are "meat-headed idiots."
• That said, he has tried to play a couple of sports in the past, namely hockey and wrestling, which he enjoyed for the short time that he lasted playing them.
• He doesn't really ever react to conflict...when I (or anyone else) picks a fight with him, he just gets annoyed and closes down. He doesn't show a reaction.
• Instead, he will mumble some sideways insult at you. He is a master smartass.
• He is pretty verbally clever and takes pleasure in outwitting his friends or making fun of them in a subtle way. He has a wry sense of humor, but can sometimes be really silly too. By that I mean he takes pleasure in doing ridiculous personas and talking nonsense for fun.
• He can be quite stingy and calculating at times. He doesn't have any problem getting the better half of a trade.
• He is not really all that empathetic. Now I know that Fi isn't really the type of feeling to show itself outwardly, but usually I see some signs in Fi doms and auxs (such as solemnity over certain issues, being quietly ethical, etc.,). He doesn't really bother himself or get bothered about the problems plaguing other humans.
• He is not really sensitive. If I wanted to offend him I wouldn't really know where to begin. This could just be because he keeps his sensitivities hidden, but I have never seen him offended or hurt over much of anything. When he's upset about something, it's usually because he's frustrated at what he sees as the injustice of his situation (whatever it may be at the time.) My INTJ brother gets offended and indignant more often by comparison.
• He can have quite a "get mine" attitude, meaning that sometimes, as long as his needs have been fulfilled, he couldn't be bothered about the needs of others. This attitude shows itself only rarely, though.
• He's not all that morally upright, and there has never been any indication of a strong value system. I mean, he does value authenticity, but he will take expediency over authenticity in most cases.
• He is not an overall cynical person (I am...), but he has a bit of a disdain for people in general. He was always concerned with how "stupid" and "idiotic" all of his classmates were, including some of his own friends.

I think it would be interesting to hear how someone who doesn't know him as well as you would describe him. That might clarify things due to less, but more significant, data.

Edit:
By the way, how old is he?

 

[OrangeAppled]

Ah, so he probably has some pretty strong views but just doesn't share them? I know he's told me more than once that he finds me annoying whenever I go on one of my lectures about politics or religion. It's not stuff that he likes to really talk about. I always thought it was from lack of interest, but it could be that he just has some pretty definite views and doesn't see why it's necessary to talk about them. Like a "no one is going to change their minds about what's important to them" kind of thinking.

Well, that's not my reason for choosing to not to talk about certain things, but I can't speak for your brother. Like I said before though, it may more of a vulnerability thing; plus it's probably conflict avoidance, as those discussions can become heated. INFPs can also be sensitive to pushing values on people. Maybe that's what he sees you as doing, and why it annoys him.

As for views being definite, well I'm not sure they have to be well defined to be kept hidden. I mean, not having definite ideas might also keep an INFP from speaking up. It's hard to say, but lack of vocalizing them doesn't mean they don't exist. Values with an INFP can be less "I believe in this, this, and this" than a general feeling about something. Until the INFP can confidently express that feeling in an articulate manner (which sometimes feels like writing a book, another reason we may avoid talking about it - it's exhausting!), they may just avoid it all together. In Jung's descriptions, he talks about "primordial images" (basic values and ideals) and how the INFP finds it difficult to express these (probably why many lean towards the arts).

 

[entropie]

which hand do you want

 

[ajblaise]

Have you had him take the cognitive functions test yet?

My first guess would be INTP. It sounds like he uses Ti, and if he's not sensitive and has no real personal value system, it makes it seem more unlikely that Fi would be his dominant function.