Random thought

[kyuuei]

Well I agree entirely that INTPs do have F of some sort in their bones.. even if the ones here bury them behind mounds of bs..

But honestly, it's your voice, your tone, and how passionately you argued things like spanking your children that make me lean on the F more than the T. Your sense of right or wrong is very absolute, a more J quality imo, but mayhap you're confusing a strong J for T? Efficient, logical things can also stem from a J mindset. INFJs don't have to me insane, illogical people. They just happen to like taking on that trait

 

[redacted]

Well I agree entirely that INTPs do have F of some sort in their bones.. even if the ones here bury them behind mounds of bs..

But honestly, it's your voice, your tone, and how passionately you argued things like spanking your children that make me lean on the F more than the T. Your sense of right or wrong is very absolute, a more J quality imo, but mayhap you're confusing a strong J for T? Efficient, logical things can also stem from a J mindset. INFJs don't have to me insane, illogical people. They just happen to like taking on that trait

The INTPs I know can get pretty damn passionate when arguing a point, especially a value judgment, because they believe they have analyzed it better than others. My roommate gets way more passionate than I in debate.

 

[kyuuei]

Well I dunno. It's only my two cents. If you pondering not being an INFJ then you're going to change your type regardless of the sentiments of those that disagree.

I think if you're doubting it in the first place, it's a good indicator that you're not satisfied with it. Just know that whatever stigmas and stereotypes you're coming across with INFJ will carry over to INTP, they'll just be different. So I'd make sure I was happy with the conversion entirely first. You seem really advent about not being an INFJ like it's such a bad thing..

 

[JocktheMotie]

I don't know you very well, so I have no first hand experience when it comes to your thought processes, but being an INFJ with a highly developed relief Ti [considering what you stated about your mother, an overstressed Fe can lead to the emergence of a powerful relief Ti to cope] makes more sense than Ne that kinda looks like Ni when Ti is involved, but then Si is completely bypassed as relief for development of inferior Fe, and then maybe you just never noticed before because every INTP on this site exaggerate and suppress various functions for no apparent reason.

Also, logical thought is a tool, and a faculty of every human mind, not really just Ti "users." It seems as though you use Ti and "logic" rather interchangeably, when I think they're quite separate. You're perfectly capable of loving logic as someone who primarily judges information based on Fe criteria for decision making.

 

[Matthew_Z]

The INTPs I know can get pretty damn passionate when arguing a point, especially a value judgment, because they believe they have analyzed it better than others. My roommate gets way more passionate than I in debate.

How do you know they're not INFJs mistyped as INTPs?

I don't have anywhere enough information here to work with. I still haven't the slightest idea about how your thought process works. Until I actually see statistical evidence, I can't make a call about your type whatsoever.

That being said, I do have enough information in this thread to make some analysis. It seems awfully apparent that you desire to not be an INFJ, and would prefer to be one of the "logical" types. This would probably stem from stereotypes about feelers being irrational and whatnot. Given that you have apparently displayed a strong Ti, INTP would be the most probable of NT types that you could fit into.

(keeping in mind that the "Either-or" fallacy is an informal fallacy, I proceed.)
In this situation, if you were an INFJ whom didn't want to be an INFJ, you would likely be having a "false-rational" moment where you believe one point and use whatever evidence you can scrape up to support your case. If this scenario were true, the "I'm too logical/ have too strong of a Ti for an F" and "The Fe could have been conditioned" would fit the bill of the aforementioned evidence.

Another possible scenario is that you an INTP whom was previously mistyped as an INFJ and, given some contemplation time, has discovered that they are actually an INTP. In this scenario, you are an INTP who thinks they are an INTP, but you are not fully confident of this hypothesis. Also in this scenario, you've already reasoned that any behavior you have that could be attributed to an INFJ was generated from a combination of gradual conditioning and some form of Forer effect.

I do not have sufficient evidence argue for either scenario. It is up to you to determine which one applies. However, the small amount of evidence I do have inclines me to favor the first scenario.

PS: As always, don't be too quick to rule out other types, especially the intermediate types between INTP and INFJ. (INFP and INTJ)

 

[redacted]

Well I dunno. It's only my two cents. If you pondering not being an INFJ then you're going to change your type regardless of the sentiments of those that disagree.

I think if you're doubting it in the first place, it's a good indicator that you're not satisfied with it. Just know that whatever stigmas and stereotypes you're coming across with INFJ will carry over to INTP, they'll just be different. So I'd make sure I was happy with the conversion entirely first. You seem really advent about not being an INFJ like it's such a bad thing..

Nothing to do with whether I'm satisfied with the INFJ stereotypes (which I'm not, but I'm not with INTP either...)

I don't think being an INFJ is a bad thing. I just think saying I'm an INFJ if I'm really an INTP is a bad thing

I just want the correct answer.

But yeah, most likely I'll come up with it myself and not listen to any of you.

I don't know you very well, so I have no first hand experience when it comes to your thought processes, but being an INFJ with a highly developed relief Ti [considering what you stated about your mother, an overstressed Fe can lead to the emergence of a powerful relief Ti to cope] makes more sense than Ne that kinda looks like Ni when Ti is involved, but then Si is completely bypassed as relief for development of inferior Fe, and then maybe you just never noticed before because every INTP on this site exaggerate and suppress various functions for no apparent reason.

Yeah, I was thinking exactly this. INFJ might make more sense (have a higher prior probability?), but that still doesn't mean INFJ is the most likely given the combination of prior and data.

Also, logical thought is a tool, and a faculty of every human mind, not really just Ti "users." It seems as though you use Ti and "logic" rather interchangeably, when I think they're quite separate. You're perfectly capable of loving logic as someone who primarily judges information based on Fe criteria for decision making.

I'm not using logic as analogous with Ti, although Ti is probably closer to "pure" logic than Te since it feeds on itself instead of environmental information. Doesn't matter much, though, as T is just deductive logic.

How do you know they're not INFJs mistyped as INTPs?

Well, I don't. But you can always use that argument, so it doesn't matter.

I don't have anywhere enough information here to work with. I still haven't the slightest idea about how your thought process works. Until I actually see statistical evidence, I can't make a call about your type whatsoever.

That being said, I do have enough information in this thread to make some analysis. It seems awfully apparent that you desire to not be an INFJ, and would prefer to be one of the "logical" types. This would probably stem from stereotypes about feelers being irrational and whatnot. Given that you have apparently displayed a strong Ti, INTP would be the most probable of NT types that you could fit into.

No no, it really doesn't have to do with not wanting to be INFJ. I just want to be correct. I never really entertained INTP as a possibility (although I've always maintained it was a close 2nd best fit type) until now.

(keeping in mind that the "Either-or" fallacy is an informal fallacy, I proceed.)
In this situation, if you were an INFJ whom didn't want to be an INFJ, you would likely be having a "false-rational" moment where you believe one point and use whatever evidence you can scrape up to support your case. If this scenario were true, the "I'm too logical/ have too strong of a Ti for an F" and "The Fe could have been conditioned" would fit the bill of the aforementioned evidence.

Yes, it could be confirmation bias, which is why I'm trying to take two stances in my analysis. I have to assume I'm INFJ and try to prove INTP wrong, then I have to assume I'm INTP and try to prove INFJ wrong. Then I have to compare the two analyses.

Another possible scenario is that you an INTP whom was previously mistyped as an INFJ and, given some contemplation time, has discovered that they are actually an INTP. In this scenario, you are an INTP who thinks they are an INTP, but you are not fully confident of this hypothesis. Also in this scenario, you've already reasoned that any behavior you have that could be attributed to an INFJ was generated from a combination of gradual conditioning and some form of Forer effect.

Right. This is the possibility I was considering when I made this thread.

I do not have sufficient evidence argue for either scenario. It is up to you to determine which one applies. However, the small amount of evidence I do have inclines me to favor the first scenario.

PS: As always, don't be too quick to rule out other types, especially the intermediate types between INTP and INFJ. (INFP and INTJ)

I will definitely rule out INTJ and INFP, though, as Te and Fi are some of my weakest two functions, in tests, but more importantly, through study and introspection.

And yes, it seems more likely overall to have an INFJ mistyping as INTP than an INTP mistyping as INFJ. But (do you know bayes rule?) that's only one part of the total likelihood of my type being one or the other.

 

[Matthew_Z]

Right. This is the possibility I was considering when I made this thread.

Of course. I've made my own "Am I an INTP?" thread. I know the feeling. I suspect our two threads aren't completely unrelated. Perchance your thoughts about possibly being an INTP were brought to your conscious mind after reading my thread?

And yes, it seems more likely overall to have an INFJ mistyping as INTP than an INTP mistyping as INFJ. But (do you know bayes rule?) that's only one part of the total likelihood of my type being one or the other.

Statistics is one of my foremost affinities. Of course, why bet on chance when you don't have to? Instead of making a judgment call based simply on the chance of you being either type, why don't you try for some empirical evidence? My advice is to go test the two theories against a final cognitive functions test. (which, of course, you will take as objectively as possible)

 

[Eric B]

Can't being a Ti dom make Ne look more like Ni, just because Ti is so focused on the internal standard?

It's just that I use Ti more than anyone else I know except other INTPs (of which I know 3, I realized), and even compared with them I seem pretty obsessed with logic.

Developed Fe could easily just be a response to my environment. I was heavily influenced by predicting my mother's craziness, forcing me to come up with a consistent value system for how one should act so that I could figure out when I should accept what she was doing or not. Also, my first girlfriend was ENFJ, and her mode of thought completely changed the way I interacted from then on (plus, she died, so there was all this weird psychology regarding carrying on her role and understanding of people).

I rarely ever make value judgments in any conversation, I just argue for consistency, regardless of whether or not I think the viewpoint is "right".

Yeah; I've never seen you making value judgments, at least not more than any other T in a debate. You more than many always reminded me of the popular type theorists, who are mostly NTP. Though I did not see these earlier "venting" posts Kyuuei mentioned. Perhaps that was under stress or something. Or the influence of NFJ's you mentioned.

Also, didn't you once wear INTP? I know you used to have the MyPersonality badge, which said "INTP", if not here, then on INTPc and/or the Spam Pudding.

As for Ne/Ni, what you had long ago said on the Pudding about Ne+Ti looking like Te made sense, and even helped me out. I'm not sure if Ne+Ti would look like Ni. Maybe a little, inasmuch as it is intuition connected with an internal "underlying framework" analysis. Sometimes, Ni and Ti sound similar. Just that one is perception and the other, decision making.

But again, a lot of INTP's do seem to have strong Ni. So to repeat, this whole thing will probably be solved by really looking at Ne and Ni and determining which is your primary perception process. Does look kind of like Ne, the way you handle the theories. Ni+Fe would be very different, and is more about the personal aspect of the theories, such as self-improvement and growth. Aux. Fe would "support" others with those things, and Ni would speak with more certainty, from what I gather.

 

[simulatedworld]

I know one INFJ with poorly developed Fe so that you mostly just see Ni/Ti and he comes off as incredibly introverted and almost entirely out of touch with the outer world.

But you could certainly be an INTP with well-developed Fe.

Do you think you are more internally or externally organized?

 

[redacted]

I know one INFJ with poorly developed Fe so that you mostly just see Ni/Ti and he comes off as incredibly introverted and almost entirely out of touch with the outer world.

But you could certainly be an INTP with well-developed Fe.

Do you think you are more internally or externally organized?

Internally by 1247849283749872397847619868976x.

 

[Orangey]

I don't know, you don't really remind me of any of the INTPs here, but you do seem more "logic" focused than most INFJs here as well. And by "logic focused" I mean focused on talking about being logical. Most of the INFJs here don't seem to have a preoccupation with such things.

 

[nightning]

You're arguing with the assumption that I'm INFJ and trying to prove INTP wrong. You should do the opposite and compare the two arguments.

What if I'm just an INTP with a heavily nurture-based Fe response?

Actually, I'm merely randomly pulling arguments in support of my "groundless" Ni pattern analysis.

This was what I've observed in people. Dominant functions cannot be turned off. Auxiliary functions can be suppressed but they're usually float about subconsciously. Tertiary usage is learned. You can be well practiced so that it becomes more or less "muscle memory" but it'll never be as quick as auxiliary. (That's assuming you haven't undergone childhood trauma etc that prevented you from developing your auxiliary.)

In your case,

Dominant- Ni (INFJ) or Ti (INTP)
too difficult to judge, you use both simultaneously.

Auxiliary- Fe (INFJ) or Ne (INTP)
Personally, I haven't seen Ne in your posts at all. It's all Ni Ti with your logic.

An exercise for you...
http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...ve-us-thought-pattern-example.html#post579745

A good indicator of Ni vs Ne in my humble opinion.

Tertiary- Ti (INFJ) or Si (INTP)
Plenty of Ti... not sure about Si. How's your memory? What sort of comments do you get from people when you're asked to reiterate to somebody about what happened at an event?

Inferior- Se (INFJ) or Fe (INTP)
Not very useful in this case I don't think. Do you get sudden urges to do something crazy (or fantasize about it)? I dunno extreme sports, global trekking what not... Or are you more likely to not know that you were angry at somebody until you recognize your actions and tone of voice suggested you were upset?

Shadow auxiliary- Fi (INFJ) or Ni (INTP)
My little pet theory about types under stress. Which function seem to plague you more?

Fi... tendency to sit and mope. Questioning self about who you are. Unable to find internal standards... feeling "not good enough".

Ni... uhhhh I'm not sure what that's suppose to be like. Probably paranoia? Mistrust of other people's intent or capabilities? *scratches head* Not something Ni dominants are overly familiar with...

 

[simulatedworld]

Internally by 1247849283749872397847619868976x.

That suggests Ji dominance, and by extension probably Pe auxiliary.

Given your apparent Ti enthusiasm, yeah, I'm going with INTP.

You never quite seemed to give the INFJ vibe to me, but I didn't have enough data to say anything.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Do you think you are more internally or externally organized?

INFJs are not often externally organized (in the sense of having all their clothes hung up, desk neat, etc) because they are focused on what's going on inside their head, not the outside world; inferior Se.

Evan, you seem INFJ to me. You have this focused intensity/tenacity that I see in certain INxJs. Even your intense focus on being logical says INxJ. Only an INFJ could have written your "A Rant About an INFJ" thread; you have typical INFJ issues. In addition to that I don't see any Ne in your posts.

 

[Moiety]

I can't actually tell if my brother is INTP or INFJ either. Function order is all over the place.


I hear you on the Ti. I tested as INTP and ENTP quite a few times because it's still a difficult divide for me at times. Logical coherence VS values coherence. In the end, I can switch off my logic slightly more easily than I can my conscience. And that's how I knew.

 

[bluebell]

INFJ is my guess. For your age, you have a much better understanding of what makes you and others tick.

Your writing style/posts/thoughts feel quite familiar to me, which is rare for me on TypoC. However, I don't think that's a good sign of you being INTP. I'm not on a particularly typical INTP path at the moment.

And as nightning says, you don't give off much of a Ne vibe (but then again, probably the same thing could be said about me).

Other reason for saying INFJ: gut feel.

 

[Eric B]

Auxiliary- Fe (INFJ) or Ne (INTP)
Personally, I haven't seen Ne in your posts at all. It's all Ni Ti with your logic.

Any examples?
Help me out, because Ni is my weakest function; still trying to fully understand it, and I sometimes have trouble picking it out in people's writing. Some people ooze with future premonitions and such, and a general style of language that seems to come with it. I just have not noticed this in Evan (and I imagine a lot of other NJ's who have not turned up the volume on the "visionary" aspect of the process). With Evan, it looked like all Ti, with some sort of abstract focus, but I associated it with Ne.

Ni... uhhhh I'm not sure what that's suppose to be like. Probably paranoia? Mistrust of other people's intent or capabilities? *scratches head* Not something Ni dominants are overly familiar with...

In 6th place "critical parent", it is supposed to be putting dampers on plans for the future with negative thoughts about how things will turn out. Elfinchilde had also added that coupled with the 7th place Se, you interpret things in a way that gives "no schrift to self". I can testify to these things.
But it can also give profound wisdom. So the question for Evan is does it play this role, or is it more "heroic", and his default mode of perception? Is Ne a "good parent", or is it "oppositional"?

 

[nightning]

Any examples?
Help me out, because Ni is my weakest function; still trying to fully understand it, and I sometimes have trouble picking it out in people's writing. Some people ooze with future premonitions and such, and a general style of language that seems to come with it. I just have not noticed this in Evan (and I imagine a lot of other NJ's who have not turned up the volume on the "visionary" aspect of the process). With Evan, it looked like all Ti, with some sort of abstract focus, but I associated it with Ne.

The division between Ni and Ne are pretty blurry for me since I use both... or rather I think I use Ni but it comes across as Ne to Ne users.

I think the major thing in separating the two is the speed of connection and depth. For most part Ne tend to work faster than Ni. If you have to wait and let the problem sink in before you get an answer, then it's likely Ni. The second is the process of making associations. Ni thinking is centered on a point of origin. There's a heavy tendency to link new associations back to the mass of previous ones. If you look at the free association sample on that thread you'll find that in general INXJs link all the words together symbolically into a whole. Not just A->B->C->D, but A->B->C->A&D->D&B. Association also tend to connect the "internal properties", alternate meanings etc with other things. Whereas Ne would rather throw the object into a new environment... examine the what if scenario under different constraints, but the object remains the object.

e.g. Apple -> tree of life -> Apple peel -> spiral continuum -> snake -> spiral staircase -> Roman church.

It'll be pretty difficult for Ne to associate an apple with the roman church short of an attempt to deface or start a protest by tossing fruits.

In 6th place "critical parent", it is supposed to be putting dampers on plans for the future with negative thoughts about how things will turn out. Elfinchilde had also added that coupled with the 7th place Se, you interpret things in a way that gives "no schrift to self". I can testify to these things.
But it can also give profound wisdom. So the question for Evan is does it play this role, or is it more "heroic", and his default mode of perception? Is Ne a "good parent", or is it "oppositional"?

*sits and waits for Evan's answer. I think that'll be enlightening.

 

[redacted]

After some thought, I'm gonna go by INTP now, and I think my enneagram type is 9 not 5.

Ne as a Ti slave I think looks like Ni for me.

 

[Economica]

Evan, you seem INFJ to me. You have this focused intensity/tenacity that I see in certain INxJs. Even your intense focus on being logical says INxJ. Only an INFJ could have written your "A Rant About an INFJ" thread; you have typical INFJ issues. In addition to that I don't see any Ne in your posts.

+1.

Ne as a Ti slave I think looks like Ni for me.

Any INTPs you'd compare yourself to on this score?

Empathy doesn't necessarily make me an F...

I'd say it's the other way around: Extraordinary logic-consciousness doesn't necessarily make you a T.

But then again, I'm probably just trippin.

I think you were more on the money back when you identified with toonia in this post:

you've basically described me. i'm extremely uncomfortable letting my emotions show (and they really don't show), and i'm pretty apathetic to any large-scale issues. i use Ti and Ni as coping mechanisms to deal with deep emotional wounds. i'm totally into logic and philosophy -- intellectualization is my #1 defense strategy, etc. but my connections to people are all about empathy. i can empathize on a small scale, but can't handle big groups very easily. pretty much every sentence in your paragraph describes me

but i have no doubt i'm INFJ with strong Ti. empathy is totally an Fe thing, and intellectualization is totally a Ti thing (Ni too).