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I am mostly doing this just for fun, I am pretty settled on my type. But impressions or comments are welcome.
SCENARIO 1
FOCUS ON YOUR FEELING PROCESS HERE
Your significant other just ended your 2 year relationship quite suddenly and with no apparent explanation. Up until this point you had both been talking about marriage and last week you even went to look at rings together. Now he/she won't even return your phone calls or texts. After talking with his/her family you find out that he/she has just been diagnosed with terminal stage 4 cancer.
- Describe how this scenario would make you feel as well as what sort of influences and motivations lie behind those feelings. Why do you feel the way you do?
I would be confused as to why my significant other would want to hide that from me, make this decision almost as if on my behalf, because it sounds like he is doing it to spare me the pain or something. I don't really prefer that in a relationship, and I hope to eventually be with someone who is honest and straightforward. Initially, because I often tend to feel like there is something wrong with me, I would get very heartbroken, sometimes even find life hard to live or go through, because this means everything to me. Without it, or with this kind of tremendous hope (after all I would be trusting him enough to want to be married to him!) shattered, I would be very depressed, life would lose color, etc...but, the situation here being that he is actually diagnosed with cancer, and it not that he doesn't love me anymore or is not into me - well, that's a different situation. I would be very heartbroken over that as well, wouldn't want to believe what I am hearing, try to put off thinking about it, spend every moment I can with him and cherish it.
- In this scenario what would you honestly say the primary focus of your feelings would be?
Well, he would be the focus for my feelings, of course.
SCENARIO 2
FOCUS ON YOUR FEELING PROCESS HERE
You are in college and this semester both you and your roommate end up in the same class together. You and your roommate get along fairly well and the living situation works but you aren't particularly close. You both typically do your own thing and are rather indifferent to each other. As the semester progresses you excel and become one of the top students in the class whereas your roommate is struggling significantly to grasp the material. The professor assigns a fairly challenging take home test that is a significant portion of your grade. He/she makes it clear that while it is open book, students are to work alone. Later your roommate comes to you begging for help after struggling with the test most of the weekend. You have already completed the assignment and he/she isn't asking to copy your answers, just to help tutor and mentor them as they struggle to complete the test, so there is no way your professor would ever know. However, this is the first time your room-mate has asked you for help this semester. He/she makes it clear that how they do on this test could mean the difference between passing and failing this class.
- How do you respond to your roommate’s request and why?
Well, the professor said you cannot work on the test; I don't mind tutoring him/her on the chapters and subjects...
- What sort of things in this scenario stand out to you as far as having a strong influence on your decision making and why?
I don't know...as long as it aligns with my personal sense of ethics I suppose. That is what I go by.
- Describe the flow of your decision making process.
This example is honestly a little boring - if you don't mind me saying! - I am having a really hard time engaging with it. I would consult my inner sense of "is it right or not" and I would act according to that. I would NOT directly or indirectly help him/her on the test, but I can go over the chapters or material in general.
SCENARIO 3
FOCUS ON YOUR LOGIC AND THINKING PROCESS HERE
Your boss calls you into his/her office in order to assign you to a new project. He/she gives you a choice between two.
Project 1 is a rather broad, expansive project covering multiple areas of company operations. It has the potential to have a very significant impact on company operations but it would require a collective effort and an extensive amount of group work where you would be logically thinking through the project together with the group of individuals your boss has also assigned to it.
Project 2 has a much more specific and narrow focus and would require a significant amount of in depth individual analysis to work through the problem. You would be working alone and the completion of the project may or may not have much impact on company operations. However, after complete the process and problem you were working on will be streamlined and fundamentally understood.
- Which project appeals to you the most, as it relates to the way you prefer to logically process information? Why?
Forgot to do this one initially. Project 2 definitely without a doubt lol. I like diving in deep into something specific, specially if I am interested in it.
- What sort of things in this scenario, across either project, stood out to you as having a strong influence on your decision? Why?
I have seen this question before actually...as for influence on my decision, I am not a "team person" and I would get bored out of my mind with Project 1, possibly. Nor am I good at things that are supposed to have an impact. I am however good at analyzing something in depth, and understanding it, given that I am passionate about it.
SCENARIO 4
FOCUS ON YOUR LOGIC AND THINKING PROCESS HERE
Your college professor has assigned you to a group project with 3 other individuals. All 3 of these individuals have a good strong work ethic and desire to contribute to the overall success of this project. You are at the first meeting of your group and the other members are tossing around valuable ideas as to the nature and direction of this project.
- Describe your behavior in this situation as you process and think about the ideas they are presenting.
I am pretty shy and don't really want to share things with strangers because I almost always get misunderstood, or may feel a little afraid that my ideas were too "out there"; but at the same time I am often bored by group members ideas and they don't tend to be creative but rather pretty standard...so basically, initially I might refrain from saying anything, but eventually once I become more comfortable, I might bring them up.
- Describe what major influences drive this behavior.
Seeking creativity, excitement, interesting things; on the other hand my shy behavior is because I am often very introverted, in my own head, and people who don't know me often don't understand me. I can also feel embarrassed, so that's one part of it.
SCENARIO 5
FOCUS ON THE SOURCES YOU DRAW NON-PHYSICAL ENERGY FROM HERE
It has been a very long week and you feel mentally and emotionally drained, but good news! It is Saturday and you have nothing significant that needs to be done. You FINALLY have some free time to yourself to recharge your batteries and do whatever you want.
- Describe what sort of activities would help you to recharge. What would you enjoy doing after a long week and why?
hmm, movies, books, looking at things that interest me, personality theory is currently one of them. Also sleeping I guess, lol, if I don't have anything significant to do.
- What sort of things do you feel you draw non-physical energy from doing?
Energy from? Things that I find interesting and exciting; but that is not the same as finding something "relaxing" (truly, I have a hard time tuning into what might "relax" me; but excite me? I can find those easily).
SCENARIO 6
FOCUS ON THINKING VS FEELING HERE
You have a meeting with your college career counselor to discuss potential careers that interest you. He/she offers you a list of the following careers and asks you to pick your TOP 3. He/she asks you to take money out of the equation. Imagine all of these careers received equal compensation. Focus instead on where you would truly feel most happy and fulfilled.
Artist, Scientist, Actor, Engineer, Musician, Lawyer, Counselor, Entrepreneur, Teacher, Manager, Psychologist, Computer Programmer / Analyst, Clergy, Child Care, Medical Doctor
- What were your top 3 choices and what aspects of these careers appeal to you?
Artist (writing) maybe, Psychologist ...I don't care quite as much about the others. I like writing because it lets me express myself and there are certain elements of it that come naturally to me, though also certain things that don't. Some teachers and professors have liked my writing, they thought there was potential there. Psychologist because I pretty much think about, and talk about psychology on a regular basis anyway.
- Was it difficult or easy to pick only 3 and why?
not really
- Prioritize the aspects of your career choices that influenced your decision, what things mattered most to you, where do you imagine finding the most fulfillment and why?
I am already on a specific career path in my life as in (don't feel like expounding right now) and I don't particularly regret it currently. I have given up on the romantic notion that you can do whatever you want with your chosen career lol.
Disclaimer:How are you doing? Are there any major life events/illnesses/other issues that might be influencing you? Did you write this in one sitting, or have you pondered these issues deeply? Give us a sense of "where you're at" right now.
I am recovering from trauma (abuse and gaslighting over 2 years) and so the post-trauma symptoms of that (changed sense of self, viewing the world as a dangerous place, nightmares, inability to trust others, constantly being 'hypervigilant' etc.) But I have made some progress. I don't want to comment further on this though, but thought it worth mentioning since you want the context. Generally speaking though, even before the trauma, I tend to be pretty sad, felt like there was something terribly wrong with me and that I could never get the only thing I wanted out of life more than anything else - a 'soulmate.' That I was ugly and repulsive inside.
(Note that some of these issues may be very personal, and if you'd prefer not to share, it's perfectly acceptable to skip questions.) ------------
0. What's making you unsure of your type? What research have you already done to determine type?
I am not unsure of my type I just like filling out Qs sometimes/going more in depth on who I am, what I care about etc...
1. Establish a "baseline mood"--when you're at home with nothing to do, where are you at mentally and emotionally? What do you notice in yourself? (Note, this is not a mood you inhabit "frequently", but your psychological baseline).
I am not sure I understand the distinction here between "baseline" and "frequently inhabit." I would say I am usually sad and/or apprehensive.
2. Describe yourself-- a. What's it like to be you? Very vague question. I have struggled in life but I don't think I have it that bad, specially when it comes to having basic resources, and the opportunity to do what I want (college. career etc.), generally supportive parents...but otherwise, I have always struggled with romantic rejection in ways that I know no one else I talked to, did. It was clear my reaction was extreme compared to how they respond. Sudden feelings of panic just because I saw my crush be interested in another girl (this was in High School; I have calmed down a little now), that I would have to go to the bathroom, would feel dizzy, cry. Having frequent episodes of this. Yeah, it was bad. Feeling like I was so repulsive inside that perhaps I should die, when I was 16 year old. Feeling shy and inhibited and scared when approaching someone I liked. Having basically no self-esteem. I don't know what the genesis of all of this is, but it's just always been like this. Waiting all day to talk to/text your crush. Terrifying feelings of abandonment, so painful that I was physically pinned to my bed, like my body were being stretched apart from the pain. Nightmares and anxiety around this. I would not have nightmares and anxiety otherwise, just around this specific trigger. Having my whole life revolve around the obsessed upon other. Not caring about school, friends, academics, grades, parents, or my health - literally nothing else at all mattered. This is what I was like as a teenager; I am 24 now, and somewhat calmer/more balanced but I am still who I am. My issues are the same, but I think I have gotten to the point where I don't feel that it is literally impossible to be attracted to me. b. What have others said about you? Hmm, "precocious," "intelligent," "shy," "sweet," but recently, also "gullible" and "innocent." And no one has literally used the word 'dramatic' but I feel like some have implied it. I think I can be seen as creative and unique as well. People usually see me in a much more positive light than I have ever seen myself in. c. What do you think of yourself? This is a work in progress I guess, haha. My self-view is somewhat changing, but I still come across as overall, sad. I don't think I am as unworthy as I used to consider myself, but I still have a hard time believing that I am good enough.
3. What are the issues you've dealt with in life? List some recurrent themes, and tell us a little about each one. I think I answered this one with 2a.
4. You're not good at everything--
a. What personality traits and/or ways of being are impossible for you to adopt? Assertive, aggressive, being able to protect yourself from pushy or over-aggressive people, manipulating people on purpose, being cruel on purpose. b. What are qualities you'd like to have, but can't seem to develop? Being assertive at the very least but not aggressive, my ability/talent for anything I have - I want to realize that, I very much admire healthy 4s. I like the idea of someone who can simply appreciate and be authentic, and see the beauty in that without any pretense getting in the way. It's honest, brave, insightful. Also intelligent.
5. Why have you left friends and other relationships in the past and/or why have they left you? I guess I was too emotional and they could not deal with it. My wounds are pretty deep, most people have a hard time being able to "take it" (as in take the kind of pain I often end up in and the accompanying intensity). But then, the majority of those people were teenagers. I wonder if people become more capable of 'being able to take it' with age perhaps.
As for why I might cut off people, sometimes I have because I was in too much pain. Only other thing I can think of is that if I don't approve of their character, I might cut them out.
6. Which types do you identify with most? a. How do you relate to these types? 4,9,6,5, a little 2. I don't mean to say "I am all these types" and relate very well and totally to type 4, but other types also play (even though minor) role. I relate to 4 because my identity has literally been rooted and entrenched in "there is something horribly ugly/undesirable/repulsive about me," and that has not changed. I have managed to subdue it and not make it so severe anymore, after a decade of going through this, but at the heart it is still the same thing. I am very emotional and tend to react pretty emotionally to things that do matter to me. 9 because I can see myself as nice and easygoing and sometimes I have difficulty saying no to someone, even though I really don't care or am not interested. I don't want to get into conflicts, and if I do disagree I try to do it more gently (unless I were angry, but even then I don't 'denigrate' the other person, ever). 6 because I seek other people for reassurance A LOT, have difficulty trusting my own judgement and am always bouncing my thinking off of others. 5 because I am actually not as authority oriented as many 6s, I don't feel the need for that, and I rather admire and enjoy people who bring something new to the table, something of their own thinking instead of regurgitating established ideas. I also tend to "replace emotional experiences with intellectual concepts" pretty regularly. I may have a slightly 'technical/clinical' way of presenting things sometimes. 2 because I also want to be loved, and relate to submission/innocence theme for 2 (though I must say I don't think it's that much of an image thing for me necessarily, as in it is not on purpose/contrived. I naturally come across as "innocent." I didn't even realize it until I started reflecting on the way people see me/respond to me; but I relate to the childlike-ness of 2, and also clinginess). b. How do you NOT relate to them?
I am not uber image focused as 4s (perhaps 4w3s) are often portrayed to be. But that doesn't mean I am not an image type. I am not as "non-type type" as 9 descriptions often sound, and am very acutely aware of who I am, what I am about, and I continuously assert this fact even in daily life or conversations. Doesn't have to be direct like "I am X therefore I cannot do this!" per se, but my actions tend to reflect strongly who I think I am and won't back down or compromise. I am not as authority seeking and dependent as 6; neither do I have a general anxiety issues, I have specific triggers that cause me anxiety. I am not as withdrawn as 5, and not afraid of engulfment; on the contrary, I can become quite clingy, or feel the urge to, when I am in a negative loop. I do not aim to flatter people as 2s might, I don't need to be needed, and my "innocence" is not necessarily born out of wanting to look that way.
7. Which types are least like you? 7,8,3,1
a. Why specifically do you not relate to these types? I am not as "happiness oriented" as 7s and rather tend to dwell on what's wrong. I am the opposite of type 8 lol. I am not achievement oriented, not competitive, and don't care much about "shining in the eyes of others" or becoming that desperate about appearing successful. I can rather lack ambition at times. I don't connect with the moralizing nature of 1, and and more relaxed than them. Things that bother them don't really bother me.
b. What points (if any) DO you relate to? Eh...I am getting a little tired here, haha.
8. They claim enneagram type is a hidden love need. What are your attitudes toward finding love? I hope to find it eventually. I have a very detailed/highly pixelated idea of what 'he' would be like, and what it would be like to be with him.
9. What is the message your superego tells you? uhhh superego...hmm. I think my internal message is almost always "you are not good enough" but I don't think that's my superego. That's probably more so my ego. Well, I don't like being cruel to people - I guess maybe that counts as a superego message? This one is a little difficult to answer. I don't think I have 'super-ego hang-ups' or uptightness around super-ego messages, all that much. At least as far as I can tell.
Consider a time when you felt poorly about yourself--this means your ego (i.e. YOU) is receiving negative feedback from your superego. Write a conversation between the two of them--what is your superego telling you about how to be? (Note: this obviously is very personal and may be better done privately. Report your findings).
Again, I don't know if this would count as a super-ego and ego conversation but here we go...
A: He cannot possibly be into you; he didn't respond with anything revealing himself when you revealed X about yourself.
B: Do you mean he is not into me?
A: He isn't, no one ever is, and no one ever will be. There is something repulsive in your core, every time you make yourself naked, they are not drawn to you, instead they are repulsed by you.
B: *panics* I am afraid I will be abandoned again, but perhaps I will be, I never have been good enough. *Becomes dejected and sad, sometimes nightmares*
Hmm I am not sure how good of a job I did there following what the instructions asked of me lol, but hope that is useful.
For the following, rank the issues in the order they apply and give a brief description of why and how you relate.
10. Determine your ego ideal--the way you strive to be and want others to perceive you. (Note, you may be consciously aware of failing at this, and you will be hard on yourself if you do. If someone else tells you you're NOT this way, it may make you feel hurt, violated, or angry.)
Which of the following ideals resonate with you the most, and why? Rank them.
- to be "okay", having it together 5
- to be devoted and loyal to a person or cause
- to be sensitive, original, unique, and creative 1
- to be knowlegeable 4
- to be powerful, strong, unassailable.
- to be accomplished and successful
- to strive to become/behave like a good person 3
- to be a loveable person
- to be loving and benevolent 2
#1 rank choice for me is a duh, I have always looked up to healthy 4s. I want to be genuine, creative, be the best that I can be, no sign of any pretense, being able to see the ugly as well as the beautiful, being able to share that, authenticity raw and unadulterated with "fluff" or over-dramatization.
#2 because I do believe that pretty strongly as well. I prefer kindness and compassion over any sort of vengeance and cruelty.
#3 is related to #2.
#4 because I do value knowledge and want to supply my ideal state of wanting to be authentic, also with intelligence and knowledge. I value wisdom.
#5 because even though I have neglected "having it together" all my life, I can see value in getting to a point where you are healthy and no longer constantly in pain, and can enjoy life. Otherwise, it's kind of like life wasted, if you weren't even able to enjoy it.
11. Determine your "felt sense" of life. To do this it may help to look at how you perceive events. Another way to do this is to look back at your childhood and think of all the things your parents did to you. How did you/do you feel about these events?
Here are some common "felt senses" of life: - I must do everything to maintain my world
- I have a sense of being unimportant, insignificant, and undeserving of attention
- I feel imperfect, not (good) enough
- I have been abandoned and I am inherently flawed
- I'm outside the natural unfoldment of things
- People have wronged and messed with me
- I feel isolated, cut off, and ultimately separate
- I have felt weak and/or vulnerable to attack
- I've had a sense of being rejectible
I have avoidant attachment with my parents, even as a child, and I am not emotionally close to them all that much. I have always been pretty distant and feel "repulsion" if they show affection, or try to get close to me. Not repulsion in the sense of hatred, but it's just...I don't know, awkward, weird. Like a random stranger wanting to be very close to you and telling you how much they love you...I prefer the distance. I am not entirely sure what you mean by a "felt sense," but as should be apparent if you have already read through my previous answers, I have always had this sense of being ugly/repulsive internally, and assumed that I would never be good enough and will be abandoned. So a "felt sense" of sadness, I suppose, permeates my life. I do somewhat relate to "I have a sense of being unimportant, insignificant, and undeserving of attention," but it is less so about attention per se, but more of a deeper, need for attachment, closeness, intimacy. I feel that I am undeserving of that. I do feel "imperfect, not good enough." People have wronged me; the recent abuse I suffered is legitimate, so currently what I feel is in context of that. Otherwise, I can feel "wronged" by abandonment, and by someone not caring about how I feel. I have felt weak and/or vulnerable, but again, that's due to trauma, and I don't think I used to think that before. My viewpoint was more that someone like me would not even be allowed to be harmed and it's probably not going to happen/ people are good. I have had a sense of not being good enough and feeling rejected.
12. Core fears. You may have been aware of these fears even as a very small child, before anyone did anything to influence it. You'd be mortified to be in this position or have others perceive you this way.
Discuss which fears have played the greatest role in your life:
- Creating conflict by making myself or my needs too obvious
- Rejection, being needy, and not being loved
- Weak and not being on top of things
- Failure
- Being abandoned, sadness, feeling lost
- Entanglements and losing what I have - Something is basically wrong with me--I'm not good enough
- Boredom, grunt work, and being exposed as a charlatan
- A lot--everything and everyone to one degree or another. It's very generalized.
I will just bold for this one, since this has been very long already haha. I am feeling a little tired. But, I think it was a good questionnaire.
Regarding the other questionnaire, first I'd like to give you a giant hug. I can relate so much to some of what you said, especially about feeling not good enough, fearing abandonment, and that sort of thing. You being an sx dom is incredibly clear. It can be such complete hell, especially when I was young and didn't realize others didn't approach things in a similar way to me.
I can definitely see why you type as 4 core, and I see 9 also. Adding Fi into the mix, with sx, and I think it gets difficult to see what goes where... sx as dominant function, I think does seem 4 like. It could be possible for you to be 946 perhaps... But I'm still going over 4 and 9 and 6 in my mind.
More hugs. What you are is beautiful, and you most certainly deserve the kind of love you want. Your intensity is probably intimidating. (I've had people tell me I'm intimidating-people who I wouldn't have guessed would feel that way.) You are not repulsive. You are full of passion and art and feeling and pain. There are probably many who are afraid they'd be boring to you, or disappointing in that they aren't as intense. Try to love yourself the way you will love that special person in the future.
I have probably included most of this information in my posts on this forum...haha. But I will post a video here just for time being. I will be taking it down later, so if you want to watch it, I would take a look at it now. It is 30 mins long and I don't expect anyone to watch all the way. But if you needed more data for typing, well here it is.
This is so painfully INFP that it hurts. It hurts. XD No reason to doubt it at all.
I think your trauma is editing my view of your tritype though - several of the things you say sound 8ish, but I also acknowledge a lot of the 8 vibes are coming from a bitter place. Your fears sound more 2 than 4.
I think it is important to remember we have types we admire, love, etc. but we may not be that type. We may inherit certain things of the type, but not be it. You can enjoy creativity and originality and be an INTJ 5w6.
Sx 4 tends to look 8ish, so I also feel possibly it may be the Sx 4 there. I contemplate possibly 8w9/9w8 but I also heard some of E1s fears expressing in you. I would say 6w5 for headtype. I don't see a lick of 7 in you at the moment.
This is so painfully INFP that it hurts. It hurts. XD No reason to doubt it at all.
I think your trauma is editing my view of your tritype though - several of the things you say sound 8ish, but I also acknowledge a lot of the 8 vibes are coming from a bitter place. Your fears sound more 2 than 4.
Altering your view? You don’t agree with 469...?
8? I am not at all 8, haha. Do you mind explaining where you are seeing the 8...?
As for 2 vs. 4, I personally think the “core fears†are reflected in the individual themselves, their actions, their motivations. Someone who “want to be loved,†is not automatically a 2, and someone “who wants to be unique,†is not automatically a 4. These are extremely entrenched and unconscious.
I think it is important to remember we have types we admire, love, etc. but we may not be that type. We may inherit certain things of the type, but not be it. You can enjoy creativity and originality and be an INTJ 5w6.
I completely disagree with this one, as I have yet to see sx 4s actually look like this. Seems like a piece of information taken from Naranjo’s description (which @Luminous said he apparently has changed his mind about) and regurgitated again and again.
I have been exploring the enneagram for a while now...
My friend, who was sx4 469, she was not like this at all. I had gotten to know her for a while
Another friend who is ALSO sx4 and 469 (lol), she is not like this either.
Someone else who types sx4, nope he didn’t agree with the description
There is a YouTuber (Carolyn Zaikowski) who has said she related to sx very much and she is also a 4... I am not getting “ruthless competitive†or sx8-ish vibe from her as far as I could tell.
I would simply claim maybe I’m the outlier but I don’t even know how accurate that description is to begin with...most sx4s I have come across are not like this.
so I also feel possibly it may be the Sx 4 there. I contemplate possibly 8w9/9w8 but I also heard some of E1s fears expressing in you. I would say 6w5 for headtype. I don't see a lick of 7 in you at the moment.
I read wisdom of enneagram, and it draws some different thoughts on certain types for me.
The gut triad is sort of the *anger* triad in a sense - its a lot about how someone handles their emotion.
Enneagram 1 tends to repress it, as they feel it is bad or negative, but they brood on it and begrudge. The central fear of the one is that they are not a good person, they are actually the problem, that their logic is flawed and truth as they know it is a lie. To deal with this they tend to overcompensate by being self-righteous at times about their views, repressing emotions till it sometimes pops like a cannon, or following every rule to a T.
Enneagram 8 is can be sort of blunt force trauma. Most look at it that way from descriptions of 8 with a 7 wing. It comes off harsh, ruthless, and boundaryless. 8w9 is a more tempered form. 9 is anti-conflict so it tempers some of the 8 heat. I could see 9w8 because it is a sort of quiet temper.
Part of this is the fact while you are quiet, even in some of your reply to me, you have an assertive undertone. 469 is not anywhere near assertive. It makes me think somewhere you have something a little assertive in a wing or a fix. Another scenario is I am possibly seeing some of your disintegrated E2 fix - when E2 disintegrates, it becomes 8.
I'm gonna go through your answers. BOLD will be 8ish. ITALICS will be 1ish.
Your significant other just ended your 2 year relationship quite suddenly and with no apparent explanation. Up until this point you had both been talking about marriage and last week you even went to look at rings together. Now he/she won't even return your phone calls or texts. After talking with his/her family you find out that he/she has just been diagnosed with terminal stage 4 cancer.
- Describe how this scenario would make you feel as well as what sort of influences and motivations lie behind those feelings. Why do you feel the way you do?
I would be confused as to why my significant other would want to hide that from me, make this decision almost as if on my behalf, because it sounds like he is doing it to spare me the pain or something. I don't really prefer that in a relationship, and I hope to eventually be with someone who is honest and straightforward. Initially, because I often tend to feel like there is something wrong with me, I would get very heartbroken, sometimes even find life hard to live or go through, because this means everything to me. (I agree this could also be E4, but E1 actually disintegrates into 4, displaying its self-loathing traits. A 4 is actually more concerned with whether or not they stand out, rather than whether or not they are good enough or defective.) Without it, or with this kind of tremendous hope (after all I would be trusting him enough to want to be married to him!) shattered, I would be very depressed, life would lose color, etc...but, the situation here being that he is actually diagnosed with cancer, and it not that he doesn't love me anymore or is not into me - well, that's a different situation. I would be very heartbroken over that as well, wouldn't want to believe what I am hearing, try to put off thinking about it, spend every moment I can with him and cherish it.
- In this scenario what would you honestly say the primary focus of your feelings would be?
Well, he would be the focus for my feelings, of course.
SCENARIO 2
FOCUS ON YOUR FEELING PROCESS HERE
You are in college and this semester both you and your roommate end up in the same class together. You and your roommate get along fairly well and the living situation works but you aren't particularly close. You both typically do your own thing and are rather indifferent to each other. As the semester progresses you excel and become one of the top students in the class whereas your roommate is struggling significantly to grasp the material. The professor assigns a fairly challenging take home test that is a significant portion of your grade. He/she makes it clear that while it is open book, students are to work alone. Later your roommate comes to you begging for help after struggling with the test most of the weekend. You have already completed the assignment and he/she isn't asking to copy your answers, just to help tutor and mentor them as they struggle to complete the test, so there is no way your professor would ever know. However, this is the first time your room-mate has asked you for help this semester. He/she makes it clear that how they do on this test could mean the difference between passing and failing this class.
- How do you respond to your roommate’s request and why?
Well, the professor said you cannot work on the test; I don't mind tutoring him/her on the chapters and subjects...
- What sort of things in this scenario stand out to you as far as having a strong influence on your decision making and why?
I don't know...as long as it aligns with my personal sense of ethics I suppose. That is what I go by. both these shows the E1 desire to abide by the rules and codes, but also the E1s strong inner moral code. There's a lot of people who say you cannot be an E1 P and I just want to clarifiy I find it BS. XD
- Describe the flow of your decision making process.
- I am having a really hard time engaging with it. I would consult my inner sense of "is it right or not" and I would act according to that. I would NOT directly or indirectly help him/her on the test, but I can go over the chapters or material in general.
SCENARIO 3
FOCUS ON YOUR LOGIC AND THINKING PROCESS HERE
Your boss calls you into his/her office in order to assign you to a new project. He/she gives you a choice between two.
Project 1 is a rather broad, expansive project covering multiple areas of company operations. It has the potential to have a very significant impact on company operations but it would require a collective effort and an extensive amount of group work where you would be logically thinking through the project together with the group of individuals your boss has also assigned to it.
Project 2 has a much more specific and narrow focus and would require a significant amount of in depth individual analysis to work through the problem. You would be working alone and the completion of the project may or may not have much impact on company operations. However, after complete the process and problem you were working on will be streamlined and fundamentally understood.
- Which project appeals to you the most, as it relates to the way you prefer to logically process information? Why?
Forgot to do this one initially. Project 2 definitely without a doubt lol. I like diving in deep into something specific, specially if I am interested in it.
- What sort of things in this scenario, across either project, stood out to you as having a strong influence on your decision? Why?
I have seen this question before actually...as for influence on my decision, I am not a "team person" and I would get bored out of my mind with Project 1, possibly. Nor am I good at things that are supposed to have an impact. I am however good at analyzing something in depth, and understanding it, given that I am passionate about it.
where I saw more of the 8 is the enneagram questionnaire so gonna go through it.
. What's it like to be you? Very vague question. I have struggled in life but I don't think I have it that bad, specially when it comes to having basic resources, and the opportunity to do what I want (college. career etc.), generally supportive parents...but otherwise, I have always struggled with romantic rejection in ways that I know no one else I talked to, did. It was clear my reaction was extreme compared to how they respond. Sudden feelings of panic just because I saw my crush be interested in another girl (this was in High School; I have calmed down a little now), that I would have to go to the bathroom, would feel dizzy, cry. Having frequent episodes of this. Yeah, it was bad. Feeling like I was so repulsive inside that perhaps I should die, when I was 16 year old. Feeling shy and inhibited and scared when approaching someone I liked. Having basically no self-esteem. I don't know what the genesis of all of this is, but it's just always been like this. Waiting all day to talk to/text your crush. Terrifying feelings of abandonment, so painful that I was physically pinned to my bed, like my body were being stretched apart from the pain. Nightmares and anxiety around this. I would not have nightmares and anxiety otherwise, just around this specific trigger. Having my whole life revolve around the obsessed upon other. Not caring about school, friends, academics, grades, parents, or my health - literally nothing else at all mattered. This is what I was like as a teenager; I am 24 now, and somewhat calmer/more balanced but I am still who I am. My issues are the same, but I think I have gotten to the point where I don't feel that it is literally impossible to be attracted to me.
b. What have others said about you? Hmm, "precocious," "intelligent," "shy," "sweet," but recently, also "gullible" and "innocent." And no one has literally used the word 'dramatic' but I feel like some have implied it. I think I can be seen as creative and unique as well. People usually see me in a much more positive light than I have ever seen myself in.
c. What do you think of yourself? This is a work in progress I guess, haha. My self-view is somewhat changing, but I still come across as overall, sad. I don't think I am as unworthy as I used to consider myself, but I still have a hard time believing that I am good enough.
a. What personality traits and/or ways of being are impossible for you to adopt? Assertive (I disagree with this, assertive doesn't mean aggressive or harsh. I think you are a soft assertive), aggressive, being able to protect yourself from pushy or over-aggressive people, manipulating people on purpose, being cruel on purpose.
b. What are qualities you'd like to have, but can't seem to develop? Being assertive at the very least but not aggressive, my ability/talent for anything I have - I want to realize that, I very much admire healthy 4s. I like the idea of someone who can simply appreciate and be authentic, and see the beauty in that without any pretense getting in the way. It's honest, brave, insightful. Also intelligent.
5. Why have you left friends and other relationships in the past and/or why have they left you? I guess I was too emotional and they could not deal with it. My wounds are pretty deep, most people have a hard time being able to "take it" (as in take the kind of pain I often end up in and the accompanying intensity). But then, the majority of those people were teenagers. I wonder if people become more capable of 'being able to take it' with age perhaps.
As for why I might cut off people, sometimes I have because I was in too much pain. Only other thing I can think of is that if I don't approve of their character, I might cut them out.
So the thing about 8s is they absolutely HATE HATE HATE being vulnerable. and while you didn't despise this sense, saying you cut people off from being in too much pain may not be type related, but it could also be the 8s underlying fear of someone abusing their fragile states, a need to always be strong as the 8s put it. 8 is not always aggressive and in your face - sometimes 8 is that girl going through hell putting on a brave face so no one can hurt them anymore than they already are. The fact also cutting people off out of their character, that is a gut triad thing in 8 or 1. they feel strongly about things they believe in or people they like and if someone negatively affects that, they will be chopped off.
a. How do you relate to these types? 4,9,6,5, a little 2. I don't mean to say "I am all these types" and relate very well and totally to type 4, but other types also play (even though minor) role. I relate to 4 because my identity has literally been rooted and entrenched in "there is something horribly ugly/undesirable/repulsive about me," and that has not changed. I want to highlight this one. This feeling can exist in several types for different reasons at different times. This does appear an image type feeling. However, relating to the negatives of 4 could mean you are the disintegration of a 1. If you are a type, you cannot just inherit their good or bad qualities solely. I think your questionnaire shows a little more two than you are perhaps aware of as well. I see more of the neutal aspects of 2 in you than I see neutral aspects of 4. You can love artistic things and originality without being a 4. If you were a 4, you'd actually be harboring more of the E1 negative traits since a disintegrated 4 goes to 1. You'd start becoming overly self-righteous and uncompromising in a stressed state. The thing that makes 4 what it is, is the 4 isn't going to be completely open about their issues with feeling defective. A 4 is going to come in your face and say they love their solitude, their situation, because they are unique and original. While alone they feel cut off, they overcompensate by feeling overly empowered by their artistic isolation. The neutral of 4 is a state of uncaring whether or not they're in the group, but intensely focused on whether or not they stand out, since that is their goal since they are already "separate." They're in some ways sort of looking to be saved, to find their kin which side with them on the originality. at the same time they despise it, because they won't be special anymore. You do not sound like that to me.
I have managed to subdue it and not make it so severe anymore, after a decade of going through this, but at the heart it is still the same thing. I am very emotional and tend to react pretty emotionally to things that do matter to me. This sounds more gut triad than heart triad reaction. Gut is about emotional impulse, image is about something effecting the way people perceive them. For instance, sometimes if I type a 4 as something other than their unique chosen type, they will actually get mad at me since I alter them "knowing themselves" moreless. A gut type (I am a core gut type, I know bout this shit. ) react on emotionally driven impulses, usually about things or causes they are passionate about. The E1 is often called the crusader for this point. E8s with their assertion always stand strongly by their values and belief systems. 9 because I can see myself as nice and easygoing and sometimes I have difficulty saying no to someone, even though I really don't care or am not interested. Hi this is actually E2. E9 is about merging, being part of the whole, going with the flow. Honestly, E9 can't be bothered. Their whole problem is inertia. If you offer to do something, they say yes because they just don't really feel any which way about it. E2 will say yes even if they know they aren't fond of it because they have problems saying no. I don't want to get into conflicts, and if I do disagree I try to do it more gently (unless I were angry, but even then I don't 'denigrate' the other person, ever). E2 is conflict avoidant. E9 is conflict avoidant. Actually, since E4 is reactive, E4 is more likely to get into a fight. E1 can be conflict avoidant at times. E8 is assertive and therefore not as avoidant either. Hence I say 9w8 or 8w9. Something is tempering the heat of the reaction. I can tell you a wing 5 won't temper it. Nor a wing 3.
6 because I seek other people for reassurance A LOT, have difficulty trusting my own judgement and am always bouncing my thinking off of others. 5 because I am actually not as authority oriented as many 6s, I don't feel the need for that, and I rather admire and enjoy people who bring something new to the table, something of their own thinking instead of regurgitating established ideas. I also tend to "replace emotional experiences with intellectual concepts" pretty regularly. I may have a slightly 'technical/clinical' way of presenting things sometimes. 2 because I also want to be loved, and relate to submission/innocence theme for 2 (though I must say I don't think it's that much of an image thing for me necessarily, as in it is not on purpose/contrived. I naturally come across as "innocent." I didn't even realize it until I started reflecting on the way people see me/respond to me; but I relate to the childlike-ness of 2, and also clinginess).
b. How do you NOT relate to them?
I am not uber image focused as 4s (perhaps 4w3s) are often portrayed to be. But that doesn't mean I am not an image type. I am not as "non-type type" as 9 descriptions often sound, and am very acutely aware of who I am, what I am about, and I continuously assert this fact even in daily life or conversations. Doesn't have to be direct like "I am X therefore I cannot do this!" per se, but my actions tend to reflect strongly who I think I am and won't back down or compromise. this is as assertive as all fuck here.
I am not as authority seeking and dependent as 6; neither do I have a general anxiety issues, I have specific triggers that cause me anxiety. I am not as withdrawn as 5, and not afraid of engulfment; on the contrary, I can become quite clingy, or feel the urge to, when I am in a negative loop. I do not aim to flatter people as 2s might, I don't need to be needed, and my "innocence" is not necessarily born out of wanting to look that way.
7. Which types are least like you? 7,8,3,1
a. Why specifically do you not relate to these types? I am not as "happiness oriented" as 7s and rather tend to dwell on what's wrong. Just clarifying some on E7. Most descriptions of E7 center on a 7w8 or an Se type of 7. 7 presents itself in different ways for different types. I do not personally see seven in you, but I do want to clarify using any activity or passion as an escapism from facing the things that trouble you is a 7 trait. I am the opposite of type 8 lol. I am not achievement oriented, not competitive, and don't care much about "shining in the eyes of others" or becoming that desperate about appearing successful. I can rather lack ambition at times. I don't connect with the moralizing nature of 1, and and more relaxed than them. Things that bother them don't really bother me. You just described an E8 as an E3. E3 is the one who is so success and achievement oriented in their competition, wanting to shine in the eyes of others. E8s don't actually give two fucks if they shine in the eyes of you, they are strongly independent and HATE worrying about that actually. E8 fears being vulnerable, and while I think types display it differently, usually E8 is more heavily focused on getting themselves in an independent situation where they do not have to rely on anyone. THAT is their ultimate goal. Counterphobic 6 can come off 8ish for this exact reason. There are no set in stone things for what should bother and E8 or E1, it just is based on their views and passions. but yes, E8 does not care what you think. E8 is also hard to crack open personally, but once they trust in you, they are extremely loyal and will defend the people they love very closely. E8 gets misunderstood and a bad wrap a lot.
b. What points (if any) DO you relate to? Eh...I am getting a little tired here, haha.
8. They claim enneagram type is a hidden love need. What are your attitudes toward finding love? I hope to find it eventually. I have a very detailed/highly pixelated idea of what 'he' would be like, and what it would be like to be with him.
9. What is the message your superego tells you? uhhh superego...hmm. I think my internal message is almost always "you are not good enough" but I don't think that's my superego. That's probably more so my ego. Well, I don't like being cruel to people - I guess maybe that counts as a superego message? This one is a little difficult to answer. I don't think I have 'super-ego hang-ups' or uptightness around super-ego messages, all that much. At least as far as I can tell.
Consider a time when you felt poorly about yourself--this means your ego (i.e. YOU) is receiving negative feedback from your superego. Write a conversation between the two of them--what is your superego telling you about how to be? (Note: this obviously is very personal and may be better done privately. Report your findings).
Again, I don't know if this would count as a super-ego and ego conversation but here we go...
A: He cannot possibly be into you; he didn't respond with anything revealing himself when you revealed X about yourself.
B: Do you mean he is not into me?
A: He isn't, no one ever is, and no one ever will be. There is something repulsive in your core, every time you make yourself naked, they are not drawn to you, instead they are repulsed by you.
B: *panics* I am afraid I will be abandoned again(fear of abandonment is a root of E2), but perhaps I will be, I never have been good enough. *Becomes dejected and sad, sometimes nightmares*
Hmm I am not sure how good of a job I did there following what the instructions asked of me lol, but hope that is useful.
I have avoidant attachment with my parents, even as a child, and I am not emotionally close to them all that much. I have always been pretty distant and feel "repulsion" if they show affection, or try to get close to me. Not repulsion in the sense of hatred, but it's just...I don't know, awkward, weird. Like a random stranger wanting to be very close to you and telling you how much they love you...I prefer the distance. E8s tend to struggle to get to or feel close to people because they dislike the vulnerability of it, without realizing it.
I am not entirely sure what you mean by a "felt sense," but as should be apparent if you have already read through my previous answers, I have always had this sense of being ugly/repulsive internally, and assumed that I would never be good enough and will be abandoned. So a "felt sense" of sadness, I suppose, permeates my life. I do somewhat relate to "I have a sense of being unimportant, insignificant, and undeserving of attention," but it is less so about attention per se, but more of a deeper, need for attachment, closeness, intimacy. I feel that I am undeserving of that. I do feel "imperfect, not good enough." People have wronged me; the recent abuse I suffered is legitimate, so currently what I feel is in context of that. Otherwise, I can feel "wronged" by abandonment, and by someone not caring about how I feel. I have felt weak and/or vulnerable, but again, that's due to trauma, and I don't think I used to think that before. My viewpoint was more that someone like me would not even be allowed to be harmed and it's probably not going to happen/ people are good. I have had a sense of not being good enough and feeling rejected.
I hope the dissection helps you visualize what I saw. XD
In the Sexual Four subtype, the inner motivation is envy, and its manifestation as competition. These Fours don't feel consciously envious so much as they feel competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against another person they perceive as having more than they do and win, they can feel better about themselves.
Sexual Fours believe it's good to be the best. Most people want to present a good image to others, but Sexual Fours don't care very much about image management or being liked. For them, it's better to be superior. They are highly competitive, and their intense focus on competition takes the form of actively striving to show that they are the best.
People with this subtype tend to have an “all or nothing†belief related to success: if success is not all theirs, they are left with nothing. This pattern leads to excesses related to their efforts to achieve success, and it also generates feelings of hate.
Sexual Fours are usually arrogant, despite having an underlying sense of inferiority. In the face of the pain of feeling misunderstood, an arrogant attitude is adopted as overcompensation- a means of being recognized. These Fours like being part of “chosen†group, and they can be very elitist. They may refuse to feel indebted to anyone, and they may have the sense that they have the exclusive right to feel offended by the lack of consideration of others. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.
Envious anger dominates the expression of this subtype's unconscious instinctual impulses. Sexual Fours' deeper instinctual motivation is about a refusal to suffer the pain brought about by envy, and a need to reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others' accomplishments in comparison with their own.
Sexual Fours “make others suffer†because they feel that they have been made to suffer and so need some sort of compensation. They may seek to hurt or punish others as an unconscious way of repudiating or minimizing their own pain.
per say the sexual 4 turns its inner pain outward onto other people. I do not see that in you AT ALL. However, I just mentioned Sx 4 is often mistaken for 8, 3, or even Sx 2 according to things like this. So I was making a point to it. Hence I said I could be taking your Sx 4 as being 8.
Well, I can see where you are coming from, concerning the emotionality of the gut type. I have actually noticed that my brother is, at the core, also driven by a lot of hurt and emotion, despite being E8. Though he does have a very strong 3 influence as well. But I think my concerns are in line with image type, in that I am concerned about love, shame, "am I good enough," and other image issues.
Enneagram 1 tends to repress it, as they feel it is bad or negative, but they brood on it and begrudge. The central fear of the one is that they are not a good person, they are actually the problem, that their logic is flawed and truth as they know it is a lie. To deal with this they tend to overcompensate by being self-righteous at times about their views, repressing emotions till it sometimes pops like a cannon, or following every rule to a T.
I think you are correct about 1, but I don't relate to it.
Ones are conscientious and ethical, with a strong sense of right and wrong. They are teachers, crusaders, and advocates for change: always striving to improve things, but afraid of making a mistake. Well-organized, orderly, and fastidious, they try to maintain high standards, but can slip into being critical and perfectionistic. They typically have problems with resentment and impatience. At their Best: wise, discerning, realistic, and noble. Can be morally heroic.
Basic Fear: Of being corrupt/evil, defective
Basic Desire: To be good, to have integrity, to be balanced
I am not: conscientious, a teacher, a crusader, or "afraid of making a mistake." I am also not "well organized, orderly, fastidious, or slip into being perfectionistic." My main issues are not with "resentment and impatience."
Going back to your description of 1, I am not these things either: I don't "brood on my anger"; maybe I "begrude" but only in the sense that it literally takes me a year or more to realize I was even irritated or annoyed by something all this time...and then suddenly I am aware of this. I think this is more in line with type 9, falling asleep to your anger...
I do not attempt to "correct others," or even myself for that matter, I am easy-going and laid-back compared to 1 (since we are talking about gut fix, and I do think mine is 9...). I am not bothered by "whether or not my logic is flawed," frankly that has never even occurred to me haha, and I most definitely not bothered by the idea that "truth as I know it, is a lie." I am not even entirely sure what "truth" here is referring to, since there can be so many different views on it...I don't repress my emotions either, I am highly aware of them. I don't really care about "following rules to a T." As I had mentioned earlier though, I am just not 1-ish enough to have it even in my tritype, haha.
I am just not like this at all...did you get a chance to look at my video? I will re-post it here if you haven't. It might give you more of an idea or context of what I am like.
Removed.
Most look at it that way from descriptions of 8 with a 7 wing. It comes off harsh, ruthless, and boundaryless. 8w9 is a more tempered form. 9 is anti-conflict so it tempers some of the 8 heat. I could see 9w8 because it is a sort of quiet temper.
Part of this is the fact while you are quiet, even in some of your reply to me, you have an assertive undertone. 469 is not anywhere near assertive. It makes me think somewhere you have something a little assertive in a wing or a fix.
Hmm, I think you are neglecting the fact that 469 has two reactive types in it. On top of that, I am sx dominant.
People whose dominant Harmonic approach is the reactive approach are emotionally reactive under stress. They tend to work themselves up when a problem happens and have a hard time containing their feelings. This emotional intensity allows them to feel the "realness" of the problem, even if it is a relatively small one. Venting their frustration allows them to move on to dealing with the issue. Wanting others to see the realness of the problem, they expect others to react emotionally. Such a reaction would confirm that others agree that indeed this is a big deal. If others don't respond in the way the Reactive approach types want, they may become even more frustrated and emotional.
The Reactive approach is not naturally trusting of others. They have strong opinions and tastes and want to know where others stand.
Their desire for a strong emotional response from others may be a test of trust.
I agree with the whole thing completely (except I think I am slightly more trusting, perhaps owing to the 9 influence).
It seems like you might be attributing reactivity in general with 8, which as the description points out, need not always be the case. There are three reactive types: 4, 6, and 8. And I do have two of them in my tritype, and am core reactive.
Another scenario is I am possibly seeing some of your disintegrated E2 fix - when E2 disintegrates, it becomes 8.
I could go over 2 vs. 4 if you like:
My comments are in red.
Twos and Fours can be confused primarily because they are both Feeling types, and because they both put great emphasis on the ups and downs of their personal relationships. Even with these similarities, however, these two types are seldom mistaken for each other. When they are, it is usually because they are defining the types too narrowly. For instance, some Twos might mistype themselves as Fours if they have been through a depression or have recently been through the end of an important relationship. This is not why I am typing at 4. I personally resonate with it on a very, very deep level and I always have. It was not easy for me to see the 4-ish tendencies at first, but I am not ingratiating or flattering as 2s are; I rather have had issues with people primarily because I refuse to change who I am. It's more so "I am this ugly thing and this is what I am so I guess you could take it as it is or you could reject me"...I just couldn't change, no matter what, even at the price of my own happiness. Mind you I don't necessarily say what is in quotes in the last sentence, it's more so that I feel it, and behave that way. I think it's the difference between the assertive wing (3) and withdrawn wing (5). They may learn that Fours are a depressive type and deduce that since they have been depressed that they are probably Fours. In fact, all nine types can be depressed: feeling sad or alienated in itself is not an indication of being any particular type. My depression didn't even register as being "that bad" despite being professionally diagnosed with it, because I had other issues that were way more overwhelming. I have seen people become almost catatonic, saying they just don't feel much anymore, and though I have been there at times, this is not my primary state. So no, I didn't type at 4 because I have been sad and depressed. Twos may also hear that Fours are romantic, and seeing themselves as romantic mistype themselves. Female Fours who have been reared in traditional or strongly religious environments may identify themselves as Twos, but this is a danger for woman of all types. Some Fours may also have been under stress for a while may similarly recognize many Two-ish behaviors. I didn't type myself as 4 for any of the reasons listed here. I do agree that I can show some 2-ish tendencies when depressed, but I never feel the "need to be needed," or any of the other core desires and fears of type 2 (will expound on them later).
Their differences are not difficult to recognize, however. Twos tend to move toward others and engage them, sometimes excessively. I think I only "move towards and engage others whom I have my sx focus on...or at one time in my life that I was feeling...kinda out of it, I had been through a lot at that point. The sx/so-ish recklessness started to show, but I have never done drugs etc. lol (except for marijuana but that doesn't count). Fours tend to withdraw from others, while hoping that others will seek them out. I don't know on this one, I am pretty sx/so-ish in that when I have my eyes set on someone, I seek them out/pursue initially. Sx/so has no pullbacks of the SP and sx and so are both other oriented...and that is what I see in myself. I don't mean to say I am an extrovert though, I am still an introvert and behave like one. Twos look for people to rescue, Fours look for someone to rescue them. I am absolutely the latter. Twos are very aware of others' feelings, but tend to be unaware of their own motivations and needs. Fours are highly attuned to their own emotional states, but can fail to recognize their impact on others, and so forth. Definitely 4 on this one as well, I think one of the criticisms I have received is that of being too self-absorbed, caring about your own feelings too much.
Alright, I will go over the core stuff between the types, to make it clearer: Type 2
Role: Helper, Giver
Ego fixation: Flattery (Ingratiation)
Holy Idea: Freedom, Will
Basic Fear: Being unloved
Basic Desire: To feel love
Temptation: Deny own needs, manipulation
Vice/Passion: Pride
Virtue: Humility
Disintegration to 8 and integration to 4.
I have never identified with, nor do I think I appear as, in the role of a Helper or Giver. I have never had any pride around this as I am not this to begin with...I don't go out of my way to be of help to others. I assume perhaps they want to be left alone, unless they bring to my attention that they would like my help. I just don't identify with this at all. I do not use flattery or ingratiation, and I know that 2s need not be insincere per se, so that is not exactly what I mean by flattery and igratiation; however, they do show in their actions that they want to please others and be loved. Now, I think I have a sliver of this in me, but by no means is this the core of me. My mother is a 2, for example, and she sometimes complains about "all the things she does for us, how come we don't appreciate it." Sometimes she will cook something for me or buy me something, and if I don't like it, she will take it personally...she is SP dominant.
I am not oriented to others like that, and am rather self-absorbed. I do relate to wanting to be loved, and to feel love. However, this is a core fear - the entire personality structure is based around this for type 2! And the very fact that I can verbalize this, with zero discomfort or trigger around it, I think points to the idea that this might not be core fear for me. I won't deny there is some 2 going on there. But core fears are so entrenched that the type itself often has difficulty identifying it! They don't want to see what it actually is. I actually didn't see the core desire for 4 in me initially, but I will get into that later.
I don't deny my own needs either. Maybe I might, a little bit, when disintegrated, but that is not my primary state of being, I don't think...
I think I have touched on most of the points here for type 2. I will be skipping commenting on dis/integration because I suspect you can probably integrate or disintegrate in either direction.
Type 4
Role: Individualist, Romantic
Ego fixation: Melancholy, fantasizing
Holy idea: Origin
Basic Fear: Having no identity or significance
Temptation: To overuse imagination in search of self
Vice/Passion: Envy
Virtue: Equanimity (Emotional balance)
Disintegration to 2 and integration to 1.
I am definitely constantly consumed with "melancholy and fantasizing" as it concerns my identity. Owing to my 5 wing, I have experienced my inner self as "ugly, repulsive, worthless" in this very...grotesque and raw fashion. I don't really relate to the 'glamour' that 3 wingers often attribute to this ugliness. It was just ugly for me, period. I did feel like though, well this is me, and I just cannot - no matter what - seem to be able to "just not be myself" if you will. Even when I lose my relationships. It feels like I would be betraying myself. It feels like if I cannot be loved for "who I am," well it doesn't really mean anything, because that is not actually love in my eyes. This touches on the idea that 4s feel like there is something inherently different about them, something wrong with them, and that IS them. I.e. the "individualist" who "overuse imagination in search for self" and who are "afraid of having no identity or significance." For example, sometimes people have just commented out of the blue (hell...I have gotten this quite a bit lol)...but you are NORMAL. And I hadn't even directly expressed feeling abnormal per se, but I think it is in my very demeanor, I always think of myself as ugly and flawed and inherently less worthy than practically everyone else out there. This means I undermine my own positive qualities. If someone gives a compliment, I find it hard to internalize it, instead I might go "but but there are all these other things that are wrong with me..." (sometimes I can though, with some hesitation, haha). There is "envy" in that I think I am one of the least desirable person out there (sx + 4) and that practically everyone else is more desirable than me. I get intense feelings of jealousy when I am interested in someone, and I notice they might also be into someone else. It can really cloud my mind, it feels so overwhelming and painful. And I know, this goes with the romance or sx territory as well...but...the overall pattern is what matters, and it looks more 4ish to me...
I am not doing the Holy ideas because they are way too complex to go over in a single post haha.
I'm gonna go through your answers. BOLD will be 8ish. ITALICS will be 1ish.
Alright, this looks a bit jumbled up, so I will highlight your comments in red.
Your significant other just ended your 2 year relationship quite suddenly and with no apparent explanation. Up until this point you had both been talking about marriage and last week you even went to look at rings together. Now he/she won't even return your phone calls or texts. After talking with his/her family you find out that he/she has just been diagnosed with terminal stage 4 cancer.
- Describe how this scenario would make you feel as well as what sort of influences and motivations lie behind those feelings. Why do you feel the way you do?
I would be confused as to why my significant other would want to hide that from me, make this decision almost as if on my behalf, because it sounds like he is doing it to spare me the pain or something. I don't really prefer that in a relationship, and I hope to eventually be with someone who is honest and straightforward. Initially, because I often tend to feel like there is something wrong with me, I would get very heartbroken, sometimes even find life hard to live or go through, because this means everything to me.(I agree this could also be E4, but E1 actually disintegrates into 4, displaying its self-loathing traits. A 4 is actually more concerned with whether or not they stand out, rather than whether or not they are good enough or defective.)
I don't think this in and of itself is enough to qualify as 1, but you do go over 1-ishness later on as well. I think the sentence you refer to here is actually very much 4-ish.
As for "standing out," it depends on what you mean by it. For example, to me that phrase brings up type 3, so E3 might want to "stand out" because they want to excel and outshine others. E4 might "stand out" because their identity is literally rooted in being tragically flawed (flawed unlike anyone else...)
SCENARIO 2
FOCUS ON YOUR FEELING PROCESS HERE
You are in college and this semester both you and your roommate end up in the same class together. You and your roommate get along fairly well and the living situation works but you aren't particularly close. You both typically do your own thing and are rather indifferent to each other. As the semester progresses you excel and become one of the top students in the class whereas your roommate is struggling significantly to grasp the material. The professor assigns a fairly challenging take home test that is a significant portion of your grade. He/she makes it clear that while it is open book, students are to work alone. Later your roommate comes to you begging for help after struggling with the test most of the weekend. You have already completed the assignment and he/she isn't asking to copy your answers, just to help tutor and mentor them as they struggle to complete the test, so there is no way your professor would ever know. However, this is the first time your room-mate has asked you for help this semester. He/she makes it clear that how they do on this test could mean the difference between passing and failing this class.
- How do you respond to your roommate’s request and why?
Well, the professor said you cannot work on the test; I don't mind tutoring him/her on the chapters and subjects...
(Last sentence was italicized) Hmm, I can see slight 1-ishness there. Though I would also say it's Fi. Also Self-pres lol, I don't want to get into trouble. I value preserving that part of my life, that includes school as well. I used to be way more reckless and didn't care (I didn't cheat though!) but now I am getting more serious about this...as it feels like it's about time.
- What sort of things in this scenario stand out to you as far as having a strong influence on your decision making and why?
I don't know...as long as it aligns with my personal sense of ethics I suppose. That is what I go by. both these shows the E1 desire to abide by the rules and codes, but also the E1s strong inner moral code.
People say that I cannot specifically be an E1...?
where I saw more of the 8 is the enneagram questionnaire so gonna go through it.
. What's it like to be you? Very vague question. I have struggled in life but I don't think I have it that bad, specially when it comes to having basic resources, and the opportunity to do what I want (college. career etc.), generally supportive parents...but otherwise, I have always struggled with romantic rejection in ways that I know no one else I talked to, did. It was clear my reaction was extreme compared to how they respond. Sudden feelings of panic just because I saw my crush be interested in another girl (this was in High School; I have calmed down a little now), that I would have to go to the bathroom, would feel dizzy, cry. Having frequent episodes of this. Yeah, it was bad. Feeling like I was so repulsive inside that perhaps I should die, when I was 16 year old.
You italicized the last sentence. I am not sure I understand why this is 1. As I clarified earlier on, my core fears are not that of being "corrupt and not having integrity." I am pretty comfortable and secure in my "integrity" don't think I have any anger around it. By comfortable I mean I am not rigid or uptight about it.
b. What have others said about you? Hmm, "precocious," "intelligent," "shy," "sweet," but recently, also "gullible" and "innocent." And no one has literally used the word 'dramatic' but I feel like some have implied it. I think I can be seen as creative and unique as well. People usually see me in a much more positive light than I have ever seen myself in.
You italicized the last sentence. I think I have already said what I needed to on the 4 vs.1 for me though lol.
a. What personality traits and/or ways of being are impossible for you to adopt? Assertive(I disagree with this, assertive doesn't mean aggressive or harsh. I think you are a soft assertive)
5. Why have you left friends and other relationships in the past and/or why have they left you? I guess I was too emotional and they could not deal with it. My wounds are pretty deep, most people have a hard time being able to "take it" (as in take the kind of pain I often end up in and the accompanying intensity). But then, the majority of those people were teenagers. I wonder if people become more capable of 'being able to take it' with age perhaps.
As for why I might cut off people, sometimes I have because I was in too much pain. Only other thing I can think of is that if I don't approve of their character, I might cut them out. So the thing about 8s is they absolutely HATE HATE HATE being vulnerable. and while you didn't despise this sense, saying you cut people off from being in too much pain may not be type related, but it could also be the 8s underlying fear of someone abusing their fragile states, a need to always be strong as the 8s put it. 8 is not always aggressive and in your face - sometimes 8 is that girl going through hell putting on a brave face so no one can hurt them anymore than they already are. The fact also cutting people off out of their character, that is a gut triad thing in 8 or 1. they feel strongly about things they believe in or people they like and if someone negatively affects that, they will be chopped off.
I am EII, and I very much relate to Se PoLR. I find it kinda cruel actually, I just can't take that nor subject anyone to that. It may not be cruel to Se valuing types, but it is my PoLR, and I have a lot of vulnerability around it, and prefer to never have to deal with it.
Ok, getting back to your comment: I was not afraid of someone "abusing my fragile state"; I was afraid they were abandoning me and found me undesirable/unattractive for baring myself/making myself naked...and as an sx type I think you might be able to relate to how terribly hurtful and vulnerable that feels...? Well, perhaps anyone could see where I am coming from, for this. But I don't see the 8 motivation there no. I don't need to always be strong, and if I must admit, I suspect I have a submissive streak. I don't feel the need to be "in control," and more so soft and yielding compared to 8. I have never been "the girl putting on a brave face so that no one can hurt me"; in fact I admit to complaining more so about what I am going through, to others, instead of doing that.
And as I said earlier I do not "chop people off," I just politely distance myself. Maybe I will get angry if they are behaving in a way that violates my personal ethics (abuse or cruelty for instance), but I am unlikely to get 8-ish in your face angry, more like internally so, but I guess it will still be there. I think this is also EII.
a. How do you relate to these types? 4,9,6,5, a little 2. I don't mean to say "I am all these types" and relate very well and totally to type 4, but other types also play (even though minor) role. I relate to 4 because my identity has literally been rooted and entrenched in "there is something horribly ugly/undesirable/repulsive about me," and that has not changed. I want to highlight this one. This feeling can exist in several types for different reasons at different times. This does appear an image type feeling. However, relating to the negatives of 4 could mean you are the disintegration of a 1.
You have said that I might be disintegrating to 4 but you have not touched on solid evidence as to why you think I might be 1 fix or core to begin with...
If you are a type, you cannot just inherit their good or bad qualities solely. I think your questionnaire shows a little more two than you are perhaps aware of as well.
Well, no, I can see some 2-ishness in me as well. I just don't think it is strong enough for core...Also apparently E4 can have similarities with or "stronger line" to E2, and sometimes E8. It's more E2 in my case, I suppose.
I see more of the neutral aspects of 2 in you than I see neutral aspects of 4. You can love artistic things and originality without being a 4. If you were a 4, you'd actually be harboring more of the E1 negative traits since a disintegrated 4 goes to 1. You'd start becoming overly self-righteous and uncompromising in a stressed state.
4 is an image type though, centered around feeling like there is something inherently wrong with them, that they are defective in a way that no one else is...and image type is going to make no efforts whatsoever to convey their image...?
Also sx/so is relevant here as well I think:
Sexual/Social
This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.
This sounds slightly narcissistic and I don't think that's me. Some 4s can be like that though, yeah. To clarify, I think 4w5 has an air of quiet, withdrawn elitism, instead of the more flamboyant and "in your face" streak of the 4w3. At least from what I have read of the descriptions.
While alone they feel cut off, they overcompensate by feeling overly empowered by their artistic isolation.
Hmm, I am not entirely sure what you mean by "artistic isolation." I don't think 4s have to be literally artists, though they can have some talents for it. But...I mean, I am somewhat good at writing but I never considered myself a proper writer or poet, or anything like that, since I didn't think I had that kind of talent.
The neutral of 4 is a state of uncaring whether or not they're in the group, but intensely focused on whether or not they stand out, since that is their goal since they are already "separate." They're in some ways sort of looking to be saved, to find their kin which side with them on the originality. at the same time they despise it, because they won't be special anymore. You do not sound like that to me.
I absolutely relate to the bolded. I have always had a very strong desire "to be rescued." It doesn't even have to be an unhealthy thing per se, it's just part of who I am...
I do not however relate to "finding kin who side with their originality" which sounds Soc, and I don't think I have that kind of focus on Soc.
You would be correct however in that I am not really narcissistic and vain as 4s are often portrayed to be, but I do have some 'elitist tendencies' that I have only just become aware of. I think 4w3 are better able to 'make a craft out of their persona' so to speak in the way you talk about it here. I am more withdrawn compared to them.
I will share 4w3 vs. 4w5 from Tom Condon's description here as well:
Four with a Three Wing
• Fours with a Three wing can seem like Sevens. Can be cheerful, outgoing, with a sense of humor and style
• May be “counter depressive,†in that they stay busy and on-task to avoid getting bogged down in melancholy
• Healthy Fours with this wing marry art and commerce; they are both creative and effective, intuitive and ambitious
• Generally more visual and kinesthetic and have a faster tempo of thought, speech and reaction
• Often materialistic, can have elegant or expensive taste; could prize the rare
• Might dress flashy – albeit in a color coordinated way – in contrast to Fours with a Five wing, who try to be socially invisible
• Can be conscious of wearing a mask to hide their “true†deformed identity
• Some are Three “wannabesâ€; they imitate Threes to pass in the “normal†world as high-functioning and well-adjusted citizens; underneath they feel like ETs
• Can be exceptionally competitive, sometimes more so than Threes
• Their pleasure in their own achievements may be tainted by jealousy or motivated by revenge
• When recognized for what they accomplish, they may feel celebrated for the wrong reasons or dismiss the recognition as not enough
• Fours with this wing can tend towards melodrama and flamboyance
• Get lost in fraudulence, play the role of the artist or the authentic, unique one
• Generally more conventional and less original than Fours with a Five wing
• May have bad taste but not know it
Four with a Five Wing
• Fours with a Five wing are generally more introverted
• When healthy they have a rich, complex creativity
• Although somewhat intellectual, they have exceptional depth of feeling and insight
• May be multi-talented in ways that they take for granted
• Fours with this wing are often more original and idiosyncratic, unique to the point of eccentric
• Use thinking to suppress or dissociate from their feelings
• Often they are more auditory and kinesthetic and less consciously visual
• They have a spiritual and aesthetic openness and may also have a marked need to pour themselves into creative or artistic pursuits
• Try to use the strength of their minds to manage their emotional intensity
• Some are loners who can seem enigmatic or hard to read
• Externally reserved and internally resonant; when absorbed in a mood they can sit still and expressionless for long periods of time (hypnotic catalepsy)
• An “open or closed†quality; after suddenly breaking hours of silence, the Four won’t stop talking
• Fours with this wing will sometimes polarize against their own Three wing, making Threeness a shadow that they indict in others
• Could see the world as dominated by trashy, materialistic values and pointless hyperactivity – things the Four secretly envies
• Some are nondescript and try to be invisible. Consciously decide to venture into the world
• Some are sedentary and, if not overweight, have no muscle tone
• Especially prone to feeling alienated and depressed; could isolate themselves
• More likely to argue for their limitations or prove they can’t function in the normal world
• Might ignore practical matters or unpleasant but necessary chores, citing the strength of their feelings as an excuse
• Can be whiny or have an air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment
• Prone to sulking and stubborn, passive-aggressive sadness; unusually humorless
• Can inhabit a private world of pain and loss or be morbidly in love with death
• Might have a well-developed eye for the grotesque and the gothic
• Like Sixes they can fear taking action; some complain of having little energy
Mind you, my elitism with regards "but I am not 3 (referring to their behaviors)" might be another thing pointing to the disdain for the commonplace/elitism of the 4 (...feel kinda shy to even admit this, really). You are right that I do not come in your face and say it, but it is subtle and implied. Hell, I wouldn't have been able to spot these 4 tendencies in myself when I first encountered the enneagram haha...
I have managed to subdue it and not make it so severe anymore, after a decade of going through this, but at the heart it is still the same thing. I am very emotional and tend to react pretty emotionally to things that do matter to me. This sounds more gut triad than heart triad reaction. Gut is about emotional impulse, image is about something effecting the way people perceive them.
You mean like this entire post that I have written defending my self-image...?
For instance, sometimes if I type a 4 as something other than their unique chosen type, they will actually get mad at me since I alter them "knowing themselves" moreless.
Hmm, I thought you were typing core 7? That is what it says on your profile...
react on emotionally driven impulses, usually about things or causes they are passionate about. The E1 is often called the crusader for this point. E8s with their assertion always stand strongly by their values and belief systems.
9 because I can see myself as nice and easygoing and sometimes I have difficulty saying no to someone, even though I really don't care or am not interested.Hi this is actually E2.
E9's core desire is to have wholeness, peace of mind, and they do this by avoiding conflicts and avoiding self-assertion.
E2's core desire is to be loved and they do this by denying their own needs and "needing to be needed."
I think my motivations are more in line with the former...
Here I can give a (somewhat trite) example. Sometimes people might stop me, trying to hand me pamphlets for their group, specially religious groups. I am not religious at all, but I just politely take it, because I don't want to cause conflict, that feels "uncomfortable" to me, it will disturb my peace of mind. And then later discard it when i get the chance. Sometimes they will tell me more about it, and I try to give some signals that I am not as interested, unfortunately, but I just don't seem to be able to say "no" straight-away. That just seems too mean. This is not really about being lovable; I just want to have my "peace of mind." Also 9s care about being benevolent and kind.
Another example is say I am new to a place (for instance, in my last two years of high school I volunteered at a hospital), and I am sitting by myself and there is a group of others who were volunteers just like I am. One of they person comes up to me to invite me to their table. She was trying to be nice, and wanted to include me. I appreciate that, but I didn't really feel extremely bothered by being alone necessarily; sometimes I wish to be alone too. I go along with it to "keep the peace," but not because I want to be lovable and generous the way 2s want to be. Even though a part of me was like "ehhh I don't really need this," I still went with it. To avoid confrontation and disturbing my peace of mind.
E9 is about merging, being part of the whole, going with the flow. Honestly, E9 can't be bothered. Their whole problem is inertia. If you offer to do something, they say yes because they just don't really feel any which way about it.
Well, I am image core, after all
I do know how I feel about these things.
The only one emotion I had problem being in touch with is anger. Heck, I even relate to 9's whole "I am not even an angry person" haha.
E2 will say yes even if they know they aren't fond of it because they have problems saying no.
Hopefully I cleared up where I was coming from, in my explanation.
I don't want to get into conflicts, and if I do disagree I try to do it more gently (unless I were angry, but even then I don't 'denigrate' the other person, ever). E2 is conflict avoidant. E9 is conflict avoidant. Actually, since E4 is reactive, E4 is more likely to get into a fight. E1 can be conflict avoidant at times. E8 is assertive and therefore not as avoidant either. Hence I say 9w8 or 8w9. Something is tempering the heat of the reaction. I can tell you a wing 5 won't temper it. Nor a wing 3.
I disagree that E4 automatically means "into a fight" in the sense of being forceful and direct in the Se sense:
Types that value Se are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. This may at times be perceived as abrasive, particularly by types who do not value Se. There is usually a competitive edge to this style of group interaction, resulting in a more intense atmosphere than that of introverted sensing (Si)-valuing quadras.
However, I can be, as you said, "soft assertive."
And I disagree that Se-polrs can't be 4s because they are too soft-assertive and not as abrasive as non Se-polrs. I think reactivity is pretty apparent in the way I have communicated on here...
b. How do you NOT relate to them?
I am not uber image focused as 4s (perhaps 4w3s) are often portrayed to be. But that doesn't mean I am not an image type. I am not as "non-type type" as 9 descriptions often sound, and am very acutely aware of who I am, what I am about, and I continuously assert this fact even in daily life or conversations. Doesn't have to be direct like "I am X therefore I cannot do this!" per se, but my actions tend to reflect strongly who I think I am and won't back down or compromise.this is as assertive as all fuck here.
Hmm, maybe I should clear up. I don't necessarily tell people "I am this way and I am not going to be this way," I simply behave in a way that conveys that. Not really as assertive as you might be seeing it. I want to avoid confrontation. But I also don't want to give up sense of "unique identity."
7. Which types are least like you? 7,8,3,1
a. Why specifically do you not relate to these types? I am not as "happiness oriented" as 7s and rather tend to dwell on what's wrong. Just clarifying some on E7. Most descriptions of E7 center on a 7w8 or an Se type of 7. 7 presents itself in different ways for different types. I do not personally see seven in you, but I do want to clarify using any activity or passion as an escapism from facing the things that trouble you is a 7 trait.
I am the opposite of type 8 lol. I am not achievement oriented, not competitive, and don't care much about "shining in the eyes of others" or becoming that desperate about appearing successful. I can rather lack ambition at times. I don't connect with the moralizing nature of 1, and and more relaxed than them. Things that bother them don't really bother me.You just described an E8 as an E3.
No...only the first sentence was about E8, the rest was about E3...sorry for the confusion there
E3 is the one who is so success and achievement oriented in their competition, wanting to shine in the eyes of others. E8s don't actually give two fucks if they shine in the eyes of you, they are strongly independent and HATE worrying about that actually. E8 fears being vulnerable, and while I think types display it differently, usually E8 is more heavily focused on getting themselves in an independent situation where they do not have to rely on anyone. THAT is their ultimate goal. Counterphobic 6 can come off 8ish for this exact reason. There are no set in stone things for what should bother and E8 or E1, it just is based on their views and passions. but yes, E8 does not care what you think. E8 is also hard to crack open personally, but once they trust in you, they are extremely loyal and will defend the people they love very closely. E8 gets misunderstood and a bad wrap a lot.
Hmm, I see what you are saying about E8, and your observation are valuable. However, as I have said earlier, I don't relate to 8 at all, I don't think I have the motivations of the type, and I don't really behave like that type.
A: He cannot possibly be into you; he didn't respond with anything revealing himself when you revealed X about yourself.
B: Do you mean he is not into me?
A: He isn't, no one ever is, and no one ever will be. There is something repulsive in your core, every time you make yourself naked, they are not drawn to you, instead they are repulsed by you.
B: *panics* I am afraid I will be abandoned again(fear of abandonment is a root of E2), but perhaps I will be, I never have been good enough. *Becomes dejected and sad, sometimes nightmares*
I see where you are coming from with regards to E2, but I don't share the core motivations of the type.
I have avoidant attachment with my parents, even as a child, and I am not emotionally close to them all that much. I have always been pretty distant and feel "repulsion" if they show affection, or try to get close to me. Not repulsion in the sense of hatred, but it's just...I don't know, awkward, weird. Like a random stranger wanting to be very close to you and telling you how much they love you...I prefer the distance. E8s tend to struggle to get to or feel close to people because they dislike the vulnerability of it, without realizing it.
I think what I discussed here might also very well fall in line with E5 actually, and I do think I am 4w5. The distance, detachment, from relationships. Though I should clarify I have avoidant attachment only with some people, and insecure attachment with others. I also think attachment styles can somewhat fall outside of the enneagram, though there can be overlaps.
I hope the dissection helps you visualize what I saw. XD
per say the sexual 4 turns its inner pain outward onto other people. I do not see that in you AT ALL. However, I just mentioned Sx 4 is often mistaken for 8, 3, or even Sx 2 according to things like this. So I was making a point to it. Hence I said I could be taking your Sx 4 as being 8.
I don't go off of the subtypes because I am skeptical of them. I approach the core and stacking differently...and no harm in that approach either. If the author (apparently) doesn't stand by his own descriptions anymore I think that says something (Chestnut is basically word for word from Naranjo, from what I remember). At least one other person, besides @Luminous has claimed that Naranjo changed his mind about these descriptions.
So yes, you would be right, that I am not the "Sx4" that is described by Beatrice Chestnut; but I do share the core motivations of 4 and also for the sexual instinct. Hopefully my last post here wrt sx4 also clears up where I stand on it.
Naranjo’s continued focus on the psychological and therapeutic applications of the enneagram seems to have stimulated his comment in his May 1996, Enneagram Monthly interview that he was reconsidering the premise of the subtypes. “The more I observe people, the more differentiated the subtypes become, noting “that there was a hole†in his earlier descriptions (p.21). He further reiterated his objection to the practice of listing subtype character traits because they shift as the transformation process occurs.
With regard to the instinctual subtypes, one intriguing insight to type 4 was the introduction of a rare type of sexual 4 that can be "counter-envious" with 8-like tendencies, which Claudio described as often appearing "more 8 than an 8." This sexual 4 is in denial of envy, is self-confident, claims position, and knows his or her own worth ("I deserve it"). Moreover, this 4 can be cannibalistic, overstep boundaries, and diminish others to make the self bigger and to prove one right. Examples given were Hitler and Pacino in Scent of a Woman. This raises the question of "counter types" for each of the Enneagram points.
This is my assertion: the Enneagram as we know it was errantly transmitted between Ichazo and Naranjo, and it was done separately from the material we refer to as the Instinctual Subtypes. Naranjo placed Ichazo's type 6 at the 4 position and placed Ichazo's type 4 at the 6 position without bringing the material of the instinctual subtypes along, with the result that the so-called sexual 4 - 'competition/hatred' - is, in reality, a subtype of the type 6, not of the type 4 as we know it.
Unfortunately in her usual writing on sx4s (save for that one article where she admits they are not angry all the time...only when feeling abandoned (which I relate to)), she has referred to sx 4s as competitive, caring about success etc. (I have her instincts booklet, and the subtype is in there).
I don't know if she thinks that's a rare type of 4 or not (referring to your quote), but it's good to have that coming from Naranjo at least...
Very interesting, I will look more into it. And I do agree that Ichazo's 4 is somewhat different from the enneatype 4 of today. Ichazo's 4 is completely capable of "overanalysis" and over-reasoning etc. that is usually attributed to a 5 wing, and I wondered where that part of it went...
So our early Enneagram work was tough stuff indeed. We were all fallen from a state of essence (this part of us was good) into personality (this part of us was bad). This was like combining the Christian notion of original sin, plus the dark view of psychoanalysis and the even darker view of the Gurdjieffians that we are all terminally asleep. According to the Enneagram, people were really screwed up and we were all going to hell or something. You can see this dark view still in Claudio Naranjo's books. He writes great stuff, but it's way over on the dark side. I imagine it'sa combination of his psychoanalytic training and his Fiveness. By the way it's wonderful that Claudio is still teaching, and he deserves tremendous recognition as the "mother" of the Enneagram, even if the rest of us are taking it in different directions. For those who are interested, the early Enneagram work that Claudio presented can be found in Sandra Maitri's book "The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram." This is the traditionally severe view of the types, lots of what's wrong with us plus a few rays of hope for spiritual development. There's great stuff for those who can handle it. But it's not for the faint of heart, and certainly not for beginners.
I just like filling out Qs sometimes/going more in depth on who I am, what I care about etc...
