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Thread: Scenario Q

  1. #11
    ∂ιѕﻭяα¢є∂ ¢σѕмσηαυт Luminous's Avatar
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    Here's a quote I found about Naranjo's subtypes:
    Naranjo’s continued focus on the psychological and therapeutic applications of the enneagram seems to have stimulated his comment in his May 1996, Enneagram Monthly interview that he was reconsidering the premise of the subtypes. “The more I observe people, the more differentiated the subtypes become, noting “that there was a hole” in his earlier descriptions (p.21). He further reiterated his objection to the practice of listing subtype character traits because they shift as the transformation process occurs.
    Hope that's helpful. The other source I have was a phone call, which I cannot quote directly.

    I also found this:
    With regard to the instinctual subtypes, one intriguing insight to type 4 was the introduction of a rare type of sexual 4 that can be "counter-envious" with 8-like tendencies, which Claudio described as often appearing "more 8 than an 8." This sexual 4 is in denial of envy, is self-confident, claims position, and knows his or her own worth ("I deserve it"). Moreover, this 4 can be cannibalistic, overstep boundaries, and diminish others to make the self bigger and to prove one right. Examples given were Hitler and Pacino in Scent of a Woman. This raises the question of "counter types" for each of the Enneagram points.
    I don't know for sure, but the A rare type, and the THIS sexual 4 could imply more than one way for sx dom to manifest for a 4.

    There's also this:
    This is my assertion: the Enneagram as we know it was errantly transmitted between Ichazo and Naranjo, and it was done separately from the material we refer to as the Instinctual Subtypes. Naranjo placed Ichazo's type 6 at the 4 position and placed Ichazo's type 4 at the 6 position without bringing the material of the instinctual subtypes along, with the result that the so-called sexual 4 - 'competition/hatred' - is, in reality, a subtype of the type 6, not of the type 4 as we know it.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Venus Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luminous View Post
    Here's a quote I found about Naranjo's subtypes:


    Hope that's helpful. The other source I have was a phone call, which I cannot quote directly.
    Thanks for the quote, that makes sense.

    I also found this:


    I don't know for sure, but the A rare type, and the THIS sexual 4 could imply more than one way for sx dom to manifest for a 4.
    Unfortunately in her usual writing on sx4s (save for that one article where she admits they are not angry all the time...only when feeling abandoned (which I relate to)), she has referred to sx 4s as competitive, caring about success etc. (I have her instincts booklet, and the subtype is in there).

    I don't know if she thinks that's a rare type of 4 or not (referring to your quote), but it's good to have that coming from Naranjo at least...

    Very interesting, I will look more into it. And I do agree that Ichazo's 4 is somewhat different from the enneatype 4 of today. Ichazo's 4 is completely capable of "overanalysis" and over-reasoning etc. that is usually attributed to a 5 wing, and I wondered where that part of it went...
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  3. #13
    ∂ιѕﻭяα¢є∂ ¢σѕмσηαυт Luminous's Avatar
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    I just found this
    So our early Enneagram work was tough stuff indeed. We were all fallen from a state of essence (this part of us was good) into personality (this part of us was bad). This was like combining the Christian notion of original sin, plus the dark view of psychoanalysis and the even darker view of the Gurdjieffians that we are all terminally asleep. According to the Enneagram, people were really screwed up and we were all going to hell or something. You can see this dark view still in Claudio Naranjo's books. He writes great stuff, but it's way over on the dark side. I imagine it'sa combination of his psychoanalytic training and his Fiveness. By the way it's wonderful that Claudio is still teaching, and he deserves tremendous recognition as the "mother" of the Enneagram, even if the rest of us are taking it in different directions. For those who are interested, the early Enneagram work that Claudio presented can be found in Sandra Maitri's book "The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram." This is the traditionally severe view of the types, lots of what's wrong with us plus a few rays of hope for spiritual development. There's great stuff for those who can handle it. But it's not for the faint of heart, and certainly not for beginners.
    Though here, Chestnut says she learned in 2004, so maybe she is taking his more current descriptions.

    For sure the descriptions don't seem balanced. Some are overly positive (5sx), some overly negative (4sx). Some seem inherently unhealthy.
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    -: ✦ :-
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Venus Rose's Avatar
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    If it is possible, please close this thread. Thank you.

    If not, I am pretty settled on my type and I likely won't be using this thread anymore...I will leave it at that.
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