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  1. #11
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    Have you considered 215? I do not get a sense of overbearing intrusiveness to you as I would expect with type 8 present. Type 9 as a fix is out of the question because you are not a person of habitual inaction. Type 6 fix seems like a solid "no", and in fact you don't seem to have any attachment orientation. Type 7 fix also feels unlikely because you don't seem to be avoiding sensations of deprivation/boredom.

    I think type 1 in second position hampers your core 2 in a disciplined manner, and since you've returned, I've finally been able to see the core 2 in you (you seem much happier as such and that is a good thing). Your image is "managed" ethically and occasionally this management oozes out into the social sphere toward others, but far too minimally to be core 1. I get a sense that your headiness operates behind closed doors and in service of your image and gut type, as in you may be found researching how to boost yourself into the stratosphere of "professional helper" (2), but in a manner which ensures that you cross all Ts and dot all Is (1).

    I am unsure on your instincts as I haven't thought enough to pair them with the above fixes.

    Also, ESTJ with healthy Ne works well. Ne > Fi for you.
    Perpetual mood


    “Sometimes I think I have felt everything I'm ever gonna feel.
    And from here on out, I'm not gonna feel anything new.
    Just lesser versions of what I've already felt.”


    - look it up yourself


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  2. #12
    Talk to me. Merced's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    Have you considered 215? I do not get a sense of overbearing intrusiveness to you as I would expect with type 8 present. Type 9 as a fix is out of the question because you are not a person of habitual inaction. Type 6 fix seems like a solid "no", and in fact you don't seem to have any attachment orientation. Type 7 fix also feels unlikely because you don't seem to be avoiding sensations of deprivation/boredom.

    I think type 1 in second position hampers your core 2 in a disciplined manner, and since you've returned, I've finally been able to see the core 2 in you (you seem much happier as such and that is a good thing). Your image is "managed" ethically and occasionally this management oozes out into the social sphere toward others, but far too minimally to be core 1. I get a sense that your headiness operates behind closed doors and in service of your image and gut type, as in you may be found researching how to boost yourself into the stratosphere of "professional helper" (2), but in a manner which ensures that you cross all Ts and dot all Is (1).

    I am unsure on your instincts as I haven't thought enough to pair them with the above fixes.

    Also, ESTJ with healthy Ne works well. Ne > Fi for you.
    I've never considered a 1 fix, I've always been so fixated on my independence that anything other than 8 seemed silly to look into. I will now however.

    And I guess it's inflation, but damn it's hard to value my two cents
    As a kid I was idolizing millionaires and all the presidents

    - Left at London
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  3. #13
    Talk to me. Merced's Avatar
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    Hmmm... I've been thinking on it and I don't think I have a 1 fix.

    And I guess it's inflation, but damn it's hard to value my two cents
    As a kid I was idolizing millionaires and all the presidents

    - Left at London

  4. #14
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merced View Post
    Hmmm... I've been thinking on it and I don't think I have a 1 fix.
    Could you expand upon why?
    I'm starved for intellectual discussion here and elsewhere and would love to hear your thoughts.
    Perpetual mood


    “Sometimes I think I have felt everything I'm ever gonna feel.
    And from here on out, I'm not gonna feel anything new.
    Just lesser versions of what I've already felt.”


    - look it up yourself



  5. #15
    Talk to me. Merced's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    Could you expand upon why?
    I'm starved for intellectual discussion here and elsewhere and would love to hear your thoughts.
    I don't really think my anger is internalized. 8s are mad at the world. 9s 'aren't mad'. 1s are mad at themselves. I think my feelings of guilt and shame are very internalized however. While I do see myself as someone who reaches out to help, I don't think I am imposing. You can tell me 'no, I want to do this my way' and it wouldn't affect me much unless it was unjust. A lot of writing on e1 implies that there is this need to get others on board. I don't need others on board, I need others to back off.

    I'm also obsessed with my independence. My autonomy is still my priority and while I'm quick to people please, I am not quick to let someone walk all over me.

    It was just something I've been musing on. I think Si + e2 comes off as e1 and I've been pretty mellow since my return to the forum. I'm still plenty willing to set someone straight, especially now that I don't have the mod double standard looming over me.

    To be blunt, I don't know how else to describe why I don't think I have a 1 fix. Maybe ask me more follow up questions? I do a lot of introspection but sometimes an external prodding can get the gears turning.

    And I guess it's inflation, but damn it's hard to value my two cents
    As a kid I was idolizing millionaires and all the presidents

    - Left at London

  6. #16
    Fire & Ice Chaotic Symphony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merced View Post
    I don't really think my anger is internalized. 8s are mad at the world. 9s 'aren't mad'. 1s are mad at themselves. I think my feelings of guilt and shame are very internalized however. While I do see myself as someone who reaches out to help, I don't think I am imposing. You can tell me 'no, I want to do this my way' and it wouldn't affect me much unless it was unjust. A lot of writing on e1 implies that there is this need to get others on board. I don't need others on board, I need others to back off.

    I'm also obsessed with my independence. My autonomy is still my priority and while I'm quick to people please, I am not quick to let someone walk all over me.

    It was just something I've been musing on. I think Si + e2 comes off as e1 and I've been pretty mellow since my return to the forum. I'm still plenty willing to set someone straight, especially now that I don't have the mod double standard looming over me.

    To be blunt, I don't know how else to describe why I don't think I have a 1 fix. Maybe ask me more follow up questions? I do a lot of introspection but sometimes an external prodding can get the gears turning.
    I kinda like that description of 1. I read wisdom of enneagram and it kind of helped me to see what they called the "child enneagrams"
    "Ones tried hard to be good kids: they often report feeling that, as children, they needed to justify their existence. Simply being a child was somehow not acceptable, and many young Ones developed a sense of seriousness and adult responsibility at an early age. They understood that their parents expected a lot from them, and like Threes, they often played the role of the Family Hero. Young Ones generally take on such expectations with great earnestness. For various reasons, Ones experience a sense of being "disconnected" from their protective-figure (who is usually, although not al ways, the biological father). Having another stable adult figure that the child can identify with and move toward gives the child the ability to separate from dependency on the mother and to increasingly sense his or her own individuality and autonomy. If, however, the protective-figure is not adequately fulfilling his role, young Ones sense a fundamental disconnection. They realize that their real or symbolic father does not adequately fit their temperament and needs. This does not necessarily mean that the protective-figure is bad or abusive, but that, for whatever reason, a certain effortless bonding simply does not take place. The result Is a feeling of frustration for the child and the sense that he must "father" himself. In some cases, young Ones respond to chaotic conditions around them by becoming hyper responsible, the "voice of reason" in their families. In this way they are able to establish some sense of autonomy and boundaries—the key issues of their type. In effect, the child says, "I will give myself guidelines. I will become my own father-figure and be my own moral guide. I will police myself so no one else will police me; I will punish myself so no one else will punish me." Ones try to surpass what is expected of them by adhering to the rules so rigorously that no one will be able to catch them in error, thus earning independence."
    Fearsome hearts, I wouldn't lie
    I got memories that travels my mind
    Fear not, fear not when you go
    I got pieces of your hate in my soul
    Look at me now
    I'm falling apart in daylight
    All the pieces that I've lost, I have loved


    Formerly: JazzyLarsen, Crystal Winter Dream, Hummingbird Spirit
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  7. #17
    Fire & Ice Chaotic Symphony's Avatar
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    I had limited time last time but I had also intended to write up the 8, which has a stark difference from the E1. I however also want to compare and contrast them. Over my course of studying I debated whether my anger was more 1 like or 8 like. So I took some time. XD

    "Most Eights have told us that they felt that they had to become "adults" at an early age, perhaps to help bring in money to raise the other children in the family because of an absent father or some other calamity. They may have had to deal with a dangerous environment (such as drug dealers, or street gangs, or some kind of war zone), or with an erratic or violent adult in their home. Other Eights grow up in fairly normal families but may have felt the need to protect their feelings for other reasons. In short, Eights tend to grow up quickly, and survival issues are foremost to them, as if they were asking, "How can I—and the few people I care about—survive in a cruel, uncaring world?" Young Eights soon get the idea that it is not safe to be gentle or giving. These attitudes feel "soft" and "weak" and in their minds only invite rejection, betrayal, and pain. They feel that it is best not to let down their guard, so if there is going to be any nurturing or warmth in their lives, someone else will have to provide it. Eights often report that as children, they struggled with powerful feelings of having been rejected or betrayed. They were typically assertive and adventuresome and got into "situations" that led to being punished frequently. Rather than detach or withdraw from their punishers, young Eights defended themselves against the feeling of rejection with the attitude, "To hell with them. Who needs them? No one tells me what to do!" Of course, like anyone else, Eights want to be loved, but the more they felt rejected and treated like misfits, the more they hardened their hearts. Young Eights may learn to play the role of the Scapegoat (the Black Sheep or Problem Child). In family systems theory, "scapegoats" typically make explicit the hidden problems in a family, through either word or deed. As adults, Eights become mavericks, rebelling against restraints and bucking the system wherever possible. Sometimes the "decision" to steel themselves came when the child felt betrayed by a parent or another significant adult. The child may have been abandoned by the parents in a boarding school, or left with relatives, or had their savings or some other valuable taken from them un fairly. They may also have been the victims of physical or sexual abuse. But because of the gross imbalance of power between young Eights and those who treated them unfairly, they could do little or nothing about it except to make the decision never to allow this to happen to them again. Eights consider betrayal to be a pivotal point in their lives because it marked the death of their innocence and goodness. When their inner core was betrayed by someone important, Eights decided that they would never allow themselves to be vulnerable or innocent again. They would never allow themselves to drop their guard. For a time, Eights may secretly grieve their lost innocence, but eventually they accept this as the way they must be to meet life's challenges. If they have come from backgrounds that were remorselessly threatening, Eights tend to become as remorseless to themselves as they are to others. Once the heart has been buried, even grief over lost innocence can be forgotten."

    again from Wisdom of Enneagram. going to recollect the One description again next to this.
    "Ones tried hard to be good kids: they often report feeling that, as children, they needed to justify their existence. Simply being a child was somehow not acceptable, and many young Ones developed a sense of seriousness and adult responsibility at an early age. They understood that their parents expected a lot from them, and like Threes, they often played the role of the Family Hero. Young Ones generally take on such expectations with great earnestness. For various reasons, Ones experience a sense of being "disconnected" from their protective-figure (who is usually, although not al ways, the biological father). Having another stable adult figure that the child can identify with and move toward gives the child the ability to separate from dependency on the mother and to increasingly sense his or her own individuality and autonomy. If, however, the protective-figure is not adequately fulfilling his role, young Ones sense a fundamental disconnection. They realize that their real or symbolic father does not adequately fit their temperament and needs. This does not necessarily mean that the protective-figure is bad or abusive, but that, for whatever reason, a certain effortless bonding simply does not take place. The result Is a feeling of frustration for the child and the sense that he must "father" himself. In some cases, young Ones respond to chaotic conditions around them by becoming hyper responsible, the "voice of reason" in their families. In this way they are able to establish some sense of autonomy and boundaries—the key issues of their type. In effect, the child says, "I will give myself guidelines. I will become my own father-figure and be my own moral guide. I will police myself so no one else will police me; I will punish myself so no one else will punish me." Ones try to surpass what is expected of them by adhering to the rules so rigorously that no one will be able to catch them in error, thus earning independence."

    1s and 8s both seek independence and coping with a sort of dysfunction. Similar to the other for some reason their family became reliable, causing them to seek independence. They both desire to take on adult responsibilities because of this. But as you can see, there is little in common besides that childhood wise. They choose two entirely different paths to seek this independence and ability to survive. E1 will become the shining light, trying to please that dysfunctional side anyway. They will be so "good", so "right", that no one can criticize them anymore or hurt them. An 8 says "fuck being right to them" bucks them out and becomes as said the "Black sheep" the one who decided to be stronger than them. I think the biggest difference is how 8 is assertive versus how the 1 is compliant. E8 sees no need to please, but takes control. E1 always has the inner struggle, hence why I find it fitting that Merced said 8s hate the world but 1s hate themselves, because the 1 in some way is always seeking the validation that they ARE good and ARE right rather than maybe what that childhood voice of insecurity makes them feel. 8s just said fuck it burn the damn place. There is a HUGE attitude difference.
    Fearsome hearts, I wouldn't lie
    I got memories that travels my mind
    Fear not, fear not when you go
    I got pieces of your hate in my soul
    Look at me now
    I'm falling apart in daylight
    All the pieces that I've lost, I have loved


    Formerly: JazzyLarsen, Crystal Winter Dream, Hummingbird Spirit

  8. #18
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    Types 8, 9, and 1 are part of the gut triad, but it may be more helpful to think of it as the body or even action triad. These types either act or don't act upon life in real time. This goes beyond just anger. The "extroverted" type in this triad is 8, the "introverted" (withdrawn) type is 9, and type 1 is in between. That is why 8 is associated with lust and 9 with sloth.

    Types 3, 6, and 9 are compartmentalized in the sense that they are disconnected from their other two triads. So, type 9 is a compartmentalized and withdrawn gut type, so their head, heart, and gut are all compartmentalized and not connected. They do not act on their head or heart, even though both of those are still very real to them. That is why 9s are often associated with a rich internal fantasy landscape. It's all in there, but they habitually do not act upon it, choosing instead to keep that place sacred to themselves. That is why they go along. It's far more complex than just wanting to avoid anger or separation from others and is actually kinda respectable when looked at in this light.

    Conversely, type 8 habitually overacts in the moment. In a way, everything is over-connected and they just act on their desires immediately with no regret. If they think they should have it, they have it. If they feel they should have it, they have it. This is what is meant by lust, which is opposite sloth. It's a very externally oriented push from their gut/body, and it is aggressive and without remorse or filter, unlike type 1.

    Type one is in between, managing these desires through control. There is a filtering process that helps them decide if and when they should act or use restraint. With type 1, you essentially get a somewhat vocal person who can be action oriented, but you also get a sense of there being a little more beneath the surface, which goes hand-in-hand with resentment.

    To expand to make the whole picture a little clearer, let's return to the attachment triad of 3, 6, and 9. As I said, these types are compartmentalized from the other two triads. So, for type 6, they are disconnected from their heart and gut. They filter everything through their head, but aren't always certain how to feel or act. Type 3 is disconnected from their head and gut, so they filter everything through their heart (public image, in their case). Therefore, they aren't always aware of why (thought) they are doing (body/action) what they are doing, beyond the image of success. This is why these three types are attachment, because their direction in life is determined by external feedback of some sort.

    With all that said, I do not think you are 8-fixed and I personally think type 1 fits you much better. This is also why I no longer think I am 8-fixed, despite my apparent access to anger. I have issues with both sloth and resentment, far more than with lust, as I am a person of habitual inaction with a richer internal landscape of possibiity for action. I am however unsure how much depression and chronic fatigue affect me with that, but I don't think I am lusty enough in the moment to be 8-fixed, otherwise I probably would have been terminated from my job ages ago for actually saying all the shit I want to say.
    Perpetual mood


    “Sometimes I think I have felt everything I'm ever gonna feel.
    And from here on out, I'm not gonna feel anything new.
    Just lesser versions of what I've already felt.”


    - look it up yourself


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  9. #19
    Talk to me. Merced's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hummingbird Spirit View Post
    I had limited time last time but I had also intended to write up the 8, which has a stark difference from the E1. I however also want to compare and contrast them. Over my course of studying I debated whether my anger was more 1 like or 8 like. So I took some time. XD

    "Most Eights have told us that they felt that they had to become "adults" at an early age, perhaps to help bring in money to raise the other children in the family because of an absent father or some other calamity. They may have had to deal with a dangerous environment (such as drug dealers, or street gangs, or some kind of war zone), or with an erratic or violent adult in their home. Other Eights grow up in fairly normal families but may have felt the need to protect their feelings for other reasons. In short, Eights tend to grow up quickly, and survival issues are foremost to them, as if they were asking, "How can I—and the few people I care about—survive in a cruel, uncaring world?" Young Eights soon get the idea that it is not safe to be gentle or giving. These attitudes feel "soft" and "weak" and in their minds only invite rejection, betrayal, and pain. They feel that it is best not to let down their guard, so if there is going to be any nurturing or warmth in their lives, someone else will have to provide it. Eights often report that as children, they struggled with powerful feelings of having been rejected or betrayed. They were typically assertive and adventuresome and got into "situations" that led to being punished frequently. Rather than detach or withdraw from their punishers, young Eights defended themselves against the feeling of rejection with the attitude, "To hell with them. Who needs them? No one tells me what to do!" Of course, like anyone else, Eights want to be loved, but the more they felt rejected and treated like misfits, the more they hardened their hearts. Young Eights may learn to play the role of the Scapegoat (the Black Sheep or Problem Child). In family systems theory, "scapegoats" typically make explicit the hidden problems in a family, through either word or deed. As adults, Eights become mavericks, rebelling against restraints and bucking the system wherever possible. Sometimes the "decision" to steel themselves came when the child felt betrayed by a parent or another significant adult. The child may have been abandoned by the parents in a boarding school, or left with relatives, or had their savings or some other valuable taken from them un fairly. They may also have been the victims of physical or sexual abuse. But because of the gross imbalance of power between young Eights and those who treated them unfairly, they could do little or nothing about it except to make the decision never to allow this to happen to them again. Eights consider betrayal to be a pivotal point in their lives because it marked the death of their innocence and goodness. When their inner core was betrayed by someone important, Eights decided that they would never allow themselves to be vulnerable or innocent again. They would never allow themselves to drop their guard. For a time, Eights may secretly grieve their lost innocence, but eventually they accept this as the way they must be to meet life's challenges. If they have come from backgrounds that were remorselessly threatening, Eights tend to become as remorseless to themselves as they are to others. Once the heart has been buried, even grief over lost innocence can be forgotten."

    again from Wisdom of Enneagram. going to recollect the One description again next to this.
    "Ones tried hard to be good kids: they often report feeling that, as children, they needed to justify their existence. Simply being a child was somehow not acceptable, and many young Ones developed a sense of seriousness and adult responsibility at an early age. They understood that their parents expected a lot from them, and like Threes, they often played the role of the Family Hero. Young Ones generally take on such expectations with great earnestness. For various reasons, Ones experience a sense of being "disconnected" from their protective-figure (who is usually, although not al ways, the biological father). Having another stable adult figure that the child can identify with and move toward gives the child the ability to separate from dependency on the mother and to increasingly sense his or her own individuality and autonomy. If, however, the protective-figure is not adequately fulfilling his role, young Ones sense a fundamental disconnection. They realize that their real or symbolic father does not adequately fit their temperament and needs. This does not necessarily mean that the protective-figure is bad or abusive, but that, for whatever reason, a certain effortless bonding simply does not take place. The result Is a feeling of frustration for the child and the sense that he must "father" himself. In some cases, young Ones respond to chaotic conditions around them by becoming hyper responsible, the "voice of reason" in their families. In this way they are able to establish some sense of autonomy and boundaries—the key issues of their type. In effect, the child says, "I will give myself guidelines. I will become my own father-figure and be my own moral guide. I will police myself so no one else will police me; I will punish myself so no one else will punish me." Ones try to surpass what is expected of them by adhering to the rules so rigorously that no one will be able to catch them in error, thus earning independence."

    1s and 8s both seek independence and coping with a sort of dysfunction. Similar to the other for some reason their family became reliable, causing them to seek independence. They both desire to take on adult responsibilities because of this. But as you can see, there is little in common besides that childhood wise. They choose two entirely different paths to seek this independence and ability to survive. E1 will become the shining light, trying to please that dysfunctional side anyway. They will be so "good", so "right", that no one can criticize them anymore or hurt them. An 8 says "fuck being right to them" bucks them out and becomes as said the "Black sheep" the one who decided to be stronger than them. I think the biggest difference is how 8 is assertive versus how the 1 is compliant. E8 sees no need to please, but takes control. E1 always has the inner struggle, hence why I find it fitting that Merced said 8s hate the world but 1s hate themselves, because the 1 in some way is always seeking the validation that they ARE good and ARE right rather than maybe what that childhood voice of insecurity makes them feel. 8s just said fuck it burn the damn place. There is a HUGE attitude difference.
    My childhood mirrors the e8 description to a tee! I immensely struggled with power dynamics and was scapegoated constantly as a kid.

    And I guess it's inflation, but damn it's hard to value my two cents
    As a kid I was idolizing millionaires and all the presidents

    - Left at London
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  10. #20
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    My overall impression is that you're ENFP with strong extroverted judgment (both 3rd function Te and 6th function Fe).

    Here's a strong indicator of ENFP:

    "1. Establish a "baseline mood"--when you're at home with nothing to do, where are you at mentally and emotionally? What do you notice in yourself? (Note, this is not a mood you inhabit "frequently", but your psychological baseline).

    Had to re-read this one a few times but I think I get the idea. I think my baseline is very forward-focused(?) and ready to do something. I'm constantly thinking about the future I want, the ups and downs of that future, and the path I'll be taking to get there. I think it's that then followed by "why do I feel that way?", hence the interest in typology. Emotionally this can span from excitement to full of dread."

    Thinking about the future generally indicates intuition, and the "ups and downs" approach to it may well be an indicator of Ne. The fact that this is then followed by "why do I feel that way?" suggests that after the intuiting comes Fi.

    Remember, function order is literally a sequential order that the functions tend to go in, so having Fi come as the second step indicates auxiliary Fi (unless it wasn't the second step being described but a step later on than that).

    NFP and STJ are the types most aptly covered by a left-brain/right-brain split. What you and some others in this thread are suggesting is that the left-brain side is your ego, and the right-brain side is alter-ego, but I'm suggesting that it's the opposite and that you're actually right-brained.
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