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  1. #11
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    Hey @Earl Grey if you still remember me. I wanted to ask: "That being said, I fit the image of an enforcer. Think of me as a police officer on patrol. I initially considered Je (Fe, in particular) because of this."

    More on this?

  2. #12
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    More:

    In which way do you criticise:

    "I don't like those people who change their jobs, partners, hobbies, and friends too often. It testifies to a lack of perseverance in their character."

    VS

    "It is infinitesimal to me how often these things change in a person's life. The important thing is whether they are valuable to that person's aims and conducive to furthering his goals."


    In an argument you are:

    "Holding fast to the individual point and its factual relations so that it becomes impossible to reframe it in a way that would go against the overall argument I want to make."

    VS

    "Confounding the individual point with a full tide of lofty images and arguments, so that the individual point becomes inseparable from the overall argument I want to make, and impossible to discuss on its own."


    Then, what causes an issue:

    "I tend to either overindulge in sensory gratification needs (food, candy, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, etc.) or ascetically neglect them."

    VS

    "I tend to be overly worried about whether the course we're on is sustainable, and whether we're doing enough today to prepare for tomorrow."

  3. #13
    Tea. Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittenke View Post
    Hey @Earl Grey if you still remember me. I wanted to ask: "That being said, I fit the image of an enforcer. Think of me as a police officer on patrol. I initially considered Je (Fe, in particular) because of this."

    More on this?
    Yes, I still remember you. I say this referring to how I notice that in groups, I generally can enjoy having some kind of influence on the end decisions and the course of how things go, even if I don't usually like 'taking the wheel', so to speak. I'd say I'm a right hand-man or a 'police offer on patrol' at most. Moderating, for example, is stressful for some people, it is not for me. Especially recently, I found that I took for granted my tendency to speak up in situations; not everyone does that "What do you mean not everyone does this?" This might be at odds with MBTI-Introversion.

    Admittedly, at first, I did not type myself. I was typed as INTJ by my friends (in real life)- because of the Je, liking to organize things, liking to organize people.
    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
    Non mi impugnare senza valore.

  4. #14
    Tea. Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Interesting. Where did you get these questions from?

    I. In which way do you criticise:

    II. In an argument you are:

    III. Then, what causes an issue:
    What issues?


    Thank you for posting these questions. They could be more interesting if they had more clarity.
    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Grey View Post
    Yes, I still remember you. I say this referring to how I notice that in groups, I generally can enjoy having some kind of influence on the end decisions and the course of how things go, even if I don't usually like 'taking the wheel', so to speak. I'd say I'm a right hand-man or a 'police offer on patrol' at most. Moderating, for example, is stressful for some people, it is not for me. Especially recently, I found that I took for granted my tendency to speak up in situations; not everyone does that "What do you mean not everyone does this?" This might be at odds with MBTI-Introversion.

    Admittedly, at first, I did not type myself. I was typed as INTJ by my friends (in real life)- because of the Je, liking to organize things, liking to organize people.
    Hey hey. Glad you remember

    Yeah stereotypical Te, I don't see anything Fe in that. Fe is a whole lot softer, more tactful and less definite than this. Fe is just not about concrete goals like that. More like uhh "people goals" or "relationship goals" if that makes sense. It's just less concrete and definite by its nature.

    I have this stuff too like you describe it. I like the wording "police offer on patrol" lol. And yeah this seems like your extraverted side. My extraverted side is reallllly similar to this. For me it's secondary though, I don't take it as much for granted as you do, but it could be secondary for you too... except it is interesting that you find it hard to imagine not everyone does what you do, so yeah maybe dominant Te and not auxiliary Te...


    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Grey View Post
    Interesting. Where did you get these questions from?
    From an INTJ test (INTJ vs ISTJ) from here INTJ or ISTJ Test - Individual Differences Research Labs

    And I quoted them because I thought they would show Ni of the INTJ pretty well. As far as I understand Ni heh.


    Not necessarily. People have different priorities when it comes to goal-setting. The goal is #1, and if the particular individual is achieving them, then that is what matters, regardless of the way there. Whether or not those methods are questionable (eg, using friends only to further one's social standing, spending too much money on hobbies, sleeping around and cheating on partners) is another topic in entirely. This is also too broad. Many things change. The question is why.
    Yeah sounds totally Ni to me. (Both Ni+Te and Ni+Fe in my experience)


    (...) "Confounding the individual point with a full tide of lofty images and arguments, so that the individual point becomes inseparable from the overall argument I want to make, and impossible to discuss on its own." (point B, overall picture > individual point)

    I am confused. It sounds like tying together a point to a certain, specific situation to make a point. It does not sound 'lofty', unless I am misunderstanding something. Both sentences seem to refer to 2 different forms of discussion / arguments.
    Haha it is interesting you think the first option is pigeonholing. I think "lofty" is relative lol, for people who are not living in Ni all day it does sound lofty (not in a bad way IMO).

    Not sure where "it sounds like tying together a point to a certain, specific situation to make a point" for you, for the latter option.


    When two parties argue about something, it would best to establish a common understanding of the concepts and topic at hand first in order to facilitate a seamless exchange of information, as well as being clear what exactly is being argued for and why. This works, whether talking about a certain point on its own as a concept (point A), or tying it into / as a part of a bigger and relevant, or even hypothetical concept (point B). Let me explain in an example. There can be an individual point / topic- let's say, the humane treatment of animals, or animal rights. Then you can tie that point into a bigger idea, the practical issues of how it plays out in real life, if it is agreeable, feasible, how it works out, if it actually makes sense. In a sense, it becomes 'impossible to discuss on its own' because it cannot be separated from practical reality. I can talk about either, but it must be clear, clarified prior to beginning the discussion/argument.
    This kind of gives me a pause now. The way you say the stuff cannot be separated from practical reality. You're again making me consider a more introverted ENTJ for you lol. Because I can't imagine Ni-dom saying that but I can imagine ENTJ reasoning like that (Te-dom). Te-doms and S types would do that the most, Te and S (both Si and Se) are the most factual functions.


    What issues?
    Well what tends to be an issue in your life, i.e. something that you find hard to deal with, causing difficulties. The first option is inferior Se or at least weak Sensing. Your answer to the latter option sounds like Intuition for sure doesn't stress you out as much and instead, focusing on it is natural for you.


    Thank you for posting these questions. They could be more interesting if they had more clarity.
    I hope I managed to clarify some.

    Anyway, I really am 100% sure by now about NTJ for you.

    Just not sure if INTJ or a more introverted-ish ENTJ. I realised who you remind me of, and it's someone I type an "introverted" ENTJ. Socially a bit more introverted than the stereotype. Also he's a bit cautious and considered. To me he's just too Te to be INTJ tho', even though some INTJ stereotypes do fit him suspiciously well. But he's just in tune with practical reality just fine in a way I've not seen definite Ni-doms do it. Just too effortlessly in tune with it. I'm not sure but I also get this "impression" - too vague sorry and it is hard for me to trust that but it takes my attention very much nonetheless - that your Ni is more like his version of Ni. If I can ever put this into words better, I'll get back here and describe more about it. It's like, you are kind of flexibly considering intuitive issues. Not as absolute as Ni-dom, maybe...

  6. #16
    Tea. Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittenke View Post
    Hey hey. Glad you remember

    Yeah stereotypical Te, I don't see anything Fe in that. Fe is a whole lot softer, more tactful and less definite than this. Fe is just not about concrete goals like that. More like uhh "people goals" or "relationship goals" if that makes sense. It's just less concrete and definite by its nature.
    You have a point. I probably would have been more attuned to the emotional effects if any if I were Fe. I sometimes have an issue where I forget people are people (to my own credit, I tell people to remind me if I start doing that). I have pretty much ruled out Fe for myself now- when I first signed up here, I listed myself as INFJ.

    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
    Non mi impugnare senza valore.

  7. #17
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Grey View Post
    Yes, I still remember you. I say this referring to how I notice that in groups, I generally can enjoy having some kind of influence on the end decisions and the course of how things go, even if I don't usually like 'taking the wheel', so to speak. I'd say I'm a right hand-man or a 'police offer on patrol' at most. Moderating, for example, is stressful for some people, it is not for me. Especially recently, I found that I took for granted my tendency to speak up in situations; not everyone does that "What do you mean not everyone does this?" This might be at odds with MBTI-Introversion.

    Admittedly, at first, I did not type myself. I was typed as INTJ by my friends (in real life)- because of the Je, liking to organize things, liking to organize people.
    Not all of your friends type you as INTJ, as you know.

    I do not see speaking up as incompatible with introversion in any way. I am strongly I, and have no trouble doing it when I have a stake or interest in the outcome. Remember: behavior is often an unreliable basis for typing. One would need to ask why, how, and in what circumstances the person is speaking up. Same for comfort level with moderation, with which I have considerable personal experience. The desire not to "take the wheel" may be more closely related to introversion, but that isn't the same as simply speaking up, and plenty of introverts are quite willing to take the wheel when that seems the best/only way to get something done, or prevent some harm.


    Quote Originally Posted by kittenke View Post
    From an INTJ test (INTJ vs ISTJ) from here INTJ or ISTJ Test - Individual Differences Research Labs

    And I quoted them because I thought they would show Ni of the INTJ pretty well. As far as I understand Ni heh.
    Well, as an Ni-dom, I didn't see this come out in the questions. They seemed to be contrasting things that were not at all independent, in that I would respond with a combination of portions of each answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by kittenke View Post
    Yeah sounds totally Ni to me. (Both Ni+Te and Ni+Fe in my experience)
    Not necessarily, just standard ends vs. means viewpoints. Whether the ends do in fact justify the means is just another way of pointing out that people (all people) will have multiple ends which will need to be balanced against each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by kittenke View Post
    Haha it is interesting you think the first option is pigeonholing. I think "lofty" is relative lol, for people who are not living in Ni all day it does sound lofty (not in a bad way IMO). :)

    Not sure where "it sounds like tying together a point to a certain, specific situation to make a point" for you, for the latter option.
    In my experience of Ni, it makes it possible to frame a fact or set of facts in an entirely different context simply through a shift of perspectives or frame of reference. The more facts are added, the narrower the spectrum of possible options. And yes, none of that seems lofty to me, but then I do it all the time, almost reflexively.


    Quote Originally Posted by kittenke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Grey
    Let me explain in an example. There can be an individual point / topic- let's say, the humane treatment of animals, or animal rights. Then you can tie that point into a bigger idea, the practical issues of how it plays out in real life, if it is agreeable, feasible, how it works out, if it actually makes sense. In a sense, it becomes 'impossible to discuss on its own' because it cannot be separated from practical reality. I can talk about either, but it must be clear, clarified prior to beginning the discussion/argument.
    This kind of gives me a pause now. The way you say the stuff cannot be separated from practical reality. You're again making me consider a more introverted ENTJ for you lol. Because I can't imagine Ni-dom saying that but I can imagine ENTJ reasoning like that (Te-dom). Te-doms and S types would do that the most, Te and S (both Si and Se) are the most factual functions.
    As it see it, the humane treatment of animals is the bigger idea. It is more abstract, theoretical even. Its practical realization represents a narrowing of the focus, to some specific events, practices, etc. Rather than say that the abstract notion cannot be separated from the practical reality, I would say the reverse: the practical reality and how one approaches it cannot be separated from the underlying theory or concept. If it is, your decisions are being guided by the vagaries or exigencies of the moment rather than by some underlying principles or values, and are likely to be inconsistent over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by kittenke View Post
    It's like, you are kind of flexibly considering intuitive issues. Not as absolute as Ni-dom, maybe...
    That sort of flexible use of intuition is Ne, so NTJ of either kind does not apply here.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #18
    Tea. Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not all of your friends type you as INTJ, as you know.
    Indeed. Some say ENTX. //whacked

    Reading through your responses, I agree with them / you explained a few things I wanted to get across. Now, to wait for kittenke to explain, with a few things I'd want to add / ask. These questions are general, so anyone is free to respond.

    Last edited by Earl Grey; 06-06-2019 at 11:28 AM.
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  9. #19
    Tea. Earl Grey's Avatar
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    I'm still waiting. I'm still waiting for the fabled day that someone breaks down sensor types with/for me. Am I that N that no one's ever considered an S-type for me?
    Non mi snudare senza ragione.
    Non mi impugnare senza valore.

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