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  1. #131
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    INFJ Communication:
    Regarding INFJ communication, what I'm hearing is not only "this is how INFJs communicate" but "this is what we absolutely need in order to communicate". To my knowledge, here at TypoC, INFJs are the only type, as a group, to assert that there is a list of criteria that must be met in order for them to be able to communicate. Other type groups might ask for accommodations, but I haven't seen them saying that they aren't able to communicate if they aren't accommodated. Individuals might refuse to talk to other individuals for whatever reasons, but they don't claim that their reasons are representative of their whole type, or say they can't communicate at all because of those reasons.
    That's an interesting observation. To be honest, when I read Fidelia's list of how to successfully interact above, I felt a kind of despair of being able to interact positively with INFJs over time. I'm not going to be absolutely consistent over time; I've gotten better about being more consistent as I've gotten older, but it remains a real balancing act for me. It's a little like trying to step on a lump in the carpet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I just want to say I know how that feels too, and I'm glad you guys are showing some resilience and pressing on in hopes of a positive outcomes. It surprises me, fidela, that you see such disagreement as a sign of your thought process being too much at odds with that person to be worth it. It must be difficult to continue on through all that.

    I often give up on conversations here when I get irritated with a person's post and argument style. I just find myself no longer caring enough about the subject matter to even bother continuing. It's worse when, on top of all that, I get cornered by a Pi expression of perspective, and even though it seems so inaccurate to me, I struggle to find the counter-argument within myself. There's something like kryptonite in it that defeats my ability to think about the issue and discuss it clearly, and this just makes me want to walk away. I imagine there's an equivalent for you guys.
    I certainly feel like I also tend to bow out of threads if they become too unpleasantly conflict-laden. At times I've avoided the majority of the forum, because of the level of ongoing vitriol. I feel like it's been less bad of late generally, but it does seem like more than a couple of INFJs feel themselves to be particularly picked-upon as a group. It would be a positive thing if real discussions could happen without people feeling unfairly singled out (either as individuals or as a group). Still, being human means that some level of miscommunication and irritation is going to happen some percentage of time.

    As far as kryptonite, I feel like I can tend to be "future blind" in a particular kind of way, in that I can tend to avoid seeing the outcome of events as inevitable. I also tend to be bad at seeing long term subtle trends across interactions and contexts. I think the up site for Perceivers is being more aware of the "instantaneous momentum," and being able to tune in accordance with that perception.

    Conversely, I feel like INFJs have a much better handle on the momentum of relationships and interactions (both with individuals and groups). However, I think they struggle more with moment to moment variations.


    Sometimes I get the sense the INFJs experience themselves as each piloting tiny, unstable boats across a deep and mysterious sea. To make matters worse, each person has a storm waiting to be released within. The INFJs therefore want their own storms contained (both for themselves and others on the waters), and want neighbors upon the water who are willing to do likewise. They want neighbors who can help fish them out of the water when they capsize, and get them dried and on course as soon as may be.

    INFPs, on the other hand, tend to be swimming around in the driving rain remarking to those within earshot, "Swimming in a storm is awesome! Don't you just LOVE a good storm?!?" I fear it comes across as total madness to the INFJs.


    [As an aside, the advice for INFP growth isn't too dissimilar than the one for INFJ growth: one has to let reality and different perspectives in. It seems like we are two of the most idealistic types, but with differing visions of how to get to an ideal place. INFPs want each person to work toward their own goal and be respected for it, and then a chaotic but beautiful mosaic will emerge. INFJs seem to want everyone to harmoniously join forces to work toward a goal that will benefit all, creating a wondrous tapestry in which neighbor supports neighbor. (Wow, I think I need a healthy dose of cynicism after typing that paragraph. Ick!)]
    Last edited by Seymour; 09-01-2014 at 03:31 PM.

  2. #132
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    [As an aside, the advice for INFP growth isn't too dissimilar than the one for INFJ growth: one has to let reality and different perspectives in. It seems like we are two of the most idealistic types, but with differing visions of how to get to an ideal place. INFPs want each person to work toward their own goal and be respected for it, and then a chaotic but beautiful mosaic will emerge. INFJs seem to want everyone to harmoniously join forces to work toward a goal that will benefit all, creating a wondrous tapestry in which neighbor supports neighbor. (Wow, I think I need a healthy dose of cynicism after typing that paragraph. Ick!)]
    Maybe I can do the bolded for you. Idealism=/=reality. Life's a bitch and then you die.



    Seriously, though, idealism can be great to strive for as long as you don't fall prey to your own, or someone else's, BS.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  3. #133
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Maybe I can do the bolded for you. Idealism=/=reality. Life's a bitch and then you die.
    *whew* I feel much better. Thanks! :-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Seriously, though, idealism can be great to strive for as long as you don't fall prey to your own, or someone else's, BS.
    I might say "idealism tempered with reality can be great to..." Otherwise, idealism turns into a lot of frustrated rage at people for just being ordinary flawed human beings... that's not a fun place to live.

  4. #134
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I might say "idealism tempered with reality can be great to..." Otherwise, idealism turns into a lot of frustrated rage at people for just being ordinary flawed human beings... that's not a fun place to live.
    Tru dat.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #135
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    That's an interesting observation. To be honest, when I read Fidelia's list of how to successfully interact above, I felt a kind of despair of being able to interact positively with INFJs over time. I'm not going to be absolutely consistent over time; I've gotten better about being more consistent as I've gotten older, but it remains a real balancing act for me. It's a little like trying to step on a lump in the carpet.



    I certainly feel like I also tend to bow out of threads if they become too unpleasantly conflict-laden. At times I've avoided the majority of the forum, because of the level of ongoing vitriol. I feel like it's been less bad of late generally, but it does seem like more than a couple of INFJs feel themselves to be particularly picked-upon as a group. It would be a positive thing if real discussions could happen without people feeling unfairly singled out (either as individuals or as a group). Still, being human means that some level of miscommunication and irritation is going to happen some percentage of time.

    As far as kryptonite, I feel like I can tend to be "future blind" in a particularly kind of way, in that I can tend to avoid seeing the outcome of events as inevitable. I also tend to be bad at seeing long term subtle trends across interactions and contexts. I think the up site for Perceivers is being more aware of the "instantaneous momentum," and being able to tune in accordance with that perception.

    Conversely, I feel like INFJs have a much better handle on the momentum of relationships and interactions (both with individuals and groups). However, I think they struggle more with moment to moment variations.


    Sometimes I get the sense the INFJs experience themselves as each piloting tiny, unstable boats across a deep and mysterious sea. To make matters worse, each person has a storm waiting to be released within. The INFJs therefore want their own storms contained (both for themselves and others on the waters), and want neighbors upon the water who are willing to do likewise. They want neighbors who can help fish them out of the water when they capsize, and get them dried and on course as soon as may be.

    INFPs, on the other hand, tend to be swimming around in the driving rain remarking to those within earshot, "Swimming in a storm is awesome! Don't you just LOVE a good storm?!?" I fear it comes across as total madness to the INFJs.


    [As an aside, the advice for INFP growth isn't too dissimilar than the one for INFJ growth: one has to let reality and different perspectives in. It seems like we are two of the most idealistic types, but with differing visions of how to get to an ideal place. INFPs want each person to work toward their own goal and be respected for it, and then a chaotic but beautiful mosaic will emerge. INFJs seem to want everyone to harmoniously join forces to work toward a goal that will benefit all, creating a wondrous tapestry in which neighbor supports neighbor. (Wow, I think I need a healthy dose of cynicism after typing that paragraph. Ick!)]
    Seymour, I think in many ways your analogy about boats on the sea is very apt. I'm not suggesting that just because that is the way I initially react to the people around me that that is immovable or even the right way. Over the last while, I have been wrestling with how to bend, while still recognizing that the function set that was dealt is still the only one I have, but that it can be optimized. However, it is true that stability and a sense of emotional predictability is probably more needful to me than to many other types of people. Similarly, the freedom to splash and enjoy the storm without restriction is needful to other people and the trick is finding the balance between the two, especially when trying to work together.

    I think perhaps for me, consensus and a group result isn't so important as some writing about Fe seems to indicate, but awareness of everyone's landscape and needs probably is important to me in the process of decision-making.

    I want to make the distinction - the list I wrote was in response to highlander's question about how INFJs will best open themselves up to vulnerability and trust others. It is not and was not meant as a list of requirements for people to successfully interact with INFJs!

    I of course don't represent all INFJs. I also don't expect intense closeness and intimacy with very many people at all. I recognize that even the closest of people to me are not going to be able to be everything I wish, or even that I need at times, which is why it's important to have a variety of people in my support system. It would be impossible and unrealistic for one person to be able to deliver everything. Similarly, they also need a variety of people in their's as I could not provide everything they need. On the other hand, I do believe that those factors (for someone who is seeking to become closer and who wants to see the more vulnerable side of an INFJ) are ones that might be useful to have on their radar.

    I can see from many of the INFP/INFJ discussions that we approach the world very differently. For me, I would be most grateful to any type if they would give me a cheat sheet of what their priorities are, what they value most, and to give me some specific words for how best to relate to them. In short, I guess I would like scripting!!! Not in the sense of governing all interactions and outcomes, but in lighting the way for how to avoid potholes and how to make the other person feel cared for. I suppose that is why I tend to do that in my communications on this subject. It's not so much a matter of me suggesting, "You can only approach me if..." but rather, "These are hot buttons for me, which will likely result in misunderstandings and messes. Asking me specific questions that in your world would be intrusive, would be welcomed and make me feel your care. Here are some examples". I would appreciate the same from INFPs, but I sense that that simply isn't how it works and so my stating how it is for me comes off as bossy, rigid, and expecting everyone to come to me.

    What I wrote was not with the intention of discouraging or judging other people, so much as opening a window to what makes me tick in the hopes that it might be of some use to someone.

    I'm doing what is most natural, which is trying to clarify my reasoning or motivations and am stuck again, because I sense that that is not what is useful to the other parties, but I'm not sure how to deliver what is.

    I definitely relate, Seymour, to what you say about INFJs being good with future and across time patterns, but poorer with moment to moment. My weakness in that area is probably one of the reasons why at least this INFJ feels the need for more control, more predictibility in the people I am closest to, and less emotional surprises, as I am not very good at coming up with either an accurate interpretation of the situation, or a plan for how to deal with it in real time. It's a huge problem. I don't think it is fair for others to have to accommodate that need, but at the same time, without another effective coping system in place, it is a need, not just a preference. So I guess the question is, what works most effectively to make the need for minimal turbulence less important?

  6. #136
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Thanks, @fidelia... I'm mulling over a more in-depth response, but meanwhile I do appreciate what you wrote and the openness and thoughtfulness it shows. Thanks for that, and especially that we come to the table with things we didn't choose, but have to deal with anyway. It helps to hear that, since I certainly feel like that is true for me.

  7. #137
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Really, it's up to each individual how much or how little they want to bend. However, I think it's important to show that there IS a range, and that we're not just doomed to lives of anxiety, mistrust, and misunderstanding.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #138
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    @Southern Kross - I was thinking some more about it what you wrote. (Funny how it helps me define what I think by having the chance to bounce it off someone else.).
    That's what NFPs are good for. (It's depressing how rarely I get to say that )

    I think the issue of disagreement is primarily uncomfortable to me when the objective of the person disagreeing is unclear to me ( they say they are not trying to persuade, help me, inform, etc), so it just seems hostile, or when the person doesn't seem to be on the same "team" as me (there doesn't seem to be goodwill or starting from some common ground).
    This makes more sense. So you need to know from the outset whether that person is "on your team"? Disagreement from someone on the same team as you is different, because they are seen as potentially facilitating some sort of progress and betterment for the team(?). Disagreement from people seemingly "on the other team" is seen as a threat and perhaps part of an attempt to bring down your own team.

    One of the ideas I've been presented with here is that to more Ne and Te users, neither the person's manner of communicating, nor their "qualifications" (track record, trustedness, expertise) are nearly as important as the idea themselves. I can see pros and cons to this. Because this is one of the primary ways I would determine who I could trust or should listen to, even when I know I need to be more open, it is hard for me to know then how I would go about doing so effectively without losing my way of navigation.
    Yes, there are definitely flaws in this. I've been guilty of seizing up some idea that is compelling to me without really gauging the viability of the source. I wouldn't in any way say I'm naive, but I can get temporarily carried away at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Thank you, Southern Kross. I have seen that cornering thing happen at times to various participants.
    Just to be clear I don't think it's necessarily deliberate. It's just a way of communicating that can make it difficult for me to mentally span the conversation or even think for myself - I'm left with nothing else to say.

    I think we do have our equivalent of kryptonite.(I like how you phrased that, btw) For me, it's overload, too much info coming in at one time and I can't process it all and therefore, perhaps misinterpret the poster's meaning or intent.
    Is part of the difficulty that it makes it hard to wade through it all and put things back on course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Your posts about this have been helpful (I remember you bringing this up before). I wasn't aware this was even a thing until you'd pointed it out.
    I sometimes wonder if I tend to overstate it, but I do seem to think that Pi doms/aux have no clue about the degree with which Pe operates on 'instinct' (not sure if that's really the word but it will do). We really are just trying to figure things out as we go along and if there's something that impedes those instincts we're plain useless and can be pretty resentful about it

    I totally realise that I do the same with Judgements, where I inadvertently or lazily shut down the conversation by stating things a little too decisively. I can sometimes see Fe users visibly deflate when the discussion dead-ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I certainly feel like I also tend to bow out of threads if they become too unpleasantly conflict-laden. At times I've avoided the majority of the forum, because of the level of ongoing vitriol.
    I don't like vitriol, but I'm not as threatened by disagreement and heated debate as I used to be. It's when someone starts saying things that goes strongly against my values and/or pushes my buttons that I find it's best to get out of there. I don't get drawn into something where I'm only communicating out of anger and getting stuck in the same old BS, back-and-forth with idiots that goes nowhere - that usually ends with me more angry and frustrated than before and unable to think straight. There's so many threads on topics that I have strong beliefs about that I never post in and maybe never even look at, for fear of the emotional upheaval. The only way around it is for me to go into it and take people on like a ENTJ: cool-headed, nonchalant, irreverent, superior, and then engage in a sort of wry logic-trolling against the fools people I disagree with. This is the only way for me to do it without coming off like some shrill, table-thumping harpy.

    I feel like it's been less bad of late generally, but it does seem like more than a couple of INFJs feel themselves to be particularly picked-upon as a group. It would be a positive thing if real discussions could happen without people feeling unfairly singled out (either as individuals or as a group). Still, being human means that some level of miscommunication and irritation is going to happen some percentage of time.
    They have been singled out too much, yes. I think part of the problem is that the previous threads were never really resolved in a way that either the INFJs or the non-INFJs (primarily NFPs) felt was satisfactory. I felt that I learned a lot, but I can't say that the experience was cathartic.

    As far as kryptonite, I feel like I can tend to be "future blind" in a particularly kind of way, in that I can tend to avoid seeing the outcome of events as inevitable. I also tend to be bad at seeing long term subtle trends across interactions and contexts. I think the up site for Perceivers is being more aware of the "instantaneous momentum," and being able to tune in accordance with that perception.

    Conversely, I feel like INFJs have a much better handle on the momentum of relationships and interactions (both with individuals and groups). However, I think they struggle more with moment to moment variations.
    I agree.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #139
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @YUIOh, we don't need some sixteen different ways of talking. Nope. That would be an inefficient use of our time. What we need is assimilation into the collective. Resistance is futile. You will add to our perfection. @Eilonwy, our resident Borg, will assist you. Prepare for nano probe injection momentarily.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  10. #140
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Ahh! Merging with the fabled "INFJ hive mind." Sounds hawt!
    Haha, at very least it would be interesting. There would be instant understanding!
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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