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  1. #121
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    That's it! I think it is true that most things that INFJs engage in have some kind of purpose or intent to them, even in leisure. The reasons Ene mentioned are a big part of the reason why I both came and remained here.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @YUI I think those are good points and I think you are wise to move slowly. Also, keep in mind that it's not just the Fe you're dealing with in an INFJ, but her Ni is where your Fi is in the functional line-up; and those two, in my experiences, have proven to be a bigger clash point than Fi and Fe (which explains the ENFJ being a better match). Still, I maintain that we are simply wired differently. I respect and admire my INFP friends but wouldn't date or become romantically involved with one, because we would work so hard at communicating that we would constantly drain each other. I personally think that INTJs and INFPs are not usually a good match either. I agree with you that an ENFJ and INFP could be a much better match.

    Edit note: I don't mind Ne riffing. Ni/Ne dominants such as INFJ and ENFP or T, can also do well. This again indicates that the gap is between Ni Dom and Fi Dom.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  3. #123
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    I realized your experience may be different. So, that is why said, in my experience. Everyone's experiences are so varied and unique.

    Yep. We reached the same conclusions.

    I would like to touch on the notion of consensus, mainly because I see this as a new avenue to explore in this whole learning to communicate thing. I have discovered that for me, personally, it's not about consensus. It's about efficiency. For example, you've heard the old saying that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care? In my life I've discovered that, as a general rule (and that may be because I'm from a rural community), people are more willing to implement my ideas if they realize that I value theirs. I don't mean it like a manipulation thing, but more like "I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and hear you out, seek to understand you in hopes that in return, you'll attempt to listen to me and understand me, too." It is a more efficient use of human energy for getting things accomplished. Fe brings concepts out of the abstract realm of Ni and into the physical realm of people. Fe is just the chosen mode of transportation. I think INFJs learn, over time, to gage the responses of others, build a database and predict an outcome. In a lot of ways, INFJs are very Vulcan-like when it comes to their own feelings. As we begin to understand ourselves, we start to corral our feelings and keep them in-check very much like the fictious aliens. So, our personal feelings are there. We do have internalized feelings but they are housed, compartmentalized. I am an idea person, task oriented with the focused intent on bringing abstract ideas into the concrete realm to put into motion concepts that will create something useful to humans in a tangible way. Yet, I'm also people focused, because it's the little pieces that make up the big picture and if al little piece is askew then the whole picture could be in trouble.

    So Ni forms the plan in an abstract reality. Fe is the vehicle that delivers it to the outside world and allows us to communicate it. Ti analyzes it, refines it and prioritises it's implementation process.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14
    Likes SearchingforPeace liked this post

  4. #124
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @Z Buck McFate and @fidelia both your posts are good reads and I identified. I just wanted to jump in and say that I've been guilty of leaving particular threads or not engaging in them at all simply because I lacked the mental energy to do so, but that's not always selfish. It's prioritizing. Like fidelia, my free time is precious and a large part of it goes to reinergizing. If I engage in a discussion and remain engaged it's because I'm either playing around, which i often do on here, to relax my overworked brain, or it's because I feel it is somehow helping someone, including myself, to learn.
    I just want to say I know how that feels too, and I'm glad you guys are showing some resilience and pressing on in hopes of a positive outcomes. It surprises me, fidela, that you see such disagreement as a sign of your thought process being too much at odds with that person to be worth it. It must be difficult to continue on through all that.

    I often give up on conversations here when I get irritated with a person's post and argument style. I just find myself no longer caring enough about the subject matter to even bother continuing. It's worse when, on top of all that, I get cornered by a Pi expression of perspective, and even though it seems so inaccurate to me, I struggle to find the counter-argument within myself. There's something like kryptonite in it that defeats my ability to think about the issue and discuss it clearly, and this just makes me want to walk away. I imagine there's an equivalent for you guys.

    I do make a conscious choice not to use the ignore option for posters I don't like. I don't want to censor people that disagree with me or piss me off. It can be friggin hard to deal with, but I think that it's better for me in the long run.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #125
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    @Southern Kross - I was thinking some more about it what you wrote. (Funny how it helps me define what I think by having the chance to bounce it off someone else.). I think the issue of disagreement is primarily uncomfortable to me when the objective of the person disagreeing is unclear to me ( they say they are not trying to persuade, help me, inform, etc), so it just seems hostile, or when the person doesn't seem to be on the same "team" as me (there doesn't seem to be goodwill or starting from some common ground). You're an excellent example of someone who may experience the world quite differently from me, but is able to communicate those differences in a way that remains productive and welcoming. I know for a fact that I am not nearly as good at doing that for the flip side.

    One of the ideas I've been presented with here is that to more Ne and Te users, neither the person's manner of communicating, nor their "qualifications" (track record, trustedness, expertise) are nearly as important as the idea themselves. I can see pros and cons to this. Because this is one of the primary ways I would determine who I could trust or should listen to, even when I know I need to be more open, it is hard for me to know then how I would go about doing so effectively without losing my way of navigation.

  6. #126
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    INFJ Communication:
    Regarding INFJ communication, what I'm hearing is not only "this is how INFJs communicate" but "this is what we absolutely need in order to communicate". To my knowledge, here at TypoC, INFJs are the only type, as a group, to assert that there is a list of criteria that must be met in order for them to be able to communicate. Other type groups might ask for accommodations, but I haven't seen them saying that they aren't able to communicate if they aren't accommodated. Individuals might refuse to talk to other individuals for whatever reasons, but they don't claim that their reasons are representative of their whole type, or say they can't communicate at all because of those reasons.

    So, what is the community's responsibility towards a whole type as a group, since it seems that INFJs are asserting that they have special needs when it comes to communication? Does the community owe one type more than the equal opportunity that every other type has to state their views and opinions? If I have a disability, is it necessary for everyone to handicap themselves in order to accommodate me, or is it enough that the opportunity and the means are there for me to participate as fully as I'm able?

    And there's this (bolding is mine):
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    One thing about our forum that is fundamentally different than other forums is that it is centered on interaction across types. The other forums focus more heavily on facilitating interaction within types. So, INFJs interact with INFJs. INTJs interact with INTJs. That's the culture they foster, even if the forum has all different kinds of types. We're different. I see this as a positive thing. We get to see how these inter-type conflicts play out.

    I know some people don't really like conflict but we can learn from it. It's useful at times. It can be a good thing.

    Authentic Voice:
    As for natural or authentic voice, I would define that as the tone of a post, which is separate from the content of a post. I've seen individuals of other types ask that their tone be overlooked and the content of their posts addressed, but the INFJ criteria for communication seems to be indicating that the content doesn't matter as much as the tone being acceptable. Or perhaps both tone and content have to be acceptable? In that case, that's not communication, that's a script.

    INFJs leaving:
    Can anyone post a factual number of how many INFJs have left specifically because of communication issues, and what percentage that is of the membership who identify as INFJ? I'm willing to bet that the percentage is small.
    Johari / Nohari

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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #127
    The Bat Man highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Just saw the post above. Personalitypage.com has some interesting material about what goes wrong with the various personality types and how to fix such problems.

    Using the example of INFJs, Personalitypage.com says that Fe is the bridge between internal Ni and the outside world. Thus:

    --In an immature INFJ, Fe tends to be used in service to Ni: Fe is directed outward at the world and is used to shut out or keep at bay those parts of the world that conflict with Ni and its conclusions. As a result, Ni becomes increasingly isolated and goes awry.

    --In order to achieve greater maturity, a more effective use of Fe would be to direct Fe inward and use it to judge Ni and its conclusions and bring them more into correspondence with the outside world. That would bring Ni under the sway of the same "reality checks" that the rest of the world has to obey.

    Here's the link: INFJ Personal Growth

    And by the way, don't shoot the messenger and start arguing with me about it. I'm just repeating what they say at Personalitypage.com.

    Naturally, the same would apply to INTJs, with Te substituting for Fe: INTJ Personal Growth
    I have heard exactly that same thing a out INTJs re Te and Ni. That makes sense.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  8. #128
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Just saw the post above. Personalitypage.com has some interesting material about what goes wrong with the various personality types and how to fix such problems.

    Using the example of INFJs, Personalitypage.com says that Fe is the bridge between internal Ni and the outside world. Thus:

    --In an immature INFJ, Fe tends to be used in service to Ni: Fe is directed outward at the world and is used to shut out or keep at bay those parts of the world that conflict with Ni and its conclusions. As a result, Ni becomes increasingly isolated and goes awry.

    --In order to achieve greater maturity, a more effective use of Fe would be to direct Fe inward and use it to judge Ni and its conclusions and bring them more into correspondence with the outside world. That would bring Ni under the sway of the same "reality checks" that the rest of the world has to obey.

    Here's the link: INFJ Personal Growth

    And by the way, don't shoot the messenger and start arguing with me about it. I'm just repeating what they say at Personalitypage.com.

    Naturally, the same would apply to INTJs, with Te substituting for Fe: INTJ Personal Growth
    BANG!

    Just kidding.

    This was helpful info (and, wow, the INTJ and INFJ pages read a lot alike.) thanks for providing the links.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  9. #129
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I just want to say I know how that feels too, and I'm glad you guys are showing some resilience and pressing on in hopes of a positive outcomes....

    I often give up on conversations here when I get irritated with a person's post and argument style. I just find myself no longer caring enough about the subject matter to even bother continuing. It's worse when, on top of all that, I get cornered by a Pi expression of perspective, and even though it seems so inaccurate to me, I struggle to find the counter-argument within myself. There's something like kryptonite in it that defeats my ability to think about the issue and discuss it clearly, and this just makes me want to walk away. I imagine there's an equivalent for you guys.

    I do make a conscious choice not to use the ignore option for posters I don't like. I don't want to censor people that disagree with me or piss me off. It can be friggin hard to deal with, but I think that it's better for me in the long run.
    Thank you, Southern Kross. I have seen that cornering thing happen at times to various participants.

    I think we do have our equivalent of kryptonite.(I like how you phrased that, btw) For me, it's overload, too much info coming in at one time and I can't process it all and therefore, perhaps misinterpret the poster's meaning or intent.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  10. #130
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It's worse when, on top of all that, I get cornered by a Pi expression of perspective, and even though it seems so inaccurate to me, I struggle to find the counter-argument within myself. There's something like kryptonite in it that defeats my ability to think about the issue and discuss it clearly, and this just makes me want to walk away. I imagine there's an equivalent for you guys.
    Your posts about this have been helpful (I remember you bringing this up before). I wasn't aware this was even a thing until you'd pointed it out.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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