[MBTI General] S descriptions of Ns?

[Zergling]

I think the differences are weaker than portrayed, and therefore, any explanation would rely on superficial characteristics.

This seems likely to me also.

In day to day life, more than any other function pair, "sensing" and "intuition" are both required, since mosts things to do involve both some analysis for figuring things out, and some direct observation/fact memorization to have enough basic information. It's likely that people will develop abilities in both these areas since they are both needed, making preferences harder to detect.

 

[girlnamedbless]

When I think of iNtuitives, these are the things that come into mind:
- head-in-clouds
- philosophical
- vague
- intelligent
- confusing
- need to find deeper meanings

- What do you like about preferring Sensing?
Hmm, this is tough, but I'd say I like it when I have S teachers.. because then I know what kind of essay would please them. Also I value the common sense I have. In addition, I'd like to say I'm good at being realistic and planning things in my life out.

- What do you appreciate about other Sensers?
I appreciate other Sensors because they live more in the present like I do. They are realistic when it comes to advice. My best friend is SJ and she always helps me plan things, so that's cool. Basically I like them for their practicality.

- What do you find negative about iNtuition and iNtuitives?
--Ns are so vague! I like to have things planned out, and when I ask for input and get a response like "whatever," or "I don't know" then it kind of bugs me. Being SJ it's hard for me to have an N teacher, because they tend to be so vague with homework assigments and due dates. Maybe this has to do with J/P too, but N has a lot do with it. An N teacher would say "write a summary on this story, I'll collect it next week sometime.." and an S teacher would say "Read paragraphs one and two and respond to the questions on page 32. This is due May 12th." I know this is slightly exaggerated, but I need those details, specifics, and guidelines when I have to do a project.
--Examples when speaking... this is a big one for me. When an N friend tells me a story, (s)he is likely to just say something and not back it up with an example. For example, my iNtuitive friend was talking about an argument she had with her other friend the other day, and the conversation went down like this:
---Her: I don't know, she's just pissing me off lately.
---Me: Why, what did she do?
---Her: She's being lame, and I don't know what I did wrong.
---Me: Did she do something or say something?
---Her: She's acting different towards me.
---Me: That sucks, did she talk to you about it?
---Her: Yeah, she called me and said I was never there for her, and also she kept saying I was a bad friend to these certain people.
---Me: Ohh, I see what you mean.. I have no idea why she could be doing that...
etc.
So basically, I always have to ask Ns to further explain themselves.. in order to fully understand a situation, I need examples and stories. It takes a lot to get it out of some Ns.. but so I can understand them, I sort of need to. Sometimes I feel like I'm putting words into their mouths to try to understand a situation better. :/

 

[Kyrielle]

- What do you find negative about iNtuition and iNtuitives?
--Ns are so vague! I like to have things planned out, and when I ask for input and get a response like "whatever," or "I don't know" then it kind of bugs me. Being SJ it's hard for me to have an N teacher, because they tend to be so vague with homework assigments and due dates. Maybe this has to do with J/P too, but N has a lot do with it. An N teacher would say "write a summary on this story, I'll collect it next week sometime.." and an S teacher would say "Read paragraphs one and two and respond to the questions on page 32. This is due May 12th." I know this is slightly exaggerated, but I need those details, specifics, and guidelines when I have to do a project.

I'm a little like this with some professors. I had a professor this quarter in art history (she was a pretty good professor, don't get me wrong) who didn't give clear specifications for a research paper she wanted (and I don't need someone to hold my hand through the project, I just like to know the bare minimum expected)...but she said she wanted X number of pages, and then suddenly she wanted Y number of pages, and then she wanted it single-spaced, then double-spaced, then illustrated, then illustrated only if we felt like it...drove me up a wall. I think this is a J thing. Because I do like it when I know what a teacher wants and when they want it. That way, I can see how far I can push the boundaries in the project so I can have fun with it.

 

[Economica]

girlnamedbless, that was a very useful post, thank you so much!

I'd love to hear from some SPs as well.

 

[Totenkindly]

For example, my iNtuitive friend was talking about an argument she had with her other friend the other day, and the conversation went down like this:
---Her: I don't know, she's just pissing me off lately.
---Me: Why, what did she do?
---Her: She's being lame, and I don't know what I did wrong.
---Me: Did she do something or say something?
---Her: She's acting different towards me.
---Me: That sucks, did she talk to you about it?
---Her: Yeah, she called me and said I was never there for her, and also she kept saying I was a bad friend to these certain people.
---Me: Ohh, I see what you mean.. I have no idea why she could be doing that...
etc.
So basically, I always have to ask Ns to further explain themselves.. in order to fully understand a situation, I need examples and stories. It takes a lot to get it out of some Ns.. but so I can understand them, I sort of need to. Sometimes I feel like I'm putting words into their mouths to try to understand a situation better. :/

You're a good friend.

I read your post and laughed, you have such a good understanding (as would be expected, since you're S) of some of the quirks and problems with N types. I come at it from the N side of things, but I totally understand why this is frustrating (partly because the huge majority of my family relationships, aside from pure friendships, have all been with S's).

Your N friend could probably say the same thing to another N and the N would exactly what she meant, because they both operate the context of details, not necessarily the details themselves -- like dropping a large clear "overlay" overtop the facts. You work more with the separate details than with the patterns of details, so you need more of the details explained for you to follow. This seems pretty common for N/S relationships, just for the S to always be asking for some clarity and specifics, while the N is leaping around and can follow many things but has trouble anchoring things in place.

To be honest, for practical reasons, I would probably enjoy an S teacher better in terms of understand expectations, than an N teacher... if I knew I had requirements to fulfill. I do like to know what is expected of me, so I don't have to guess all the time. But then again, the N teacher -- being so flexible with the assignment parameters -- is probably ALSO flexible with the assignment grading, where the S is both more specific with the requirements and thus is much more likely to adhere to those standards when evaluating performance. So it goes both ways -- an N teacher (especially NP) will not provide as specific requirements, but this also means their grading is based on the same amount of flex, usually.

 

[The Ü™]

I think a Judger is more likely to want specifics. Because of their need for closure they want to make sure they understand everything correctly, regardless of their S or N preference.

Being specific about things is more about wanting to come to closure rather than being open-ended.

So I think your description about Sensors wanting everything to be specific is more specifically SJs.

The professors I liked tended to be NJs like myself. I typed my Humanities professor as an INFJ, because his lessons were structured and his class was a meaningful intellectual tea party for me. It was also probably the most I've ever learned in college or in regular high school.

He also shared my views of classes like Philosophy and Humanities ultimately being practical, because they taught people to think and be happy without having material wealth and such.

 

["?"]

I ask because practically every Senser I know has started out identifying as an iNtuitive. I figure that I must be presenting the dimension with a lot of N bias, so in the interests of balance, go ahead and give S preferential treatment.

There is a reason for this. SPs can easily see the big picture, and they do use the other functions as well. This article captures something that I have attempted to convey in other threads:

Extraverted Sensing and extraverted iNtuiting are holistic, analogic perceptual modes. In extraverted Sensing, the individual elements, like the trees in the forest, are seen in rich detail, all at once. Thus concrete patterns are quite likely to be perceived along with the discrete sensory information. This pattern is different from the abstract extraverted iNtuiting perception of the relationships and connections of the trees to the rest of the environment. Both pattern and big picture can be on a continuum from concrete to abstract.

Possibilities - These Artisans-SPs frequently respond to "possibilities" as an accurate descriptor. When we probed deeper, they described seeking opportunities for action, usually what to do next and what will work to solve a problem. They like brainstorming and coming up with variations on a theme, until the process goes on and on and on and gets too far away from reality. Those who prefer extraverted iNtuiting are increasingly excited by the ideas sparked in the process regardless of how far abstracted from reality. Both extraverted iNtuiting and extraverted Sensing focus in the here and now and on possibilities and opportunities. The differentiating factor is abstraction or concreteness.

For this reason, in answering the question whether SPs stay in the moment is as equally relevant to how developed the Ni is for both Ne and Se types.

 

[The Ü™]

Couldn't Thinkers also be considered big picture oriented since they're more interested in the ends than the means?

 

["?"]

Couldn't Thinkers also be considered big picture oriented since they're more interested in the ends than the means?

Unsure who you are referencing your inquiry to Uber, however maybe you're equating being objective with "big picture"? Besides, I think that because the S/N dichotomy reveals how one learns and accept information, then it is this dichotomy which considers the big picture. The T/F dichotomy indicates how we make decisions. Thinkers tend to be objective and potentially impersonal. Feelers give greater weight to the implication of decisions on people. I think that NF types would take acception to the inference that they are incapable of seeing the big picture.

 

["?"]

This is a question for the Sensers. How would (/do) you describe the Sensing/iNtuition dimension to MBTI newcomers, especially other Sensers?

This may be oversimplifying, but what can you expect from a sensing type? I would explain the basic workings this way. Si and Ni are like reservoirs which make their own water or information, and can build up, without effective Te/Fe valves to extract it. On the other hand, Ti/Fi have a constant depleted reservoir which needs a steady intake of water/information, using their Ne/Se valves. Faulty valves will allow the Ti/Fi reservoir to dry up.

 

[The Ü™]

Yeah, you can say that. A Thinker would probably be more interested in getting the job done while the Feeler would first consider the well-being of the individuals.

Though I'm thinking that a "means to an end" outlook is attributed specifically to the NTs in that their mind would be focused on the big picture (as in the N's vision of the future, not the S's view of the environment) but they wouldn't care about stepping on another person's toes to reach that vision.

I've come to believe that the NT's view would be "If you want to make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs."

 

[Economica]

This may be oversimplifying, but what can you expect from a sensing type? I would explain the basic workings this way. Si and Ni are like reservoirs which make their own water or information, and can build up, without effective Te/Fe valves to extract it. On the other hand, Ti/Fi have a constant depleted reservoir which needs a steady intake of water/information, using their Ne/Se valves. Faulty valves will allow the Ti/Fi reservoir to dry up.

Nice analogy. But how does it explain the difference between S and N?

 

[The Ü™]

I wrote something similar to "?"'s analogy. I was stating that both S and N have ways of perception, but T and F give those perceptions meaning (likened to judgment).

If neither T nor F are developed, then perceptions will be taken without the expression of any kind of meaning.

You can notice details in the environment by way of Sensing or you can come up with concepts and ideas by way of iNtuition.

But without a developed Judgment function, we really can't understand what we see or conceive; it just is.

Hence, I don't think an iNtuitive will necessarily look for meaning unless balanced with a T or F function.

A Sensor will also understand meaning based on what they see with their eyes (how and why things work), but only if their Judgment functions are developed. A Sensor with a Thinking preference will likely understand how and why machines work (objective analysis), while a Sensor with Feeling will look at their environment and wonder what it means to them.

I said in a post elsewhere that this is what I think autism is about: an overdeveloped Perception function (either S or N) but underdeveloped Judgment, meaning they can either observe details or conceive notions, but transforming them into something useful or meaningful will require development of T or F.

 

[Economica]

You can notice details in the environment by way of Sensing or you can come up with concepts and ideas by way of iNtuition.

Have you introduced the S/N dimension to any Sensers in this way and have you been successful in getting them to self-identify as Sensers?

 

["?"]

Nice analogy. But how does it explain the difference between S and N?

Actually I think that even those versed in the subject, have a hard time overcoming the fact that Ni/Si and Ne/Se are not that big a difference, in particularly Ne/Se. Lenore Thomson says that ETPs resemble each other quite a bit. Best Fit Types actually thinks that ENTJs and ESTPs have quite a bit in common. I also maintain that ISTPs resemble INTJs more than INTPs, because the Ti-Se and Ni-Te both like complex problems that can be resolved using pragmatism. Both have a need to apply any learned theories, and can both dismiss irrelevant information with ease. Thus, although the differences may be apparent in theory, they're not that easy to discern IRL. Especially with STPs and NTs.

 

["?"]

Though I'm thinking that a "means to an end" outlook is attributed specifically to the NTs in that their mind would be focused on the big picture (as in the N's vision of the future, not the S's view of the environment) but they wouldn't care about stepping on another person's toes to reach that vision. I've come to believe that the NT's view would be "If you want to make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs."

I understand what you are saying Uber, and thought that same way about thinkers for years. However, an example would be when an issue that called for empathy comes into play, such as human rights or environmental issues. A dominant thinker may be able to understand the concept based on principles, however may miss part of the big picture where the human factor should be considered. At that point, the feeler would be capable of seeing the big picture. Another example may be a need to show diplomacy to diffuse a situation, in lieu of stating the unadulterated truth which may only exascerbated things. Thinking types would have limited understanding of this necessity, especially if it violates their principles in understanding the situation. These may be bad examples, but I think that T/F is relative. Besides, maybe I need to get on the same page with you, however I would think that seeing the big picture requires taking in information, not on how you will decide on it.

 

[The Ü™]

I've never really introduced any of the functions to anyone, but I think that way is the easiest.

I've been just noticing a certain flaw that I conceived with the iNtuitive dimension that doesn't make the S and N dimension distinct enough.

Every Sensor I've come into contact with understands the underlying "meaning" of things and they seem just as adept at comprehending events as anyone else.

ST types will see the meaning of systems in their environment, like how and why mechanical things work, but the S that would notice the details is also given meaning with the T function.

Likewise, SF types will see something that is of personal significance. They'll seek to understand something in human terms, like what someone's trying to communicate.

And then in the iNtuitive dimension:

NT types will analyze their own iNtuitive imaginary conceptions but with an emphasis on how something will work and look in the environment, which is aided by a T function.

NF types will have iNtuitive imaginary conceptions like the NT but will want to communicate their conceptions in terms of what they want to say to others. They conceive things in more human terms.

Here's what I think of each types in terms of creative/artistic expression:

The ST artist would express what the S function directly observes from either direct here-and-now experience or memory. As a Thinker, the ST artist will give more attention to form; making sure things are portrayed accurately or if things are in proper perspective and so forth. An ST artist is probably the most realistic artist.

The SF artist would also express what the S function directly observes or for the Sensate emotional rush of doing it, which is directly associated with SF. But as a Feeler, there is more likely to be a personal meaning. Sensing combined with Feeling is inclined to see beauty, which is both concrete and subjective. An SF artist may also be inclined to do abstract expressionism, because there really isn't a conceptualized notion beforehand, but it's a direct expression of the abstract world of feelings, which the SF artist will most certainly find meaning. Art would probably be more impressionistic or expressionistic.

An NT artist would express the N function's mental conceptions, but the T function would not really worry about how it will make people feel. Their attention isn't on the human condition, but more on systems. NT artists are probably least concerned with aesthetics and more concerned with just expressing a brief piece of their complex mental constructs. More attention is given to objective vision. Art will probably tend toward surrealistic and fantasy.

An NF artist would express the N function's mental conceptions, but the F function will consider what their conceptions will mean in human terms. An NF combination will express an imaginative conception but when coupled with the F function, will also wish to make a statement and express an underlying meaning. Art will probably tend toward symbolism or surrealism interlaced with symbolic meaning.

All of these are generalizations, of course, but I was just pointing out that focusing on meaning is probably more related to Judgment functions.

 

[faith]

Usually I had them a printed Keirsey temperament sorter and ask them to complete it.

Without a test or sorter, I just explain abstract and concrete and ask them which they think they prefer. Most people I know are pretty aware of either being annoyed with "useless speculation" or with "boring practicalities".

If not, I might ask them something like...
Do you prefer spend more time talking about what someone actually did, or theorizing about the significant meanings behind their actions?
Do you experience life mostly through your hands and actions and physical senses, or do you experience life mostly in your own mind?
Is it worse to have your head in the clouds, or to be in a rut?

I generally already have an opinion about whether the person is an S or an N, and I'll sometimes word the questions so that the type I think they're not sounds better than the type I think they are. If they choose the "less attractive" type, then I take it as a stronger confirmation than if they'd chosen the "more attractive" type.

 

[proteanmix]

Yeah, you can say that. A Thinker would probably be more interested in getting the job done while the Feeler would first consider the well-being of the individuals.

How is that not also part of "getting the job done"? A happy worker is an effective worker.

 

[Nighthawk]

How is that not also part of "getting the job done"? A happy worker is an effective worker.

Very true ... although it took me quite a while to learn that ... mostly though experiencing unhappiness myself at work. How about this one?

Thinkers tend to see logical consequences of actions, whereas Feelers tend to see the affect of the actions on people.