[MBTI General] Should ISTP and ESFP both be SP Artisians grouped within the same temperament or not?

[RaptorWizard]

Here's some comments of mine taken from The ESFP "stupid" myth. thread:

I approve of this myth - even if some have higher IQs than my own (114), their orientiation to think at many levels and maintain higher focus won't ever be completely set.

I don't think you could find one famous ESFP philosopher in the entire history (and even unknown past) of the human race!

Still, it doesn't make them bad or unecessary people, it's just that their abilities and inclinations rest outside my zones of interest.

Well, not only are many not interested in topics such as metaphysics, philosophy, cosmology, enlightenment, and such, but they also quite often fight against progress in those areas. If there's one thing worse than a closed-minded person, it's a closed-minded person that closes our horizons. Like I said, they have their own intelligence, but it's in things of more mundane natures.

If an ESFP wants to tell me something of value, or better yet, let me tell them something of value, then I'll open up more; but until then, my attention remains focused elsewhere. You confuse me discounting other people with me not listening to them. I try to factor everyone's opinion, and I don't believe in destroying the rights of other people. We each deserve chances to be heard out and acknowledged, but some people (like general ESFPs) are less likely to have something or as much available for integration. They can do other things, like leading people, or throwing parties, and so forth.

Yes - if my mom's correct, my 17 yeard old sister is an ESFP.

I suppose I can depict her attributes here vaguely: She's quite popular and good at managing large groups of people. She's very practical and knows what will or won't work. She is very interested in outward success, balances efficient completion of required tasks with having fun. She loves politics, and has very strong opinions not too subject for change.

You are free to believe whatever you wish; I'm just presenting my worldview - whether or not it's accurate is very open to debate.

You actually have a good point about me thinking in terms of absolutes, maybe that isn't holistic enough. Still, it fits my own observations and experience that ESFPs, in general, do those things.

But that doesn't make them wiser or more able to develop great ideas; it just means they're better problem solvers and have a faster wit.

 

[Riva]

Any new member or guest reading this would assume that an intj started this thread; adding to the misguided view people have on INTJs.

But that doesn't make them wiser or more able to develop great ideas; it just means they're better problem solvers and have a faster wit.

Please do tell us what wise and great ideas you have discovered?

Intelligence I believe should not be a comparison; it should be the ability to grasp/understand and to solve/innovate. Don't ascribe to intelligence what most education systems expect from children or by the ability to hold your breath and puke a cosmology thread that goes in circles and at the end of the day say nothing much.

This thread is a rant; judging people by aspie standards and jealously throwing tantrums for having poor social skills.

 

[wolfy]

Unless you create a new system. Yes.

 

[WALMART]

ST's and SF's, like NT's and NF's. Drawn like that it seems fair.

 

[Standuble]

Rather than ST and SF there should be NP and NJ.

 

[Jeffster]

Here's some comments of mine taken from The ESFP "stupid" myth. thread:

I approve of this myth - even if some have higher IQs than my own (114), their orientiation to think at many levels and maintain higher focus won't ever be completely set.

I don't think you could find one famous ESFP philosopher in the entire history (and even unknown past) of the human race!

Still, it doesn't make them bad or unecessary people, it's just that their abilities and inclinations rest outside my zones of interest.

Well, not only are many not interested in topics such as metaphysics, philosophy, cosmology, enlightenment, and such, but they also quite often fight against progress in those areas. If there's one thing worse than a closed-minded person, it's a closed-minded person that closes our horizons. Like I said, they have their own intelligence, but it's in things of more mundane natures.

If an ESFP wants to tell me something of value, or better yet, let me tell them something of value, then I'll open up more; but until then, my attention remains focused elsewhere. You confuse me discounting other people with me not listening to them. I try to factor everyone's opinion, and I don't believe in destroying the rights of other people. We each deserve chances to be heard out and acknowledged, but some people (like general ESFPs) are less likely to have something or as much available for integration. They can do other things, like leading people, or throwing parties, and so forth.

Yes - if my mom's correct, my 17 yeard old sister is an ESFP.

I suppose I can depict her attributes here vaguely: She's quite popular and good at managing large groups of people. She's very practical and knows what will or won't work. She is very interested in outward success, balances efficient completion of required tasks with having fun. She loves politics, and has very strong opinions not too subject for change.

You are free to believe whatever you wish; I'm just presenting my worldview - whether or not it's accurate is very open to debate.

You actually have a good point about me thinking in terms of absolutes, maybe that isn't holistic enough. Still, it fits my own observations and experience that ESFPs, in general, do those things.

But that doesn't make them wiser or more able to develop great ideas; it just means they're better problem solvers and have a faster wit.

Are you talking to yourself?

I don't know what your topic title has to do with your post, since it just sort of sounds like a semi-rant about ESFPs, specifically your sister.

I think ESFPs are the most open-minded type there is. But of course we all mature at different rates.

Not having interest in the same things you do does not make one closed-minded.

 

[RaptorWizard]

What can I say? I'm a very talented individual - and I'm a judgmental tyrant.

 

[Jeffster]

What can I say? I'm a very talented individual - and I'm a judgmental tyrant.

You're not still thinking you're ISTP are you?

 

[HongDou]

Rather than ST and SF there should be NP and NJ.

Dunno, I relate a lot more to an ENFJ than, say, an INTP even if I'm closer to the latter functionally. I think the current temperaments are fine though. Oooh, or EP, EJ, IP, and IJ. That would be interesting.

Anyway RW, since I'm assuming this will inevitably lead to discussion of your type harhar, you seem more INTP than ISTP to me. Everyone has their tastes but you seem very grounded in looking at things from a certain framework (Si) - specifically philosophical. That, and your ideas seem externally influenced and quickly expressed (Ne) than internally filtered and drawn out (Ni). And you're not an INTJ at all; I don't see any Te in you anywhere. You're all about that Ti. Enneagram wise, 5w6 is a yes. sx/so is a no. I liked when you had so/sp out there since a large majority of your posts relate to spreading your knowledge among humanity, contributing what you can for the progression of society as a whole. And you're too formal and distanced to be so/sx - even when your posts are more casual it seems like you're trying to make them so. Don't worry, formality is a good thing if you want people to take your ideas seriously.

 

[RaptorWizard]

You're not still thinking you're ISTP are you?

I think [MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] explained sufficiently well why that isn't the case.

Anyway, if you want to get revenge in any way, I'm up for the challenge!

 

[Jeffster]

I think [MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] explained sufficiently well why that isn't the case.

Anyway, if you want to get revenge in any way, I'm up for the challenge!

lollerlol, revenge for what? I like it when ESFPs get mentioned. It sort of activates me.

 

[The Great One]

Yes because both types use the function "Se".

 

[Jeffster]

Yes because both types use the function "Se".

Yeah, we both Se stuff.


*pssst* The Great One, I didn't want to embarrass you in front of the others, but the word is spelled "see."

 

[skylights]

My brother and his best friend are, respectively, ISTP and ESFP.

In some ways they are like twins.

They are both action-oriented, observant, always open to new experiences. They are both optimistic, present-oriented, and spontaneous. Both are pragmatic and hands-on in approach. They both excel at their respective interests - science for the ISTP; language for the ESFP - but they also both prize their leisure time. Both are very independent and willing to take risks in the name of payoff. Both are naturally gifted at leveraging exactly how far they can push something to get the best result. Both are generous and freedom-loving. Both are devilishly charming.

I think it is fair to group the types together, though no better than any other equivalent grouping. ISTP could just as easily be grouped with INTP and ESFP with ENFP, or ISTP with ISTJ and ESFP with ESFJ.

The point of the system is to have equivalent multidirectional dichotomies, after all.

I also think it speaks to the lucid perception, open-mindedness, easygoingness, and pragmatism of ESFPs, how [MENTION=4358]Jeffster[/MENTION] responded to this thread.

 

[The Great One]

Yeah, we both Se stuff.


*pssst* The Great One, I didn't want to embarrass you in front of the others, but the word is spelled "see."

No it's not. It's Se (extraverted sensing).

 

[Jeffster]

No it's not. It's Se (extraverted sensing).

 

[Poki]

What can I say? I'm a very talented individual - and I'm a judgmental tyrant.

Lol at talented...not based on the op.

Your post didn't even begin to convince me that ESFPs don't belong side by side with me. My IQ is around 155-165 and I will gladly stand next to the ESFPs I know as artisans and damn good ones.