[MBTI General] NT seeking SP tactical advice to position oneself in workplace

[Usehername]

Hi SPs and others! :hi:

Without going into detail, I am currently in a bureaucratic institution and I am seeking to position myself for career success.

I am undoubtedly willing to work hard, but I also don't want to be the person who will hoop-jump through every stupid little thing to get there. I like having a life and not working 100 hour workweeks.

I want to tactically and strategically position myself. In other words, I'd like to choose my commitments carefully and look for ways to leverage my time and effort. I'm much better at the long-term strategies than the more practical and immediate strategies.

I'd love any advice from SPs or others who feel they have wisdom and experience.

TY!

 

[rav3n]

If you're in academia, I don't know anything about it, as it relates to a work environment.

But when it comes to corporate bureaucracy, networking helps. You want to get your brand out to people who can help you move up the ladder. You want to become the first name that comes to mind, when an opening becomes available. Better yet, you want management to create openings for you.

 

[Thalassa]

The practical and immediate strategies I apply are generally more short-term based than long-term based, and tend to do with knowing how to manage particular situations and get myself in and out of them...like, I have no money, shit what do I do...this person is aggressive, I should do this...this is a blah blah blah situation, I do this now to slip in and out of this situation.

I've always managed to get through. At one point I believed this was Ne ingenuity, but it very well may be the tactics that Keirsey speaks of SPs having. I know how to fly by the seat of my pants and win (well maybe not ALWAYS win, but at least manage without failing or giving up what you really want).

That's the main thing: you have tert Fi so you should be able to prioritize what you really want, and by that rule create your boundaries. As an INTJ it may be more difficult for you to maneuver socially, but it does help to know who your friends are and who your enemies are and to act accordingly.

I honestly don't know what to tell you because I'm feeling like the tactics I use to get through my life, which are primarily to promote my own independence, survival, comfort, and the survival and comfort of people I love, probably don't apply to your academic environment.

I would take Jenaphor's advice about networking, for sure. Also, assessing where you can cut corners and get away with it. That's how you keep yourself from jumping through hoops and working long hours is knowing which things that it's okay to not be thorough with, and which things actually need that thorough attention.

I'm not sure I'm helping at all. I've never been in your exact situation, but good luck.

 

[Halla74]

If you're in academia, I don't know anything about it, as it relates to a work environment.

+1, but if I had to go out on a limb, there is a chance that academic institutions (especially those that are State Universities) have "Silos" as the core elements of their organizational charts, and have a very hierarchical, beauracratic, inflexible workflow.

Private universities? I couldn't even guess as to how they function. Maybe more like private companies, maybe a hybrid between public org. vs. private corp., I honestly am not qualified to speak to this.

But when it comes to corporate bureaucracy, networking helps.

Yes it does!
Go to the silly little luncheons on odd holidays, and better yet bring some bad ass dish of your own. You will achieve immediate street credibility with such simple acts, I assure you. I used to bake three huge pans of Amish Friendship Bread every 3-4 weeks, and always made sure I dropped a plateful that contained some of each variety at a Bureau other than my own. Guess how hard it is for me to get a conference room when I need one? Not hard at all. How hard is it for less participatory people? Well, their experience is different from mine, that's all I will say.

You want to get your brand out to people who can help you move up the ladder. You want to become the first name that comes to mind, when an opening becomes available.

THIS! Be the idea person. Get staffed to the most high-profile, mission critical project of the organization (usually run in cross functional teams, with staff from each Bureau) and when people get stuck in their tracks, stand up, pick up a marker, and draw out a solution to the problem as you envision it, and state something simple, like:

"OK, we've got a few different possibilities to explore to solve this problem. Let's examine on potential solution on the whiteboard, so everyone can see the same information."

You are now a celebrity, LOLZ!!!!

Better yet, you want management to create openings for you.

THIS is the BEST!!! My last two jobs were "new positions" created for me, from an existing vacancy that was not satisfied
With every job: Capitalize on your strengths, and minimize your weaknesses (while you develop them!).
FACT: The best paying, most interesting jobs are hardly EVER advertised.

Great advice, Jenaphor!



-Alex

 

[rav3n]

[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION].

Classic, classic example of the difference between an ESTP who uses Ti and an eNTJ who uses Te! Thanks for expanding my shorthand by providing examples and techniques of how to get there!

 

[Halla74]

[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION].

Classic, classic example of the difference between an ESTP who uses Ti and an eNTJ who uses Te! Thanks for expanding my shorthand by providing examples and techniques of how to get there!

You are very welcome!
Thank you for summarizing my wordy passasges of bibble-babble into useful information!
We complement each other well, yes we do.



-Alex

I am undoubtedly willing to work hard, but I also don't want to be the person who will hoop-jump through every stupid little thing to get there. I like having a life and not working 100 hour workweeks.

I forgot to address this, and it is a very important topic, especially for younger people who are commonly exploited by old, lazy, fat people.


(1) Working overtime ALL THE TIME is NOT good or YOU or your CAREER. Your efforts will be taken for granted, because that is what you ALWAYS do.

(2) Working overtime occasionally, is expected in most positions considered to be of gainful employment. How do you determine when the "real overtime" is and when the "unnecessary overtime is?" Here is a good rule of thumb. If your boss is working overtime, then you might ought to as well, unless your boss is a total fuck up and unable to say "No" to every assignment that comes his way, when he should be asking for more staff.

(3) In general, if there is an organizational perception of possible failure on a project you are working on, for a given deliverable/milestone, and you think you can "perform a miracle" by burning a little bit (an evening, maybe two) of your personal time, a few times per year (once per quarter is my rule of thumb), do so, but make sure your efforts are documented as follows:

----(3a) Send out an e-mail when you begin with an attachment of the document/deliverable in its current state to the relevant players (Cc your boss, of course, if they are not directly involved with the project) when you begin your overtime (Let's say 5:10 PM)

----(3b) Send out an e-mail when you complete your work for the evening to the same people you notified when you began, and attach the work with your reccommended revisions/changes, and a bulleted list of what they are in the e-mail (Let's say 10:10 PM).

If you are on point, and the next day hailed as a hero, and some nit-picking beauracrat doesn't edit your work to death subjectively in an effort to claim it their own, your work will get you recognition, most likely.

Sidebar: When I become aware that people are trying to steal my work, I blast them for it, sometimes in private, sometimes in public , sometimes in e-mail, sometimes all three, it depends on my mood, which is why people at the office typically don't fuck with me, because they know (a) I WILL FIGHT BACK, and (b) they have NO IDEA what the degree of my retaliation will be. Plagiarism is to be frowned upon, especially by academics. If it is wrong in the classroom, then it is wrong anywhere, period. The problem is, in many public organizations, there are always a few petty, lazy, little slimebags who survive by by felching the work of others. If such things do happen with your well intended efforts, then you might want to look for another place to work.

----(3c) If you can get the overtime "approved" and be either (i) paid for it, or (ii) offered an equivalent number of hours of time off in return, then do so, but this means you are most likely asking for permission to do so BEFORE you perform the work.

----(3d) Even if any overtime you do exert does not result in a direct effort to promote you within the organization, there are other intangible benefits that it may bestow upon you that you will not immediately realize, yet that are also VERY important: (i) You will be less likely to be targeted during a layoff, as you are a motivated employee producing good results, and (ii) You might just learn something that you didn't know before, that you can put in your resume, and that another prospective employer will value enough to hire you later on. I've benefitted from both in the last 17 years.

Cheers!



-Alex

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Also, assessing where you can cut corners and get away with it. That's how you keep yourself from jumping through hoops and working long hours is knowing which things that it's okay to not be thorough with, and which things actually need that thorough attention.

I work closely with an ISFP who does this, Marmie. It's good advice. However, if Usehername's job is directly linked with supporting other people then I would tread carefully here. Cutting corners can heap a lot more work on their desks which could breed resentment in the long term. I know because I've had to suck up her slack many times. Nobody says anything about it. But about a month ago, that ISFP tried to go after a promotion and was shot down because higher ups asked her co-workers what they thought of the idea of her in a leadership position and our individual consensus was that she had a lazy and manipulative work ethic. However, if this doesn't apply to Usehername's job then it could be an energy saver. And Usehername could use that elsewhere to be more beneficial.

What I've seen is people who get promoted are competent workers (not necessarily the hardest workers) but they are very well liked. They are always willing to lend a helping hand. If you can get other people to sing your praises or stand out among the rest. You got yourself on a fast track. Also, some jobs just don't have room for advancement. So maybe if you see an area of this bureaucracy where you have more chance of being noticed - go there. Even if you don't like it.

 

[ICUP]

Without going into detail, I am currently in a bureaucratic institution and I am seeking to position myself for career success.

(I think in order to have an opinion, I would have to know where you stand (what position you hold and in what business), and where you are looking to go (is it management or to another place)?)

But, in general.......
I've known instances where networking worked. The person got a job because of someone they knew. Then, an opening became available, and they were promoted. Many companies promote from within, but they won't do so until an opportunity becomes available. If you have shown dedication and ability for the position at hand, you will be promoted. It does seem to take alot of hard work. I don't think it takes someone who bends-over at every turn, but it does take someone who, when push-comes-to-shove, will work a few extra hours in return for a few off later.

Some people will never be promoted, regardless of how many hours they work, because they don't have ability or competency. Others will be promoted quickly, because they prove they have the answers and can do the job.

Watching my ENTJ, he states his opinions always, the operators don't listen, and they find out later, he was right. Time after time..... they remember this, and over time, they learn to trust him. He knows his stuff. He has made himself indispensable. He finds solutions, solves problems, has the right opinions, and people come to him to be "father hen". I think that no matter how competent I am, I couldn't do what he does. (In other words, I wouldn't be a good manager, and don't consider it to be my talent.) It seems that no matter how well others can do, when some personalities are put into manager roles, they just don't do as well and don't enjoy it. I would rather be doing stuff he doesn't enjoy. LoL.....

 

[1487610420]

(1) Working overtime ALL THE TIME is NOT good or YOU or your CAREER. Your efforts will be taken for granted, because that is what you ALWAYS do.

(2) Working overtime occasionally, is expected in most positions considered to be of gainful employment.

This can be tricky. In some industries, like the IT, where outsourcing is the word of the day, usually under the umbrella of fake consultancy companies, that simply take the social burden out of big corps, projects are often won on the price cut that results from the manager squeezing in unrealistic work hours, the team then has to deliver. And if someone isn't up for it there's a dozen more willing to take his/her place.

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1tj2zJ2Wvg"][/YOUTUBE]

 

[Halla74]

This can be tricky. In some industries, like the IT, where outsourcing is the word of the day, usually under the umbrella of fake consultancy companies, that simply take the social burden out of big corps, projects are often won on the price cut that results from the manager squeezing in unrealistic work hours, the team then has to deliver. And if someone isn't up for it there's a dozen more willing to take his/her place.

Hey Phobik!

I worked in the private sector IT industry in the U.S. for over ten years, and know exactly the tactics you speak of.
Ultimately that is why I left it; because I will not be surrounded by a cadre of liars and their staff of slaves.
There are some very cool software companies to work for, but many have embraced the abusive practices we have both witnessed as commonplace.

The reality is though, that even in the toughest of industries, there is a certain measure of "artificial stress" that is manufactured by management (aka "mock deadlines") in order to create additional slack into the project schedule.

At some point you have to decide when to draw the line, and determine when "enough is enough."
That moment in time came for me when my second daughter was born.
I had to take a second job as my wife wished to stay at home with her and our eldest as long as possible.
I also wanted to bond with my new daughter.
So, I picked up a job as a waiter at a BBQ restaurant.
Then I started getting entrepeneurial and did anything from cleaning houses, DJ-ing at a local bar, and even landscaping here and there.
There were points in time where I was doing 3-4 kinds of work in a given month to keep our cashflow positive.

If you are a salaried employee, every hour per week you work past forty is an immediate reduction in your annual pay.
So, I emplore everyone to find a vocation, and an employer, that allows them to maintain a harmonious work/life balance.
No one can live without this in the long run, so it is best to find it as early as possible in your career.
Just my .02.

Nice to see you around, Bro!



-Alex

 

[ICUP]

This can be tricky. In some industries, like the IT, where outsourcing is the word of the day, usually under the umbrella of fake consultancy companies, that simply take the social burden out of big corps, projects are often won on the price cut that results from the manager squeezing in unrealistic work hours, the team then has to deliver. And if someone isn't up for it there's a dozen more willing to take his/her place.

That's nasty. Eek.

My S.O. does work extra hours at night sometimes, but then he sleeps in the next morning, and goes in late. He doesn't expect anymore than that from anyone else, either. If something big happens, like a move, everyone has to work more, but that's not the general occurrence.

He is always the manager that is negotiating more slack for everyone lol......He complains about the istj's who are constantly bending-over and getting upset over every-little-thing.

He does set "deadlines", to keep everyone on track, per the norm, but none of the programmers ever reach them lol..... These programmers do not even come into the office; they work from home, and they cannot easily be replaced. They have alot of experience with the product, and it's a gigantic piece of software that is maintained by them, with new mods being written to it constantly.

The company I speak of does have other projects going on, where programming is outsourced, but these dorks just spent several years on a project, only to find that the finished product does not run. lmfao. In order to get it to run, it would take several years of work done by experienced American programmers on this team. So, I think at least a few companies are figuring out that 25 cheap monkeys does not 1 expensive, experienced genius make...... The tides are turning for this company, anyways.

 

[Usehername]

TY for the advice, everyone! TY especially for the concrete examples, Alex! I'll be using the magikwhiteboardmarker strategy, undoubtedly!

(And I'd welcome any more points of view or anecdotes from others.!)

 

[danseen]

I'm an NT (INTP to be exact), but I'd say getting ahead is part what you know, who you know and how well you can do it.

Get allies in your own department and others who can vouch your case. This is key in internal promotions, since people choose people they nkow over those who they don't.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

The skills that generally get me noticed in a work place are:

-Ability to be a leader. Awareness of surroundings. I look for areas that can be improved and improve them. I consistently look for areas that need work, and I work at them; or if put in a position where I see multiple areas requiring work that need to be done at the same time, I delegate. I also prove my competence in my job/skill. I take pride in my work. Working as a team. I assist others with their work or with their questions regarding work. I take the time to show new people the ropes without being asked. I often do a lot of work that isn't asked of me, but is certainly needed. Initiative. Being a self starter. I bring my ideas or concerns to management. I work hard, but I also play hard. I think Se types are naturally gifted at bringing play to work. Organization/time management: knowing what is most important, and what can be put off. Making use of down time.

 

[Poki]

My advice is simple. Don't play games, be damn good at what you do and show it through work. Has always worked for me. Every job I have had I have moved up pretty quickly and and have had positions created and rules bent for me. I have nothing else as I refuse to play beauracracy crap. Hell, I am known to ignore and put off requests from my director, so I am far from a suck up. I basically become the expert.

 

[jewelluckystar05]

So true, the way I position myself is I remember to make eye contact and pay attention to their body language when people praise how long I worked on something or for being outgoing and approachable after having seen person after person exhibit radical changes and poof, talk about work, work, work, and fitting in at work to the point nearly everyone they come in contact with eventually rolls their eyes or tells the person to leave work at work.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

what kind of problems do you have?