[MBTI General] Are ISFPs more N-ish than INFPs?

[Thalassa]

for example, a much lower percentage of Intuitive types "follow the herd" if you will. that's not saying that Sensors are herd animals that run off the cliff together, but what it is saying is that Intuitive types are more introspective (this trait however is a direct result of Intuition, though it can also come from Ti or Fi). introspective people are more likely to come to their own decisions and thus follow the crowd much less of the time.
Sensors on the other hand, aren't necessarily blind followers, but they are more likely to think "no need to reinvent the wheel" so to speak. thus, it might seem more logical to follow the decisions of the group in less important situations as long as it works.

You don't know many ISTJs or ISFPs do you? How abut ISTPs?

I'm sorry Sir Elfboy, but with this statement here you just don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're stereotyping people into S and N for completely ludicrous reasons.

 

[Elfboy]

You don't know many ISTJs or ISFPs do you? How abut ISTPs?

I'm sorry Sir Elfboy, but with this statement here you just don't know what the hell you're talking about. You're stereotyping people into S and N for completely ludicrous reasons.

it's not stereotyping if it's speculative. it becomes stereotyping when it is believed. that is why I make threads like this, because I have a lot of crazy theories and need to check them with the outside world because sometimes they're just insane

 

[OrangeAppled]

Ni seems more "N" than Ne does - to me, at least. Ni digs in deep to extract the entire meaning, whereas Ne seems to bounce around and skim the surface. ISFP has Ni, INFP has Ne.

People greatly overrate the tertiary function in terms of how it affects the personality, IMO. ISFPs don't prefer Ni, they prefer Se, and that will prove a much greater influence on their visible personality. The tertiary is an inferior function, one which often manifests itself negatively.

As a Tertiary Function, Ni typically leads ISPs to suspect others of hypocrisy and cheating and putting on appearances aimed at exploiting people's credulity--especially hypocrisy inherent in social institutions. Sometimes ISPs draw upon Ni to find ways to throw a monkey wrench into social systems that call them into some kind of obligation: to respond in ways that don't make sense within the system's explicitly stated ways of interpreting behavior as cooperative or hostile (but are indeed hostile).

Consider Se traits now:
- Life is determined by impressions received from outside, to which they react with instinctual impulses
- Facts perceived through the senses are, for people of this type, the only reality.
- They never linger over reflections and principles; they are, to an extreme degree, realists.
- They don't feel any need to evaluate their experiences in any systematic way, but their reactions drive them from one sensation to the next.
- Recognizes the wealth of ancestral experience & understands the meaning of traditional forms better than do individuals of other types, finding it difficult to develop other ways.
- Instinctive aspect in adaptation to the community is also expressed in the faithful maintenance of custom and tradition
- They feel at home in the world, accept things as they are, and know how to adjust themselves to circumstances.
- Strongly reactive. If an object catches their attention, they at once seize hold of it, or they go after it, and study it from all sides, repeating this reaction again and again over a long period of time.
- Such a child needs to have a world of forms, colours and tones. He wants to sniff at every flower, and can with difficulty restrain his impulse to gobble up the things that tempt him.
- Their originality finds expression in a truer and less prejudiced view of facts than others take, with the result that they may also discover fresh facts
- A tendency to expect too little of themselves, since they are very little aware of their own aims and possibilities.
- Stick to experience, empiricists par excellence
- For the sake of special sensation, they pursue all kinds of things which otherwise would not interest them. Not satisfied with a simple pursuit of instinctual gratification. They seek intense and unusual sensations, not only those which are pleasant and easily attained.
- Ideals are directed almost exclusively towards the external, sensory side of life, with the uncomplicated individuals of this type having little inner life
- Doesn't lead exclusively to personal satisfaction of sensuous desires, but can drive him to dedicate his powers to service of a group he identifies with, even to sacrifice himself for it (ie. instinct to protect family physically).
- A great many so-called “ordinary” people belong to this type. If they do create any impression, it is more owing to their success in making an art out of life than to any special qualities.
- Are in general conservative in their practical life, if they see no prospect of advantage in change
- Good observers, often good storytellers, good at practical professions
- Includes many people of good taste, who have developed appreciation of the subtler pleasures of life into a fine art.
- Often capable of discussing problems and theories of life, but more for the pleasure of the discussion than out of interest in the actual problems

Here, you see words/phrases like instinct, ordinary, practical, pleasures, realists, facts, not seeking change, accept things as they are, etc, being used to describe the Se type, and this will apply to ISFPs in varying degrees, & will be more apparent than the opposite function Ni. It gives the impression of someone who is independent & spontaneous in ways, sure, but also not seeking change for its own sake (which tends to be idealistic, not realistic) & focused on making everyday life pleasant & interesting for themselves & their family. The person seeks novel sensory experience, but not necessarily new ways of doing/thinking as the N type often seeks.

----

Likewise, Si in the tertiary for the INFP is not a great influence on their personality. It's an inferior function that will pop up in very limited ways, ways which don't greatly influence their mindset nor behaviors. After all, Si is opposite to Ne, just as Ni is opposite to Se, and so one has to be repressed for the other to play a major roe.

This is inferior Si, but I don't doubt it's not that much different in the tertiary for the INFP (at least, this rings true for me):

Where Si occupies the inferior position (as it does for those with dominant Ne), it is strongly tainted with unconscious contents. In these cases, Si may manifest as negative/malevolent images of eternal tendencies in people and situations that will not change. Such tendencies may well be present, but inferior Si sees the part as the whole. Inferior Si is also linked to feelings of nostalgia, overwhelmingly vivid internal imagery and a selective recall of facts and memories that are highly emotionally charged.

Basically, Si in an INFP is a distorted, emotional view of sensory information, which tends to cause them to resist adapting to it and/or to romanticize the past. IMO, in INPs in general, Si is at its most idiosyncratic (as Jung & Myers describe it as such; when combined with Je thinking, it then seems stable & predictable), as it's led along by Ji, not Je. An INFP in a Fi-Si loop is probably paranoid, melancholy, neurotic, a loner, filled with chaotic feelings, caught up in wallowing too much to form any routine, etc. They do not become grounded, routinized, pragmatic, etc. Those are the "higher levels" of Si, often due to the influence of Je.

Now consider traits of the Ne type, particularly ones which will show up in varying degrees in INFPs:

- Whereas the Se type is guided by material facts, the Ne type sees in the external world all manner of connections in an original and personal way
- [Ne] seeks possibilities & potential everywhere, and has a special flair for finding them
- [Ne] will often provide a solution in circumstances in which none of the other functions can find a way out
- Forever seeking new paths and new possibilities for the external life, with all current circumstances soon becoming a prison, an oppression - and they long for liberation
- A fact is only valued so long as it opens up new and more important prospects which can liberate the individual.
- In many respects, is the opposite of the Si type, who has a great passivity and a certain dependence on the environment; whereas the Ne type shows much spontaneous activity and independence, even to the point of rebelling against any obligation
- Novelty attracts them, both in people & things, which makes them extremely fickle
- Constantly reveal new facets of their nature, which seem to come to light spontaneously
- Their activity is often very great, but somewhat unpredictable.
- Like to see quick results, and if failing that, their attention is readily distracted by something else
- Show more impulsive energy than concentrated will-power.
- Stimulated by difficulties, for they are by nature combative
- They do not like to admit that they cannot do something
- They will discover fresh possibilities where others have failed
- Take pride in seeing the possibilities of accomplishing something which others regard as impossible
- Startlingly clever, giving an impression of making nothing of the difficulties others struggle with, & they can get away with anything
- As children their spontaneous activity, independence, & rebellion against obligations is evident at a very early age
- Always thinking out something fresh, and their imagination continually suggests fresh possibilities
- They like to impress others by startling remarks or behavior
- When they are at the top of their form, there is something radiant and inspiring about them.
- Many discoverers and inventors belong to this type, but ..... even artists, who manage to find new modes of expression
- May have great difficulty in managing themselves, owing to the constant invasion of fresh inspirations and impulses.
- Excessive spontaneity of their nature makes it extremely difficult for them to keep rules or appointments
- Frequently better at taking the initiative in starting something than at finishing it, leaving others to profit from their idea

Repeatedly do words like spontaneous, original, individual, rebelling, novelty, & liberate pop up in Ne descriptions. Again, this will apply in varying degrees to the INFP, whose focus on people is no more than the ISFP since both are Fi-dom, resulting in a type whose typical way of interacting with the world is very much in a spontaneous, original & individual manner.

If you (in general, not directed at anyone) type people according to definitions & descriptions of types, then you will not see INFPs as being more sensory or less individualistic. If not, then it's likely you are mistyping people because you're not accurately grasping how a type usually manifests.

 

[Randomnity]

Here, you see words/phrases like instinct, ordinary, practical, pleasures, realists, facts, not seeking change, accept things as they are, etc, being used to describe the Se type, and this will apply to ISFPs in varying degrees, & will be more apparent than the opposite function Ni. It gives the impression of someone who is independent & spontaneous in ways, sure, but also not seeking change for its own sake (which tends to be idealistic, not realistic) & focused on making everyday life pleasant & interesting for themselves & their family. The person seeks novel sensory experience, but not necessarily new ways of doing/thinking as the N type often seeks.
...
Repeatedly do words like spontaneous, original, individual, rebelling, novelty, & liberate pop up in Ne descriptions. Again, this will apply in varying degrees to the INFP, whose focus on people is no more than the ISFP since both are Fi-dom, resulting in a type whose typical way of interacting with the world is very much in a spontaneous, original & individual manner.

If you (in general, not directed at anyone) type people according to definitions & descriptions of types, then you will not see INFPs as being more sensory or less individualistic. If not, then it's likely you are mistyping people because you're not accurately grasping how a type usually manifests.

lol....this is exactly why so many ISxPs mistype as INxPs initially. Many descriptions imply we're doing pretty good if we can manage to keep breathing, let alone have any of them complex thought things going on, whereas the N gets to be "startlingly clever"!

 

[Hazashin]

[...]

Likewise, Si in the tertiary for the INFP is not a great influence on their personality. It's an inferior function that will pop up in very limited ways, ways which don't greatly influence their mindset nor behaviors. After all, Si is opposite to Ne, just as Ni is opposite to Se, and so one has to be repressed for the other to play a major roe.

This is inferior Si, but I don't doubt it's not that much different in the tertiary for the INFP (at least, this rings true for me):

"Where Si occupies the inferior position (as it does for those with dominant Ne), it is strongly tainted with unconscious contents. In these cases, Si may manifest as negative/malevolent images of eternal tendencies in people and situations that will not change. Such tendencies may well be present, but inferior Si sees the part as the whole. Inferior Si is also linked to feelings of nostalgia, overwhelmingly vivid internal imagery and a selective recall of facts and memories that are highly emotionally charged."

Basically, Si in an INFP is a distorted, emotional view of sensory information, which tends to cause them to resist adapting to it and/or to romanticize the past. IMO, in INPs in general, Si is at its most idiosyncratic (as Jung & Myers describe it as such; when combined with Je thinking, it then seems stable & predictable), as it's led along by Ji, not Je. An INFP in a Fi-Si loop is probably paranoid, melancholy, neurotic, a loner, filled with chaotic feelings, caught up in wallowing too much to form any routine, etc. They do not become grounded, routinized, pragmatic, etc. Those are the "higher levels" of Si, often due to the influence of Je.

[...]

Although I can't relate very well with Ne traits, I can very much so relate to the inferior Si description, especially this: "Inferior Si is also linked to feelings of nostalgia, overwhelmingly vivid internal imagery and a selective recall of facts and memories that are highly emotionally charged."

It still means I'm INFP, right?

 

[Elfboy]

Although I can't relate very well with Ne traits, I can very much so relate to the inferior Si description, especially this: "Inferior Si is also linked to feelings of nostalgia, overwhelmingly vivid internal imagery and a selective recall of facts and memories that are highly emotionally charged."

It still means I'm INFP, right?

you certainly don't seem ENFP

 

[OrangeAppled]

lol....this is exactly why so many ISxPs mistype as INxPs initially. Many descriptions imply we're doing pretty good if we can manage to keep breathing, let alone have any of them complex thought things going on, whereas the N gets to be "startlingly clever"!

That's your interpretation of it. The Se type is also described as making an art out of everyday living, finding fresh "facts", seeking novel experience, showing a high curiosity about objects, etc. I see the exact opposite of someone who is doing good if they manage to keep breathing, but instead someone who takes things as simple as breathing & makes them interesting, an experience in itself.

I think IxxPs mistype as Ns because Ji is somewhat misrepresented. ISFPs are first and foremost Fi types.

My point here is that ISFPs are not "more N" than INFPs because they have tertiary Ni and INFPs have tertiary Si. The traits of the aux function are far more defining.

 

[highlander]

My perception is that both INFPs and ISFPs are people who are sensitive, idealistic, and romantic. ISFPs are more connected to everyday reality whereas INFPs are more in their heads. Both seem to have this empathetic quality about them. ISFPs are more physical and do little spontaneous things to show that they care. INFPs seem to be more intellectual, deeper thinkers and more insightful. What strikes me about both is that while they are deeply emotional types, they are not always able to easily express what they are feeling. I think it can also be very hard to understand both of them at times. I guess ISFPs do seem more N'ish (NFish to be exact) than the other S types come to think of it. Maybe it has to do with the combination of Fi and Ni in their top 3 functions.

 

[KDude]

I'd think an "S" would have come to "peace" or at ease with the so called real world and all it's trappings more...which would in turn lead them to be more involved and/or helpful. While the INPs may quest for meaning or ideals on a different level.. sometimes at the detriment of their involvement.

Then again, I'm just projecting probably and making excuses for my lack of the above.

 

[dimane]

If you (in general, not directed at anyone) type people according to definitions & descriptions of types, then you will not see INFPs as being more sensory or less individualistic. If not, then it's likely you are mistyping people because you're not accurately grasping how a type usually manifests.[/QUOTE]

COOL BEANS

 

[CrystalViolet]

Dom Fi would be the dreamy factor don't ya'll think? We do manifest similar expressions of functions.

 

[lunalum]

That's your interpretation of it. The Se type is also described as making an art out of everyday living, finding fresh "facts", seeking novel experience, showing a high curiosity about objects, etc. I see the exact opposite of someone who is doing good if they manage to keep breathing, but instead someone who takes things as simple as breathing & makes them interesting, an experience in itself.

I think IxxPs mistype as Ns because Ji is somewhat misrepresented. ISFPs are first and foremost Fi types.

My point here is that ISFPs are not "more N" than INFPs because they have tertiary Ni and INFPs have tertiary Si. The traits of the aux function are far more defining.

Those descriptions seem to be describing ESxPs and ENxPs but some of these things will still show up in the differences between INFPs and ISFPs. There are cases though when then the tertiary will show up pretty strongly to the point of visibility and that could throw off people who don't know the difference between Ne/Si and Se/Ni.

Also, even with my bias goggles off, there's still a slightly more positive favor shown for the Ne description than for Se. The positive qualities for Se need to be more emphasized, like "Kick-butt at taking action at just the right moment to shape situations immediately, and takes in expereinces with richness unparalleled" and emphasize the drawback of Ne moving on to the next project and leaving the previous 25 million unfinished. They also exaggerate too much (though Se types might exaggerate in their own way as well....)

 

[Giggly]

My perception is that both INFPs and ISFPs are people who are sensitive, idealistic, and romantic. ISFPs are more connected to everyday reality whereas INFPs are more in their heads. Both seem to have this empathetic quality about them. ISFPs are more physical and do little spontaneous things to show that they care. INFPs seem to be more intellectual, deeper thinkers and more insightful. What strikes me about both is that while they are deeply emotional types, they are not always able to easily express what they are feeling. I think it can also be very hard to understand both of them at times. I guess ISFPs do seem more N'ish (NFish to be exact) than the other S types come to think of it. Maybe it has to do with the combination of Fi and Ni in their top 3 functions.

Yeah I agree with this.

And I love ISFPs!

 

[Matt_s]

Only my opinion of course and there's a whole spectrum within type..... but one thing I have noticed with INFP's I know irl is that they seem to be more particular, and prone to routine than ISFP's - i.e. liking to go and do the same things without tiring of it, and liking things done in certain ways, even if they don't verbalize that preference. It's like, you know that preference is there. So in that sense ISFP's I think come across more laid back and in some ways, more experimental/open/flexible to change in their lives.

I feel you've captured a big part of me in this post. I'm very go with the flow but there's always this internal resistance to new activities purely for novelty's sake. Even within repeated activities, I find a newness quite often. To a greater extent than most people I know, I find the routine as an opportunity to delve into an experience from different angles. I resisted this side of myself for most of my life and felt greatly conflicted for many years.

A big part of finding some personal satisfaction is crafting my own routine according to my own moral code, tastes, etc. In the military having a rigid routine imposed on me was a personal hell. Being on my own and shaping a life to my own preferences is a slice of heaven. I'm aware that I'm prone to ruts and find random sensor types to be very complementary, in limited doses. As I experience new and awesome things, there's always a piece of me trying to find the best bits to implement into a routine. I rarely lack for a feeling of newness in each day, which is a blessing and a curse.

 

[TenebrousReflection]

INFP's don't require changes in Physical environment so much, we are more inclined to philosophical change, the stimulus of New theories etc, or at least I am. INFP are more about independence of thought....ISFP's are about independence of expression and voice. It's much more tangible and obvious.

I think thats a very good description of the differences. When it comes to the physical world, I'll do a lot of initial experimentation to find what I like, but once I reach a result I'm happy with (or find a favorite food etc), I do tend to stick to it for quite a while. The one specific area where I'm extremely fixed in my ways is placement of furniture. If you want to irritate me, then moving furniture (even a couple inches off) will do it. If I happen to get a new piece of furniture (or replace an old one) however, then I can spend days re-arranging things and tweaking until I find a configuration thats "just right" for me and then I'll stick with that until I have a good reason to change it again. I'm usually open to trying new physical expereinces if someone else suggests it and I'll usually enjoy it, but I can go a long time without it too (the fact that I don't tend to activly seek out new physical expereinces on my own very often leads to an impression that I'm set in my ways, but they usually don't realize that its usually very easy to convince me to try new things). However, If I go too long without mental stimulation, thats when I get really bored and restless (fortunatly my hobbies do a good job of satisfying that need most of the time). Even if I'm not bored, I enjoy coming up with ideas and trying to get others to discuss them, I think thats the Ne equivalent to Se wanting to try new things.