[SP] SPs and Intelligence

[Seymour]

Yeah, Bamboo said that the Big Five "doesn't measure intelligence." It doesn't. It measures personality across five scales.

I agree with what Bamboo said, but that doesn't mean that there's no correlation between various intelligence measures and Big 5 or MBTI. If Big 5 and MBTI didn't correlate with anything, they wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

So, you can make statements "people with type X (or people with trait Y) tend to do better/worse on IQ (or other intelligence) tests" and have some empirical support. That doesn't say much of anything about any particular person of that type (or with that trait).

So I was just trying to point out that even though it's true MBTI and Big 5 don't measure intelligence, there are correlations with some intelligence measures. You can know those correlations exist but remain aware of how little they say about any particular individual (including yourself).

 

[Orangey]

I agree with what Bamboo said

Ah, okay.

but that doesn't mean that there's no correlation between various intelligence measures and Big 5 or MBTI.

That's true. Neither I nor (I think) Bamboo would disagree with this in principle. From what I have read, however, the only scale with any correlation to IQ is openness (which is relatively weak), and it has been argued that the personality test questions which cause this should not be included as measures of that scale. Moreover, the five factor model itself has been criticized as suffering from methodological, theoretical, and behavior-predictive deficiencies.

If Big 5 and MBTI didn't correlate with anything, they wouldn't be nearly as interesting.

Sure. But just because certain correlations would be interesting (should they exist) doesn't mean that they actually do exist, and we should be wary of accepting any data at face value (or over-interpreting data that is at best shaky.) The possibility remains that all of these personality measures, when sufficiently adjusted to take care serious methodological problems (if that ever happens), do not have any meaningful correlations with behaviors (e.g., job performance) or intelligence.

So, you can make statements "people with type X (or people with trait Y) tend to do better/worse on IQ (or other intelligence) tests" and have some empirical support. That doesn't say much of anything about any particular person of that type (or with that trait).

So I was just trying to point out that even though it's true MBTI and Big 5 don't measure intelligence, there are correlations with some intelligence measures. You can know those correlations exist but remain aware of how little they say about any particular individual (including yourself).

Sure. That's obvious.

 

[Bamboo]

Hmm, this got interesting.

But sure, I accept that there are correlations, but they seem pretty weak. Perhaps I was being overly declarative, but as far as most people are concerned (and I'm talking about the typical MBTI novice who might be under the impression that having the same type as Einstein makes them an Einstein), it's important to note there are some uses of MBTI that are more productive than others.

I'm cautioning against using MBTI beyond its capacities.

Complicating all of this is that the concept of "intelligence" is broadly defined, although there were a few references to different types of intelligence which can help clarify this.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

so what you're saying is that their intelligence is not discernable verbally so they can be perceived as stupid if it doesn't show itself in another way. that makes sense.

For the most part but it's all in perception.

You are ENFP. My best friend is an ENFP. I also have another good friend, ESTP. I hang out with both groups of friends yet never together. ENFP wanted to know why I wouldn't invite her along when I hung out with ESTP. I told her she wouldn't like it. She disagreed. So one day I did. Everyone got along fine. No problems but I could tell the ENFP was not enjoying herself.

She said the ESTP was "kind of stupid". Next time I hung out with ESTP he promptly asked what the problem was with my "stuck-up friend" lol...

Seems my friend and you had the same impression of Se. That's sort of interesting. Are you sure it's all SP's that you see this with or specifically certain types within the SP spectrum?

 

[Elfboy]

For the most part but it's all in perception.

You are ENFP. My best friend is an ENFP. I also have another good friend, ESTP. I hang out with both groups of friends yet never together. ENFP wanted to know why I wouldn't invite her along when I hung out with ESTP. I told her she wouldn't like it. She disagreed. So one day I did. Everyone got along fine. No problems but I could tell the ENFP was not enjoying herself.

She said the ESTP was "kind of stupid". Next time I hung out with ESTP he promptly asked what the problem was with my "stuck-up friend" lol...

Seems my friend and you had the same impression of Se. That's sort of interesting. Are you sure it's all SP's that you see this with or specifically certain types within the SP spectrum?

I can relate to this. most SJs and NFJs I've talked to think I'me stuck up. NTJs on the other hand love me I'm one of the only people that is confident and emotionally stable enough to have a good conversation with them. other ENFPs also seem to get along great with me and SPs usually either love me or want to kill me

 

[Orangey]

Seems my friend and you had the same impression of Se. That's sort of interesting. Are you sure it's all SP's that you see this with or specifically certain types within the SP spectrum?

I can relate to this. most SJs and NFJs I've talked to think I'me stuck up. NTJs on the other hand love me I'm one of the only people that is confident and emotionally stable enough to have a good conversation with them. other ENFPs also seem to get along great with me and SPs usually either love me or want to kill me

Ugh. Who cares?

 

[Elfboy]

Ugh. Who cares?

well, I do and I made the thread

 

[Orangey]

well, I do and I made the thread

That doesn't matter.

 

[Elfboy]

That doesn't matter.

i felt compelled to post, so I posted, it wasn't because anyone else would care. I know as an ENFP I'm happy to talk simply for it's own sake, but for a more precise, practical type like an ISTP, the feeling is probably not mutual.

 

[strychnine]

And yet, MDP2525 is an ISTP and asked you that question. I think it's a good one. I'm also interested to know how other types perceive Se. I for one am not good with words, so types that prefer verbal discussions/debates/sparring probably won't see that I'm not a moron . Yet if they see me in action perhaps they would think differently. I think that would definitely affect perception of Se. If you have more to say about how you see Se, that would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Orangey]

The ESTPs that I know are among the most verbally gifted of my acquaintance, and they lead with Se, so...

AND, to move away from anecdotes (especially ones that are irrelevant to the topic of discussion *ahem*), I don't see any theoretical reason why Se might make someone less inclined to show their intelligence verbally. That makes no sense.

 

[strychnine]

I don't see any theoretical reason why Se might make someone less inclined to show their intelligence verbally. That makes no sense.

Yes, it may not make sense. I just linked them up in myself (lack of verbal skills and Se). I realize that Se use may not cause my lack of verbal skills.

That said. Se is very action oriented. So I thought people who want to have drawn out verbal debates/discussions not geared towards action as an end, might see my lack of interest as stupidity. Also, a Je user would have a more structured way of speaking, even an introverted Je user (IxxJ). I thought this might make them seem "smarter" in verbal sparring.

Lastly, my posts are not irrelevant. SPs use Se and I'm talking about how other types' perceptions of Se affect their perceptions of SP intelligence (which is, shockingly, the thread title). And if you think that wasn't what I was talking about, that's certainly what MDP's question was about... so I'm guessing your beef is not that I'm off-topic, but that you don't actually care. Nice.

 

[Orangey]

Yes, it may not make sense. I just linked them up in myself (lack of verbal skills and Se). I realize that Se use may not cause my lack of verbal skills.

That said. Se is very action oriented. So I thought people who want to have drawn out verbal debates/discussions not geared towards action as an end, might see my lack of interest as stupidity.

Isn't debating itself an action?

Even Keirsey (that scum ) describes SPs as "users of tools" and includes "language" as one of these potential tools.

Also, a Je user would have a more structured way of speaking, even an introverted Je user (IxxJ). I thought this might make them seem "smarter" in verbal sparring.

Whichever trait is associated with composure (if any) would seem, I think, to have the greatest effect in this arena.

Lastly, my posts are not irrelevant. SPs use Se and I'm talking about how other types' perceptions of Se affect their perceptions of SP intelligence (which is, shockingly, the thread title). And if you think that wasn't what I was talking about, that's certainly what MDP's question was about... so I'm guessing your beef is not that I'm off-topic, but that you don't actually care. Nice.

I wasn't talking about you or anything you said. I was talking about Elfboy's perception of Se (as well as that crap about his own reception amongst his SJ and NJ peers) as being totally irrelevant to the topic of "SPs and intelligence." Which it is.

 

[sculpting]

My ex was a very intelligent ISTP. Extremely intelligent. Everything he did, he won. Most things tended to be more physical or artistic but for awhile he played chess, until he beat everyone he could gain access to, including a ton of NTs, then he stopped and found something e wasnt winning already.

He also scored the highest SAT scores out of his high school for the previous five years ( rural town of 30K). His mom had to bail him out of jail the morning of the test and he was still drunk when he took it.

He also tested at over 140 on various IQ tests. He was quite exceptionally at logic puzzles involving moving parts and pieces-like the interlocking rings and such.

His family does speak to IQ being inherited though, at least ancetdotally, as his dad was an INTJ in the Navy nuke program (very competitive), his maternal grandmom was a member of mensa ENFP, and his maternal grandad was an ISTP electrical engineer at NASA. His paternal grandad was an ISTP electrical engineer/navy seal who retired on a partially sunken boat with nine cats and sent us all crazy ass gifts out of catalogs every year.

With SPs in general I know a ton of ESTPs who complete biology/chemistry degrees but they are drawn into sales very quickly as they are not interested in the abstract lab work. One really cool ESTP I know has loads of Ni, and majored in philosophy in college. I also know an ISFP with an MS in Microbiology and several ESFP scientific sales reps as well.

So, I dunno, they guys have whatever form of IQ it takes to be very clever and very successful in life. They seem very happy.

 

[strychnine]

Isn't debating itself an action?

Even Keirsey (that scum ) describes SPs as "users of tools" and includes "language" as one of these potential tools.

Technically, yes. I just find it too idle.

Perhaps the use of language applies more to the extraverts.?

 

[Elfboy]

My ex was a very intelligent ISTP. Extremely intelligent. Everything he did, he won. Most things tended to be more physical or artistic but for awhile he played chess, until he beat everyone he could gain access to, including a ton of NTs, then he stopped and found something e wasnt winning already.

He also scored the highest SAT scores out of his high school for the previous five years ( rural town of 30K). His mom had to bail him out of jail the morning of the test and he was still drunk when he took it.

He also tested at over 140 on various IQ tests. He was quite exceptionally at logic puzzles involving moving parts and pieces-like the interlocking rings and such.

His family does speak to IQ being inherited though, at least ancetdotally, as his dad was an INTJ in the Navy nuke program (very competitive), his maternal grandmom was a member of mensa ENFP, and his maternal grandad was an ISTP electrical engineer at NASA. His paternal grandad was an ISTP electrical engineer/navy seal who retired on a partially sunken boat with nine cats and sent us all crazy ass gifts out of catalogs every year.

With SPs in general I know a ton of ESTPs who complete biology/chemistry degrees but they are drawn into sales very quickly as they are not interested in the abstract lab work. One really cool ESTP I know has loads of Ni, and majored in philosophy in college. I also know an ISFP with an MS in Microbiology and several ESFP scientific sales reps as well.

So, I dunno, they guys have whatever form of IQ it takes to be very clever and very successful in life. They seem very happy.

an ESTP who majored in philosophy? damn, philosophy is too N even for me and it's my first function

 

[King sns]

I can relate to this. most SJs and NFJs I've talked to think I'me stuck up. NTJs on the other hand love me I'm one of the only people that is confident and emotionally stable enough to have a good conversation with them. other ENFPs also seem to get along great with me and SPs usually either love me or want to kill me

So is this the difference between "brilliant" and "stupid" to you?....
(Decided to start using smilies appropriately to avoid misinterpretations.... Though, let it be known that I don't really like a lot of smilies.)

and the "few in the middle" must have no opinion of you...

I'm still waiting on a definition of intelligence, otherwise.. it's too much of a guessing game...

I agree with Penny as well,- some SP's don't see discussion and debating as real action/ having a point. ... That may be confused as stupidity for some.

 

[King sns]

an ESTP who majored in philosophy? damn, philosophy is too N even for me and it's my first function

What does "too N?" mean?

I always found philosophy to be an easy A.. But yet completely pointless.

 

[Elfboy]

So is this the difference between "brilliant" and "stupid" to you?....
(Decided to start using smilies appropriately to avoid misinterpretations.... Though, let it be known that I don't really like a lot of smilies.)

and the "few in the middle" must have no opinion of you...

I'm still waiting on a definition of intelligence, otherwise.. it's too much of a guessing game...

I agree with Penny as well,- some SP's don't see discussion and debating as real action/ having a point. ... That may be confused as stupidity for some.

no, this is a seperate point.

 

[Elfboy]

Yes, it may not make sense. I just linked them up in myself (lack of verbal skills and Se). I realize that Se use may not cause my lack of verbal skills.

That said. Se is very action oriented. So I thought people who want to have drawn out verbal debates/discussions not geared towards action as an end, might see my lack of interest as stupidity. Also, a Je user would have a more structured way of speaking, even an introverted Je user (IxxJ). I thought this might make them seem "smarter" in verbal sparring.

Lastly, my posts are not irrelevant. SPs use Se and I'm talking about how other types' perceptions of Se affect their perceptions of SP intelligence (which is, shockingly, the thread title). And if you think that wasn't what I was talking about, that's certainly what MDP's question was about... so I'm guessing your beef is not that I'm off-topic, but that you don't actually care. Nice.

ah, so you're saying that an NP might consider an SP to be stupid because they don't as often enjoy the kind of verbal sparring and intellectual bounciness that we do. conversely, SPs might consider NPs wimpy because they don't partake in the kinds of physical competitions that SPs seem to be found of.