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[MBTI General] ISPs: Do you identify with this statement? (tertiary Ni)

rhinosaur

Just a statistic
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From The Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki

As a Tertiary Function, Ni typically leads ISPs to suspect others of hypocrisy and cheating and putting on appearances aimed at exploiting people's credulity--especially hypocrisy inherent in social institutions. Sometimes ISPs draw upon Ni to find ways to throw a monkey wrench into social systems that call them into some kind of obligation: to respond in ways that don't make sense within the system's explicitly stated ways of interpreting behavior as cooperative or hostile (but are indeed hostile).

Do you think she is just pinning these ideas to tertiary Ni without any justification, or are her ideas about the role of Ni justified?
 

Randomnity

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I don't know...I recognize myself using Ni fairly often but not really in that way. I tend to go the other way and infer good intentions when they aren't necessarily there.

I also don't do whatever the other thing means (become a rebel without a cause? something like that?)
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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Me clearly not an ISP... but if I replace Ni with Ti for INFJ... and make a similar statement. I have to disagree with it.
 

Wandering

Highly Hollow
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If I remember well, in Lenore Thomson's view, the Tertiary function is little more than a badly behaved rotten little kid shouting insults and insanities and trying to veer the ship off course. I personally totally disagree with that view.
 

"?"

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That is not her work, but someone who has created the site to discuss her work. Lenore Thomson gives very little information on how the teritiary works, as does most MBTI enthusiasts.

Oddly enough this description may fit me better, “Ni typically leads to either self-doubt or to a claim of mystic vision--to see themselves as an oracle of transcendent truth, bypassing the need for finding things out through observation, reasoning, and putting ideas to a test.”
 

anotherthink

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Hmm. I think I've noticed (what I've interpreted to be) tertiary Ni in both the "mystic vision" sense and the paranoid sense ("everything is connected, but maybe in a creepy way!"). The second sentence is interesting, though I'm not sure whether I agree... this is a pretty interesting topic in general, I think.
 

mcmartinez84

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Yes and no. Most of the time I assume people are as honest and frank as I am until proven otherwise. However, I usually think people are selfish and that I'm one of their tools to get to the next step of their plan.

"suspect others of hypocrisy and cheating and putting on appearances aimed at exploiting people's credulity--especially hypocrisy inherent in social institutions."

If it someone I don't know well, none of those qualities come as a surprise. :-/
 

"?"

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Yes and no. Most of the time I assume people are as honest and frank as I am until proven otherwise. However, I usually think people are selfish and that I'm one of their tools to get to the next step of their plan.

"suspect others of hypocrisy and cheating and putting on appearances aimed at exploiting people's credulity--especially hypocrisy inherent in social institutions."

If it someone I don't know well, none of those qualities come as a surprise. :-/
Upon reading your response, I had to review the original description again and quite agree with it from my past experiences, even the statement, “Sometimes ISPs draw upon Ni to find ways to throw a monkey wrench into social systems that call them into some kind of obligation to respond in ways that don't make sense within the system's explicitly stated ways of interpreting behavior as cooperative or hostile (but are indeed hostile).”

I do this on an unconscious level, resulting in some form of unwanted and unsolicited obligation being thrown upon me. Wow, I will have to process this last part, which may be a constant unhealthy cycle for me. Nevertheless, McMartinez makes good points that tie into the description that I posted here on the Artisan/Improviser temperament in general:
In the Artisan temperament pattern, attention is paid first to what an individual “gets” out of a situation. Motives are the reasons people do things. They must be paid attention to in order to get the desired results. Knowing a person’s motives provides people expressing Artisan cues to freely respond as the other person pursues his or her wants or needs.

People expressing Artisan can be cynical about human motives… they harbor no illusions about people being noble or saintly – “come off it”, says the archetypal Artisan, no matter how virtuous we think ourselves, we all have feet of clay, we are all ultimately corruptible and self-serving. (When the Artisan and Rational patterns are expressed together, the result can be especially sardonic, as the cynicism associated with the Artisan pattern and the skepticism associated with the Rational pattern can feed upon one another).

Although this focus on Motives is shared with the Idealist pattern, the interpretation of motivations by someone expressing Artisan is more down-to-earth than by someone expressing Idealist. Viewed through the Artisan pattern, people’s motives might be a source of suspicion, but viewed through the Idealist pattern, motives express the unique identities of individuals.
As an ISTP, the Ni-Fe is my poor mirroring to INFJ and most likely ESTP (Fe-Ni) to ENFJ.
 

istpunk

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Yep, I do this. I actually get off on this especially Judgers. It's like all of a sudden, that little street cat becomes a gigantic sabertooth tiger shadowing 100 feet tall over that little ENTJ or ISTJ.
 

rhinosaur

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Do you think this behavior is being arbitrarily pinned to "Ni" without justification?

Can the root of this behavior really be pinned to anything? Or is it more of a combination, an anomaly, that can't be analyzed with personality theories?

I think it might have something to do with the combination of Ni + Fe. If this is true, INJs wouldn't display this behavior, because they don't have the Fe. I can think of one instance where there might be an exception to this. INFJs can get pretty judgmental at times (no offense, Nightning), and are known for their propensity for stirring shit up if they believe in the cause. The difference lies in their motivations. Whereas INFJs would only start a fight if they believe in the cause, ISPs would start a fight just to start a fight.

I, for one, do identify with the statement, and will occasionally make an effort to point out people's hypocrisy. Sometimes I can also be pretty confrontational, and I absolutely hate people who infringe on my personal liberty without a justification. If I were to join the military, I'm pretty sure I would either get kicked out or go AWOL.

I've seen my sister display this behavior, too, which helps solidify my opinion that she is ISFP.
 

alicia91

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Yep, I relate to it quite strongly. While I tend to be optimistic and trust people until proven otherwise, I still will analyze other's motives, especially if the person's actions strike me as odd or out of the ordinary. I'm usually dead on when it comes to figuring them out and consider this ability to be a good thing. So, I'd describe myself as quietly cynical and fairly sceptical, and not at all gullible.

This trait has also gotten much stronger with age which is of course true with the teriariy functions.
 

proteanmix

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Posts where INFJs (not ISPs) ramble about their tertiary function moved here.
 

riel

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As a Tertiary Function, Ni typically leads ISPs to suspect others of hypocrisy and cheating and putting on appearances aimed at exploiting people's credulity--especially hypocrisy inherent in social institutions.

I tackled with this once. That was the time when my Sensing side is at its strongest(I'm still 18 btw and I've read once that my 3rd function would kick at around 25 above but it varies from person to person), but my tertiary Ni was already manifesting itself I think in an unhealthy way because I was always suspecting others of pretending whenever they're around me.

So I believe that this kind of Ni manifestation is an unhealthy manifestation. But I'm not sure...suggestions/comments are welcome.
 

nightning

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So I believe that this kind of Ni manifestation is an unhealthy manifestation. But I'm not sure...suggestions/comments are welcome.

Lenore Thomson agrees with you (re: Tertiary temptation).

I personally don't think tertiary usage is always unhealthy. I guess before you get a good grasp of what it is, there'll be the tendency of unconscious flare ups. But for the most part I've only heard good things people have to say about the use of their tertiary functions here on the forum.
 

Totenkindly

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Lenore Thomson agrees with you (re: Tertiary temptation). I personally don't think tertiary usage is always unhealthy. I guess before you get a good grasp of what it is, there'll be the tendency of unconscious flare ups. But for the most part I've only heard good things people have to say about the use of their tertiary functions here on the forum.

I don't know if particular behaviors can be conclusively tied to a tertiary, this is where theory definitely starts to seem more theoretical than normal, if you get my drift. We're probably plugging a lot into the theory (backwards engineering) than letting theory be driven by pure data.

But I can see a lot of stuff in me that could be a childlike Si (and I was raised by a strong Si and had others in my family). For being so intellectually complex, I have this naive sweet sense of nostalgia and find it easy to retreat into a pocket world built on memories of less complicated times, I can be very nostalgic when given the chance and sometimes have a temptation to just set everything else aside and accept this simply view of the world from when I was young, and get caught up on revisiting and reexperiencing those old memories in the present... whereas there's nothing essentially good about them except that they were part of my particular past.

meanwhile I've seen ISTPs have the kneejerk reactions mentioned in the OP, and sometimes ISFPs (but more the ISTPs). ISTPs tend to do it when they think the demand is stupid, ISFPs seem to respond more if they think the demand is unfair to people.
 

BlackCat

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I personally thought Lenore Thomson's views on the tertiary functions weren't that great, or at least they were incomplete. Ni manifests itself in many, many other ways in the ISPs, not just with those few sentences she wrote.
 

Grayscale

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i am aware of it ("Ni", I will call it probable outcomes) and usually, it is not wrong or far off, but when other people are involved i try to ignore it in leu of the concrete facts because, like all educated guessing, it is too prone to projection and that isn't fair to others. by myself, i will use it heavily because there is little or no collateral damage to others when im wrong and it's more efficient, really depends on how vital the situation is, risk/reward of time saved, etc.
 

King sns

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I know one ISFP that exactly matches this description of having tertiary Ni. Also know an ISTP that does, too. The making assumptions about things based on little information. (They do this all the time! To everyone!) Not just once in a while.

I love them both dearly, but at times have questioned their intelligence level. They don't strike me as stupid, but just aren't quite up there with the smartest of the smartest.

I think that this kind of use of tertiary function may be due to lack of intelligence and maybe just possible unhealthy tertiary development. (Which I guess could lead to a seeming lack of intelligence as well. Maybe? I'm just talking to myself, now.)

(I would say age too but the ISFP is 44.. He should have that third function developed by now!!)
 
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