[ISTP] How do I motivate my ISTP son?

[sinnamon]

I asked him what he thought would work and he shrugged.

Heheh. Isn't that the standard ISTP son response?

I'll check out that book. It's a parenting book based on personality type?

 

[INTJMom]

...It's a parenting book based on personality type?

Yes. It's written by Barron and Tieger, the same people who wrote Do What You Are.

They have suggestions for dealing with your child at several different age levels, and an overall approach to take when dealing with them.

 

[6sticks]

We have grounded him, taken away the computer, the TV, every damn thing he cares about & that he obssesses over to the point that he doesn't do his work.

That's the worst thing you could have done. Why should he do you the favor of getting good grades if you're punishing him? If he has any spirit in him he'll do worse until you give in.

I know this because I was in this situation. You can't make an ISTP do anything.

 

[millerm277]

Like your son, mine is bright, but they just hate applying themselves to school work. My son is foremostly a "hands-on" learner so sitting and listening to lectures can be absolute torture for him.

Yup. Being forced to learn things you will never use is even more torture.

I'm a little confused because I thought taking away privileges works. I just consulted with my son and he says that if I took away his privileges because of bad grades, he would "just get madder and do worse". I asked him what he thought would work and he shrugged.

From my point of view, I know what I want to do and don't want to do. Someone else telling me/trying to force me to do it, doesn't make me want to do it, it just makes me annoyed.

This wouldn't be easy to do, but if you can show him how getting good grades will help him reach his goals, or have a practical application in his life, it will probably help. My son often makes comments about learning "stupid" things that he can't use in real life.

That would work, but is very hard to do, especially with subjects that obviously have no use.


As a note: Punishments will have an opposite reaction of what you intend, rewards will rarely work. The only way things are likely to change is to find a way to convince him of it's use. If there isn't a use...you're probably out of luck.

 

[6sticks]

His father & I can't afford to send him to some out-of-state ivy league college, but he could easily go if he gets his shit together.

What makes you think he wants to go to one?

 

[INTJMom]

My parents tried the whole punishment thing with me....totally useless. I didn't like being forced into things so I just took the punishment. They did manage to force me to get a job in grade 12 though by saying that if I didn't, they'd kick me out (and I believed them). Ultimately I appreciated it, but I definitely resented that for a while. They didn't try rewards but I don't think that would have worked either. Hmm...what did work?

-my parents told me from a young age that they couldn't afford to send me to school and I'd need good enough grades for scholarships if I wanted to go
-I wanted to be a vet for a while and I knew I needed good grades for that
-more than anything it was just that I felt bad when I got a bad mark so I put in enough effort to not do badly but not a bit more than the minimum needed....

I guess I can't say much other than in my experience ISTPs are hard to motivate externally, they have to want to do it first....so if there is no internal motivation, I'm not really sure what you can do. Just make sure he's aware of what, realistically, he needs to do in order to get where he wants to in life....but really, at 12, that's still a long way off from mattering. It's only in the last few years of high school that it'll matter, and then only marginally.

This post just reminded me of Cynthia Tobias.
I laughed my head off the first time I heard her on the radio.
Talk about strong-willed!!
Here's her site.
Can't Make Me - For parents of the strong willed child.

One of her books is called:
You Can't Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded):
Strategies for Bringing Out the Best in your Strong-Willed Child

She was/is a school teacher, too.

 

[Jae Rae]

This post just reminded me of Cynthia Tobias.
I laughed my head off the first time I heard her on the radio.
Talk about strong-willed!!
Here's her site.
Can't Make Me - For parents of the strong willed child.

One of her books is called:
You Can't Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded):
Strategies for Bringing Out the Best in your Strong-Willed Child

She was/is a school teacher, too.

Thanks INTJMom for the recommendation. I've requested it from the library for my strong-willed child.

Another book suggestion is here:

Amazon.com: Uncommon Sense for Parents With Teenagers: Michael Riera: Books

I've heard Michael Riera speak and he's amazingly insightful and funny. He's written a number of parenting books.

Jae Rae

 

[INTJMom]

You need a better reward I think... ...

I know that ISTPs need the reward to be immediate, instead of too far down the road. The more immediate, the better.

That's the worst thing you could have done. Why should he do you the favor of getting good grades if you're punishing him? If he has any spirit in him he'll do worse until you give in.

I know this because I was in this situation. You can't make an ISTP do anything.

I have just learned something in the past couple of weeks about my son (and my ISTP) husband. They are very relationship oriented. I have noticed in the past that my son will do something for me when he wants something. Not in a manipulative way. It's more like, "I understand that this is the way it works. If I want you to do something for me, I have to do something for you."

Or if I took him to the store to get him some clothes he needed - I "did him a favor" - when we got home, he would open my car door for me. This was my reciprocated reward for doing him the favor. What I'm attempting to say, in my very typically poor INTJ way, is that they are very "favor" oriented in their thinking - at least mine are.

You might be able to work this around in your favor - no pun intended.

 

[rhinosaur]

I have noticed in the past that my son will do something for me when he wants something. Not in a manipulative way. It's more like, "I understand that this is the way it works. If I want you to do something for me, I have to do something for you."

This resonates with me. I also get frustrated when people do things for me (ie gifts), and they don't ask for anything in return, or I don't know what they want in return. I'm also not a fan of doing favors out of pure kindness -- I usually want something in return.

I've only recently noticed this pattern of my behavior. In the past it's been so automatic that I do it without thought. It's like "eye for an eye" has been programmed into my subconscious.

I do see how cold it is, though, and how badly some people dislike this kind of behavior. It's hard to stop.

 

[Valiant]

My few cents on this matter is that you shouldn't punish him. Restore status to normal, show him the bad side of town etc. But for the LOVE of GOD, don't take away his stuff. That will only make him hate your guts, and thus not respect or listen to a word that comes out of your mouth.

I used to be the same, but somewhere along the way I picked up the pace again and started doing well. But that mostly came from my own gathered information that i'd be poor and unhappy later on if I didn't do something about the status quo.

Anyway. Give him back his stuff, and then try reason with him. Sit down and take a long talk with him about it, like two grown-ups, not grown-up to kid.
I am not sure about ISTPs, but as an ESTP I've always, no matter how young I was, been very irritated with people who treated me as a minor. And now I can really say that I wasn't wrong with thinking so. Some kids aren't that stupid or irrational, really. Try the talk thing...

"I do this because I love you and want you to have a good future. Some day we will not be there for you and then I want you to be able to stand on your own legs and not have to depend upon me/us... etc"

Being independent is really important for thinking kids. My father used to do that tactic with me and it got me to listen.
And to let him know that you get proud if he gets a B or above, and to let him know that you get sad when he gets bad grades etc. Eventually I think things will turn out OK. Just don't do the punishing part.

Who knows what this bad grade thing comes from? Maybe he doesn't like his class or something. I know my class wasn't good for me when I was 12 to 15, and that highly affected my grades. But then it picked up when I didn't see them anymore from age 16 to 19.

There are probably many factors in this and I bet you don't know half of it.

 

[millerm277]

Being independent is really important for thinking kids. My father used to do that tactic with me and it got me to listen.
And to let him know that you get proud if he gets a B or above, and to let him know that you get sad when he gets bad grades etc. Eventually I think things will turn out OK. Just don't do the punishing part.

And, just as a warning for you, that may take a while. My grades were terrible from 7th-9th grades. The reason I wound up deciding to do better was that I scored a 2100/2400 on my PSAT (and something like 9x percentile) and as a result, got a ridiculous amount of mail from colleges. In looking through some of it, I realized I might want to go to some of those places, and in order to do so, I needed to bring my grades up a bit. (They're now A's and B's).

 

[sinnamon]

I'm noting all of the responses, especially from the ISTPs. I appreciate the younger ISTPs' point-of-views; they help me peak inside that teen brain for bits I may have forgotten (turns out I haven't forgotten much). But some of these points are a little unrealistic. For instance, if there is bad behavior, there are consequences. I don't get irrate or anything; it's just business. Also, he is 12 & has impulse control issues (like all 12 year olds). If you can't police your computer time, I will do that for you.

I have tried to talk to him. I've always talked to my children as if they were intelligent human beings, even when they were toddlers (yeah I "goo goo'd" at them too, for all of you about to make fun of the vulcan INTP mom). I can't get a real response from him ever, but that won't keep me from trying some more.

No, he may not want to go to an Ivy League college, but he does know he wants to be an engineer of some kind. Actually, he has said he wants to go to MIT.

I like the comments about being independent. I am going to work a bit on the idea of how to make him involved in his own decisions with regard to doing his school work and keeping his grades up. I already asked him to choose 3 classes to commit to making A's & the rest could be B's. He seemed to appreciate that, but of course he loses focus before the end of the road. I think I may ask him what he thinks is fair as far as play versus school work. I may ask him to be involved in his own consequences and rewards. How much work do you think you should do every night? How much computer time do you think is fair? What do you think is a fair reward for good grades? What do you think is a fair consequence for a bad grade? etc.

 

[millerm277]

But some of these points are a little unrealistic. For instance, if there is bad behavior, there are consequences. I don't get irrate or anything; it's just business.

I don't disagree with you, but the reaction we typically have to those consequences is the reverse of what you intend.

Also, he is 12 & has impulse control issues (like all 12 year olds). If you can't police your computer time, I will do that for you.

Not that he should spend all day on the computer, but don't draw a correleation between that and his grades. When I really was uninterested in school, it didn't matter what I was actually doing, it just mattered that it wasn't schoolwork. Taking away the computer, or something like that, I would expect will just mean he will go spend his time doing something else other than schoolwork.

 

[6sticks]

But some of these points are a little unrealistic. For instance, if there is bad behavior, there are consequences. I don't get irrate or anything; it's just business.

That will likely be the same reaction he has. He'll understand there will be a consequence and simply accept it. I think this will end up as just two people acting out their prescribed roles with nothing changing.

I really don't see the logic behind accepting that punishment won't work but doing it anyway.

 

[Mort Belfry]

I wouldn't worry about it, all gifted children drift into mediocrity after a while.

 

[cafe]

Does it work to have him do his schoolwork, eat dinner, and then pretty much let him have free time until he needs to get ready for bed? Usually if I tell my guys no computer until after homework is done and there isn't an unreasonable amount of homework, they try to get the work done so they can play. If there is a lot of homework, does it work to break it into smaller segments and offer some breaks and rewards like 30 minutes of free time, etc?

I was always horrible about doing homework. Part of it was laziness and lack of motivation, part of it was being overwhelmed and not having anyone to help keep me on track.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

The ISTP is led by Introverted Thinking which is a form of Introverted Judgment. This means that his decision making must derive from within. In order to be motivated, he must discover reasons on his own endeavor deem his task important. It is not relevant whether or not he will be rewarded or punished for doing so, whether or not others will be pleased, etc. As those factors are external to his inner mindset in relation to the task. He must find the task in itself worthwhile, until he does, at best he will drag his feet at it. If you say that he will be punished for not performing, he will make some effort to perform as he obviously does not want to be punished, but he will not have the motivation to carry through as the task in itself leaves him uninspired.

External exhortations are anathema to Introverted Judgment. The more you force him to go by an external standard the more resistance you will get. This isnt necessarily because he sees something wrong with the particular stipulation, but because he sees something wrong with the very idea of being externally, as opposed to internally guided. He will pull inwards just so he can have an opportunity to make his own decisions. Even if it is obvious that the external decision is very fitting. Unless the decision came from within, to the ISTP, it is simply useless. It is highly likely that when you stop fussing over him spending hours on the computer and the TV, he will invest much less time in those activities.


Do not try to force your views and values onto him. If your ISTP son is to deem his schoolwork important, he must arrive at such conclusion only on his own thinking. The best you can do is simply offer ideas for him to analyze. Inform, but do not direct. Any attempt to inculcate or force your will upon him will necessarily be met with recalcitrance for the aforementioned reasons.

I'd say let him be for now, ease off the pressure. There you will at least stand some kind of a chance of him finding the motivation to carry on with his work. Intervene only if he puts himself by way of grave danger. It is paramount that he be granted as much autonomy as possible. ITPs would much rather have life teach them as opposed to be spoon fed, he will thank you for this when he grows older.

 

[Randomnity]

I know that ISTPs need the reward to be immediate, instead of too far down the road. The more immediate, the better.

I have just learned something in the past couple of weeks about my son (and my ISTP) husband. They are very relationship oriented. I have noticed in the past that my son will do something for me when he wants something. Not in a manipulative way. It's more like, "I understand that this is the way it works. If I want you to do something for me, I have to do something for you."

Or if I took him to the store to get him some clothes he needed - I "did him a favor" - when we got home, he would open my car door for me. This was my reciprocated reward for doing him the favor. What I'm attempting to say, in my very typically poor INTJ way, is that they are very "favor" oriented in their thinking - at least mine are.

You might be able to work this around in your favor - no pun intended.

That's an interesting point that I'd never actually realized before, but it's very true for me. Maybe not in terms of favours necessarily, but the relationship thing...if I like you or I'm just pleased with you at the moment, I'll be nice to you because I want things to be equal between us. Good eye.

Maybe that applies to all types, though.

 

[INTJMom]

That's an interesting point that I'd never actually realized before, but it's very true for me. Maybe not in terms of favours necessarily, but the relationship thing...if I like you or I'm just pleased with you at the moment, I'll be nice to you because I want things to be equal between us. Good eye.

Maybe that applies to all types, though.

Perhaps, a little. I noticed it because it's something I don't do and don't care about.

My husband got involved in a business and was forever (read ad nauseum) telling me about how great the association with the other people was. I'm thinking, "Okay already, so what?"

Then the other day, I asked my son - the skateboarding ISTP - if he had any desire to snowboard. He said, "No. I don't like the people." I'm thinking, "Don't like the people?! So what?! Who needs people anyway? Are you going to let other people's involvement dictate your life to you?" and on down the train tracks that went.

It was putting those two things together, that gave rise to my theory. As I have been checking into it further, it turns out that there's a lot more to it than I at first suspected.

When you consider that the SP is the "Influencing" type, it would only make sense that they also are affected by influence.

 

[mcmartinez84]

I think this is the right way to go. You have to guide him to *want* to do his work. Negative punishment doesn't work too well on ISTPs -- we resent it and push back even harder.

Negative punishment never worked. I hated school. I hated homework. Always. In college I realized that I had to do it to get anywhere with some classes. Taking things away from me just made me hate homework even more.

I don't disagree with you, but the reaction we typically have to those consequences is the reverse of what you intend.

Not that he should spend all day on the computer, but don't draw a correleation between that and his grades. When I really was uninterested in school, it didn't matter what I was actually doing, it just mattered that it wasn't schoolwork. Taking away the computer, or something like that, I would expect will just mean he will go spend his time doing something else other than schoolwork.

It didn't matter if something was taken away... I still hated the school work and I still did as well or as poorly as I would have with the privileges. Just gotta convince me somehow that I *need* to do the stuff or that it'll be good for me in some fundamental way.

We're difficult to get through to D: