[ISTP] How do I motivate my ISTP son?

[sinnamon]

Tonight I called my son into the kitchen while I was fixing dinner & talked to him about the current state of affairs. I told him that I know he felt that at times things were inequitable with regard to his school vs. play. I also wanted him to know there were a few things that have historically been true -- if I gave him computer time he didn't do his homework, if I told him to do his hw first, he rushed through & went to play his games. I also told him that I understood he wants independence & that I want that for him as well. So I asked him to propose what he felt like was a fair arrangement.

He said that he should have to stay of the pc until I get home (about 30 minutes after he does) & that he should have to do his homework first, let me look at it, & then have pc or TV time for the rest of the evening (except for his chores). I asked what should happen if he started rushing through his work & getting bad grades, & he responded that then he should lose computer priviledges for a week.

I said done.

I also told him I didn't like being the grade Nazi & that I didn't want to have to get on line every day & check up on him & his grades. He said he likes checking them every day himself. I said deal.

He's also much happier with school right now because he started Tech Ed, & the teacher hands them an assignment sheet & they go work on it however & at whatever pace they want.

 

[cdal233]

Hey I was totally serious with my first response, I'll elaborate on the motivations a bit further. It's a hidden flaw in the system that my brother (ISTP, one year younger) and I exploited as much as possible.

It does all depend on the high school, but in ours, the honors classes were a lot easier to get good grades. I'll explain... Once in the honors programs, you need a 'C' two semesters in a row to get kicked out, and the teachers generally give most of the students get A's and B's in the honors classes (so they don't get kicked out). So they get 5.0's and 4.0's, while only a small percentage of the 'normal' kids get 4.0's. Thus most of them have considerably higher GPA's than is really representative of their effort. It's the 'no child left behind' reality of the way the world works... the kids with everything get more and the kids with nothing get less.

Nobody really thinks to change this obvious flaw... they think they are just rewarding the kids who are already pre-chosen to have more potential.

I realized this as a freshman in high school, so I convinced my brother to get into the honors classes for the easier road. If you enter high school in the group that has everything, theres a good chance you'll end with a better representation than your actual ability.

On top of that, the majority of colleges weight your high school GPA by the grade, not the +'s and -'s when considering admission. So a B- in a honors class is worth the same as an A+ in a normal class. Getting a B- in a honors class is usually 'below average' for that honors class. Undergraduate admissions work by a set algorithm, that's there only to exploit.

Treating the ridiculous high school curriculum as a system to beat really worked well for us. We treated it as strictly a game to put ourselves in the most ideal situation where a good result would most likely happen... instead of looking at it by the perceived difficulty most people look at it by. 'Honors' and 'AP' mean nothing... and once you realize that, you're set.

We hated the school curriculum, the only thing it's good for is getting into college. There you can start to put in real effort to go all out academically.

Unleashing this reality was a good motivator for my ISTP brother. It seems less like work if you're exploiting the system

 

[FDG]

He's 12. You don't motivate a 12 years old, for christ's sake. At least until he's 18, let him do what he wants.

You're worried about a bright kid who's not trying hard, but many kids, especially boys, don't get the point of school or college until much later than their parents would like

Of course, because there isn't any.

 

[rhinosaur]

Of course, because there isn't any.

Biggest load of crock I've heard all day. On average, people who stay in school get better jobs with higher pay. You get an education, and you get a piece of paper that's pretty valuable if you want a good job.

And although I'm not a parent, I imagine that letting a twelve year old do anything they want is not conducive to being able to control them when they're eighteen.

 

[mcmartinez84]

Biggest load of crock I've heard all day. On average, people who stay in school get better jobs with higher pay. You get an education, and you get a piece of paper that's pretty valuable if you want a good job.

And although I'm not a parent, I imagine that letting a twelve year old do anything they want is not conducive to being able to control them when they're eighteen.

Really, the paper matters, but who gives a crap where you went to school and what your GPA was? I've got a nice job and had other offers and no one cared about the school I went to or what my GPA was upon graduating. The same applies for my sister; she's not working in her field of study at all and she makes 6 figures a year. I'm not working in my field of study either.

I'm not saying that there should be zero disciplining or that education is a complete waste... It's not, but it's often very much overrated. The only thing that matters in the end is the piece of paper. Even without it, you can get the same job, just not at the same age. I've got coworkers who barely graduated from high school and they have the exact same position I have... They also have about 10-15 years on me.

If you want the job by a certain age, go to school and do homework. If you just want to get by, fuck school, but keep in mind that just getting by sucks major balls and you have very little freedom because of financial restrictions.
That last bit is the reason I stuck it all out. The piece of papers lets you do less for more money in many jobs....

 

[FDG]

Biggest load of crock I've heard all day. On average, people who stay in school get better jobs with higher pay. You get an education, and you get a piece of paper that's pretty valuable if you want a good job.

And although I'm not a parent, I imagine that letting a twelve year old do anything they want is not conducive to being able to control them when they're eighteen.

Hey, calm down...I didn't say that there isn't a point in education, ever. I only said that there isn't a point in homework during the early teens, and even less to already think about Ivy League schools.

I know perfectly well the statistics about the income differential between graduated and nongraduates. Hell, I've written my undergrad thesis on the matter.

 

[rhinosaur]

Hey, calm down...I didn't say that there isn't a point in education, ever. I only said that there isn't a point in homework during the early teens, and even less to already think about Ivy League schools.

I know perfectly well the statistics about the income differential between graduated and nongraduates. Hell, I've written my undergrad thesis on the matter.

I misunderstood you, then.

And on second thought I can see the benefit of letting the kid follow his own interests to get a feel for what he likes and doesn't like, rather than blindly doing the assigned work without question.

 

[sinnamon]

Hey I was totally serious with my first response, I'll elaborate on the motivations a bit further. It's a hidden flaw in the system that my brother (ISTP, one year younger) and I exploited as much as possible.

Well, the difference is that I actually work in the school where he'll be going next year, & I can tell you that what you describe is not the case in that school. We do get students in AP classes that don't do their work, & we do fail them or give them whatever grade they earn, & they do get kicked out of the program. I'm sure there are teachers that take the easy way out, but they are the exception, rather than the rule.

As to getting off his back about school & reigning in the discipline -- I have chilled out on my expectations. I wish he were self-motivated to achieve, but he's not, & super high achievement can only be motivated intrinsically not extrinsically. That said, I don't think that allowing my son to bring home D's simply because he won't do his homework is acceptable.

Also, I'm a pretty laid back mother altogether. One of my kids (16) has a facial piercing. The 12 year old has this huge white dude fro that hangs in his face. Whatever. Those things aren't really important.

I look at discipline as a necessary not-fun part of the job, but a job it is. If I'm not doing my best to guide him & present boundaries, then I'm slacking on my job. The easiest thing to do would be choose the path of least resistance & let them do whatever, but that wouldn't be very responsible.

 

[ygolo]

As to getting off his back about school & reigning in the discipline -- I have chilled out on my expectations. I wish he were self-motivated to achieve, but he's not, & super high achievement can only be motivated intrinsically not extrinsically. That said, I don't think that allowing my son to bring home D's simply because he won't do his homework is acceptable.

Consistently bringing home D's is troublesome to be sure (a couple of screw-ups are probably, OK). How does your son himself, reconcile this with him wanting to go to MIT? Is there any fear/loathing of teachers or bullying from classmates at school that you are not aware of? Maybe he really does need more challenging work also. Whether S or N, I think almost all students prefer hands-on learning to route memorization of theory. Probably most true for an ISTP.

He may not be in high school yet, but even C's in high-school can make dreams of getting into a good engineering research school rather unrealistic. There is no switch to turn on that will make someone a good student all of a sudden.

How close do you live to a research university? Perhaps you can take him there... show him how much work is involved. Perhaps inspire him to do work again.

How is it that parents are able to reassure a child that their worth is not contingent on their performance, while at the same time stressing the consequences of a good work ethic?

A tough job. I'm glad I don't have to do that yet.

 

[Rhadamanthus]

The only thing that motivated me to put any effort into my school work was being told near the end of high school that I probably wouldn't have enough credits to graduate high school. As a matter of fact, I probably wouldn't have been able to graduate had I not been able to switch to another school that required less credits to graduate. Rewards never meant anything to me, and neither did punishment. I abhorred the fact that there were morons who were going to graduate, but I would have to take a GED because I was apathetic and lazy. The idea of failure is the only thing that was able to actually motivate me to put any kind of real effort into my school work.

Most likely differs from person to person, though. You've apparently solved your problem, but I figured I'd respond, anyway, and confirm that reward and punishment sometimes aren't enough to motivate people. If your son is as apathetic and laid back as I, it may take a brush with failure to motivate him. Hopefully, though, your son isn't like me.

 

[sinnamon]

You've apparently solved your problem, but I figured I'd respond, anyway, and confirm that reward and punishment sometimes aren't enough to motivate people. If your son is as apathetic and laid back as I, it may take a brush with failure to motivate him. Hopefully, though, your son isn't like me.

Well, we'll see how his follow-through is. Fortunately, he is becoming a little more self-motivated. He really really loves math & science, especially math. He is interested, so he's doing well in those subjects. If I could just get him to do decently in the other subjects I'd be satisfied.

 

[istpunk]

Good, if you didn't go along with the ISTP plans more than 2-3 times, this would make the ISTP apathetic towards you. Also keep in mind that that the ISTP believes in fair-play/fair-ness so there's no real manipulation behind it.

I know that ISTPs need the reward to be immediate, instead of too far down the road. The more immediate, the better.

I have just learned something in the past couple of weeks about my son (and my ISTP) husband. They are very relationship oriented. I have noticed in the past that my son will do something for me when he wants something. Not in a manipulative way. It's more like, "I understand that this is the way it works. If I want you to do something for me, I have to do something for you."

Or if I took him to the store to get him some clothes he needed - I "did him a favor" - when we got home, he would open my car door for me. This was my reciprocated reward for doing him the favor. What I'm attempting to say, in my very typically poor INTJ way, is that they are very "favor" oriented in their thinking - at least mine are.

You might be able to work this around in your favor - no pun intended.

 

[FFF]

something to watch out for, if you try to scare him or exaggerate and tell him something like he'll be working at McDonalds for the rest of his life if he doesnt get straight As, he'll know you're full of it and then won't take anything you say seriously. Be realistic in your assessments and he'll be more likely to believe you...or at least that's how I am.

My french teacher in high school would tell the bad kids, "McDonalds needs you." It wasn't very effective.

 

[Jae Rae]

This post just reminded me of Cynthia Tobias.
I laughed my head off the first time I heard her on the radio.
Talk about strong-willed!!
Here's her site.
Can't Make Me - For parents of the strong willed child.

One of her books is called:
You Can't Make Me (But I Can Be Persuaded):
Strategies for Bringing Out the Best in your Strong-Willed Child

She was/is a school teacher, too.

I've started reading this book and it's wonderful. The author is a SWC herself and explains why the way things are phrased matters to those kids. The important thing is getting their buy-in so they're making the choices.

I know you had a good talk with your son about getting his homework done. Just wanted to reiterate this author has so many worthwhile things to say, you might enjoy reading the book anyway.

Jae Rae

 

[millerm277]

My french teacher in high school would tell the bad kids, "McDonalds needs you." It wasn't very effective.

The issue with that statement, is that kids can generally tell whether or not something is relavent or not. With ISTP's, if it is, they'll probably be doing decently with it to begin with, and if not, they'll see right through you, and statements like that won't have any effect. (If you can find a way to show it being useful, that can work).

 

[celesul]

I think that having any sort of job helps, even if it is just chores helping neighbors in the summertime. Whatever works. I have had a job working for my dad before, and while it was okay for summer, I know it would be tedious for any period of time longer than that. So I want to have an interesting job.

One of the things my parents have repeatedly told me is that the people at better colleges are probably the sort I'd like more. They point to the annoying, shallow kids in my class, and say that if I slack off, those kids will be my classmates in college. That is a pretty big motivation.

Given that you say he likes school, I'd recommend showing him the grades necessary to get into MIT. (the princeton review websites shows it. You may have to register, I don't remember). Be happy that he at least likes some of his classes (my brother liked none of them, and it was impossible for my parents to motivate him). Also, what are his strengths in school? For example, my memory is extremely bad, but I'm rather good with concepts. Although our honors/AP classes are not easy, they are more conceptual, which is easier for me than memorizing a list. Aside from that, the classes are generally more interesting. If that is true at your school, you could show him that. It is a motivation to work, to get good teachers and classmates, and more interesting work. We also get substantially less busy work. ^.^

 

[Brouhaha]

So I asked him to propose what he felt like was a fair arrangement.

He said that he should have to stay of the pc until I get home (about 30 minutes after he does) & that he should have to do his homework first, let me look at it, & then have pc or TV time for the rest of the evening (except for his chores). I asked what should happen if he started rushing through his work & getting bad grades, & he responded that then he should lose computer priviledges for a week.

I said done.

I also told him I didn't like being the grade Nazi & that I didn't want to have to get on line every day & check up on him & his grades. He said he likes checking them every day himself. I said deal.

He's also much happier with school right now because he started Tech Ed, & the teacher hands them an assignment sheet & they go work on it however & at whatever pace they want.

I'm not going to lie, you sound exactly like my dad when I do poorly. He always called me out and had me tell him what I thought should be done just like you. Then afterward he would do the same thing as you about not wanting to be over bearing.

I know it's redundant and all, but punishment does nothing. Whenever I was punished, or more often just nagged, I would simply ignore my parents. If they told me they were limiting computer time, I would observe the punishment for about a week.

Certainly the most effective thing for me when it came to motivating me to work was my parent's disappointment when I did poorly. I always hated that. So yes, just be open with your son. That's my advice.

 

[Unique]

I agree with those that said you have to explain why the homework is important the task itself, SPs need to see value in what they do or they move onto something else...

Of course *chuckle* you would have a hard time convincing me homework is important

The rich didn't get rich from American education haha (no offense guys... Aussie education isn't really that much better.)

 

[Tiny Army]

I have an ISTP younger brother who has been failing high school classes for years. He's also one of Sony's youngest employees and makes more money than I do.


I found the only way to motivate him to do homework is to somehow find a way to turn that homework into a way to subvert authority even more. If he thinks a homework assignment is stupid I come up with ways for him to continue to make his statement that the assignment is stupid while still doing the assignment.

Example: In the 6th grade the guidance counselor made his whole grade write an essay about their deepest personal fear. I suggested that he write about how his deepest personal fear is having to write about his deepest personal fear.

 

[Brouhaha]

Example: In the 6th grade the guidance counselor made his whole grade write an essay about their deepest personal fear. I suggested that he write about how his deepest personal fear is having to write about his deepest personal fear.

you should have seen the letter I had to write to the bishop when I was being confirmed. It was awesome. But yeah, that might work. Maybe.