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[MBTI General] ISFPs/ENFPS

KDude

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Well, I don't need logical consistency in horror. For me, horror is about aesthetics and atmosphere and fun over everything else. Horror is its own "bubble" as you said.

I also don't need factual accuracy if a movie is extremely cool in cinematography and soundtrack, like Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette. So I tend to sacrifice fact and realism if I can get aesthetic rewards in return, so to speak.

However, if a show or movie is supposed to be 'realistic' but the characters do really unbelievable things, then I get annoyed. I'm not even explaining this well, but it's something that has happened to me repeatedly, the thought of "oh yeah right" and totally losing interest.

I haven't seen Marie Antoinette.. I'll check it out.

I like period pieces or realism too, but I can't say I have much preference for it.

And it isn't aesthetics that win me over on things, to be honest. It's usually some fundamental premise or symbolism.. or just good storywriting (which I guess can be associated with aesthetics). This is definitely one thing where I feel like less of an SP. I never like art for it's own sake. Some things may be highly stylized, but I can still be somewhat disappointed. Since you mentioned Coppola, I thought Lost in Translation was a lot of style over substance. The whole film is beautiful, but it feels like it's meandering.. inconclusive. I'm not sure what the point is. Which is more like real life, I guess. People don't live out "stories", but just experiences. It's just not my thing exactly. The same need can be translated into horror, where I prefer a clever, underlying plot or some symbolism before I can enjoy the individual scenes, gags, and shocking elements. Some horror films pull off both though.. Dawn of the Dead (both versions) is both clever and done well, aesthetically speaking. Dracula isn't scary, but it's badass on multiple levels too.
 

Thalassa

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I haven't seen Marie Antoinette.. I'll check it out.

If you don't like Lost in Translation or The Virgin Suicides for the sheer beauty she imbues into films you won't care for Marie Antoinette either.

I like period pieces or realism too, but I can't say I have much preference for it.

I live for that, in terms of cinema; period pieces and horror, some comedy.

And it isn't aesthetics that win me over on things, to be honest. It's usually some fundamental premise or lesson.. or just good storywriting (which I guess can be associated with aesthetics). This is definitely one thing where I feel like less of an SP. Some things may be highly stylized, but I can still be somewhat disappointed. Since you mentioned Coppola, I thought Lost in Translation was a lot of style over substance. The whole film is beautiful, but it feels like it's meandering.. inconclusive. Which is more like real life, I guess. People don't live out "stories", but just experiences. It's just not my thing exactly.

Oh see I'm opposite...I prefer things to be open ended and meandering like real life *unless it's a mystery novel* and style can really win me over. I'm very picky about what style I prefer - I won't watch just any old CGI crap - but yeah I love cinematography, sets, costumes, soundtracks, and special effects.


The same need can be translated into horror, where I prefer a clever, underlying plot or some symbolism before I can enjoy the gags and the shocking elements. Some horror films pull off both.. Dawn of the Dead (both versions) is both clever and done well, aesthetically speaking.

I've been in love with horror since I was a kid, don't know what it is exactly, can't really tell you...however, I like "beautiful" horror the best, stuff like Don't Look Now and The Shining...or things that stylistically amazing with a psychological undertone such as The Exorcist, Carrie, or more recently Rob Zombie's revamp of Halloween. It's so good I had to watch it twice in a row.

Now I have to have this level of style, though, something has to pull me in that's not just "torture porn." I don't watch horror just to watch people get slowly tortured, I'm a bit averse to those films, and I find a lot of newer horror to be stylistically bland as compared to the more innovative and aesthetically superior horror of the 60s, and 70s. I also like some 80s horror for the whole feel and atmosphere of the 80's.
 

OrangeAppled

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I love fantasy :p

I don't think too much about suspension of belief so much as logical consistency within a story.. Does it work within it's own little "bubble"? If so, then I'm completely fine with it.

If not, I'll bring it up.. Like the other night my friends rented that new Nightmare on Elm Street. At the end, I started wondering why Freddy even had those powers over people's dreams to begin with. At first, I thought.. maybe he was rewarded with them because he got screwed in life.. But then, the writer threw that completely out the window when it came out that Freddy wasn't justified at all. He was a child rapist.

It could have made sense in some far fetched way if he wasn't.. like I could suspend my belief enough to believe some unknown entity gave him the power so he could enact vengeance. But seeing that that he wasn't innocent, none of it made sense. And it's not like he sold his soul or partook in some "evil" ritual to get that way either. He was just some random creep who got burned by the people in that town... and all of the sudden, he becomes this unstoppable force, with like.. 13 sequels to his name. Wtf is up that?

This is soooo "Fi logic" - you need a moral reason, a consistency in feeling.
This reminds me of when I watched this anime vampire movie (an INTJ made me!). The premise of the movie was that this girl was kidnapped by a vampire & this team has to rescue her (they're pro vampire killers). But then you come to find out she ran away with the vampire because she fell in love with him. So then I'm like, "Why did she fall in love with him?"; and the INTJ says, "The movie never says why; that's not the point of the story". Then I automatically find it stupid. I hate when characters fall in love because the script says so, especially when one of the characters is basically EVIL. I need a GOOD reason to believe they are in love. How can I accept the rest of the movie if the feeling behind the premise has no plausible reason?

If you don't like Lost in Translation or The Virgin Suicides for the sheer beauty she imbues into films you won't care for Marie Antoinette either.

Have you seen Bright Star? Sooo gorgeous and it's about John Keats :wub:
I'm an aesthetic myself, so I don't know if this is an S/N thing so much as Fi idealism of beauty. Plus visual atmospheres do impart MOOD, which is significant in itself to me. /tangent
 

KDude

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If you don't like Lost in Translation or The Virgin Suicides for the sheer beauty she imbues into films you won't care for Marie Antoinette either.

I'm still openminded.. :cool: I'll watch it.

I live for that, in terms of cinema; period pieces and horror, some comedy.

As far as historical dramas go, have you seen HBO's Rome? I say I don't have a preference for period stuff, but that's probably the best thing that's been on TV in years.
 

KDude

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This is soooo "Fi logic" - you need a moral reason, a consistency in feeling.

Hah.. Maybe you're right. It's funny how much I try to hide my moral reasoning in things, but you weeded me out instantly. :D
 

Thalassa

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Have you seen Bright Star? Sooo gorgeous and it's about John Keats :wub:
I'm an aesthetic myself, so I don't know if this is an S/N thing so much as Fi idealism of beauty. Plus visual atmospheres do impart MOOD, which is significant in itself to me. /tangent

True: atmosphere is about mood and could just be an Fi thing, totally.

However, I also crave a certain bit of action, and I honestly don't know a whole lot of NFs who like horror as much as I do...I know one, and she's on this forum, and I'm not sure that she likes horror as much as I do, but she does like horror. Many NFs seem ethically repelled by the idea of living out Id experiences even via DVD. I've experienced a lot of head-shaking over my interest in horror not only here from NFs, but also on LiveJournal.

Hmmm...what else. Oh yeah, my fleeting outbursts of temper which I almost always quickly get over; reports from people that they see "Te" from me on the forum a lot (which very well could be Se instead); people saying I seem SFP over and over and over again in ventrillo...ah, also an ENFP who met me in person said she didn't really see my Ne or Te when she met me in person...I've also begun wondering if I relate to some of these descriptions of Ni because I'm actually using it myself, albeit in a tertiary/inferior manner.

I think I'd also frankly like to do something more hands-on in terms of career, and I'm sick to death of academics, though I love to read what I want to read on my own time.

I also get told that I'm being "anecdotal" - I'm always telling these stories from my personal life experience and that does not equal "theorizing."
 

KDude

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Yeah, I can't identify with the idealism applied to stuff like horror films. Since I've been reading more Socionics stuff lately, it seemed more extreme there.. Like INFJs would walk out of the room at any hint of violence on TV. I'm sorry, but damn.. Not only am I not like that, but I tempted just to poke fun at it too (which I won't, but I could).

I don't like any of the torture crap like you either though (for example, Hostel).. that's definitely tasteless and unnecessary. That, and even if there's not much torture, too much brutality would get me turning away (like some scenes in those Final Destination films). I'm idealistic enough that I don't get off on gore and DO cheer for the good guy though :cool:
 

Thalassa

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I don't like any of the torture crap like you either though (for example, Hostel).. that's definitely tasteless and unnecessary. That, and even if there's not much torture, too much brutality would get me turning away (like some scenes in those Final Destination films). I'm idealistic enough that I don't get off on gore and DO cheer for the good guy though :cool:

I don't turn away from gore in horror films, and I enjoy the visceral experience of some violent scenes, like L'Interieur. What's awesome about being me ;) is that I have a fantastic grasp of what is real and what isn't, and therefore can enjoy the rush out watching two women bludgeon each other to death in a totally ridiculous slasher film way, but I will cry my eyes out over realistic suffering ...like seeing the photograph of a badly burned veteran of the war in Iraq who is only in his twenties and was a handsome young man before being sent to battle.

Hostel doesn't scare me, the world news does.

The thing is, too, is that ISFPs are supposed to be a bit idealistic because of Fi. Also they share some supposedly NF traits that seem somewhat not-SP-ish like being sensitive to criticism.

I used to think that there was a preposterous sheltered attitude that some upper-middle class people have. Maybe that's it, or maybe they're just NFs and I'm not.

I don't mind either way anymore. Whatever type I am, so be it.
 

OrangeAppled

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^ My ISFP step-dad says he liked violence when he was young, but now he avoids it for his own moral reasons. He has a strange ascetic take on life now though...

Ethics aside - I just don't find it enjoyable to watch. I'm not desensitized to it in a way that is unusual. Most people can handle more violence than I can. I think I empathize too easily with fictional characters; even the minor ones treated as "expendable" are too easy for me to identify with, just on the level of being human & alive even. I can handle PG-13 violence and after that I look away or don't watch it at all of that's a big part of the movie.
 

KDude

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The thing is, too, is that ISFPs are supposed to be a bit idealistic because of Fi. Also they share some supposedly NF traits that seem somewhat not-SP-ish like being sensitive to criticism.

I'm sensitive to criticism, but not in a "WAAH.. leave me alone" way. I just want to be respected. I might just fight with them, depending if they're trying to be dominant or flippant in some way. If it's merely instructive, I have no problem with someone teaching me a better way to do something. I ask people questions all of the time anyways. Any hint of condescension though means I'll probably put them in a position that requires them to kick my ass or gtfo. I mean.. It just seems like some people criticize without being polite, or even coupling it with an insult. So I make them live out the full reality of this supposed badass-in-charge attitude, if they can. Which they can't. I'm not uber-sensitive to criticism, because I already know that the harshest critics are completely full of shit, and just act that way because they are spoiled, and people let them get away with it all of their lives. My role is to screw that up for them. In some cases, it helps them rethink their approach with people, and I ended up being friends.
 

Thalassa

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ha ha...yeah the drama thing is associated with xSFPs and ENFPs both...and yep, totally, if someone is just showing me the right way to do something I would never bat an eyelash, but yeah if someone is talking down to me I'm more likely to argue with them, totally.

Let me ask you kind of a strange question; this might not make any sense to you at all but...I remember telling my sister that one of the things that I bonded with my ESFJ ex over were things like film and music, and how important that was to me, and she looked at me like I had three heads and said "those are just colors and sounds, and it has nothing to do with the way a person treats you." Well...duh...but those colors and sounds can make me feel understood in a non-verbal way that transcends other things sometimes, it's like a world we were able to share - of course my ex and I were both very physically affectionate and were best friends after we knew each other for a year, so um, yeah there is more to our relationship that common aesthetic interests...but anyhoo I noticed that my ethical value system is looser when choosing a mate, like even when I had spiritual beliefs I dated atheists, and my ex was so patently against politics that he never even registered to vote.

I'm going off on a tangent here...what I'm saying though is that I recently didn't date but did form a bond with someone (another SFJ) in a similar manner despite differing political beliefs, and he's a lifelong atheist while I'm more agnostic or non-religious-but-spiritual on any given day...the important thing was is that I felt comfortable with him, could talk to him, and it seemed like the fact that we liked so much of the same music was a hinge the friendship revolved around in the beginning. It made me feel understood.

I'm probably not making much sense, but it seems to me an NF might be more likely to be sure that they got emotionally involved with someone who was more likely to definitely share their political party or spiritual beliefs.

Anyway my question is: does this make any sense to you? Maybe not. Maybe I'm just rambling.
 

Rebe

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what about infps in this comparison? are infps more like (rather, seem more like) isfps or enfps?

I'm probably not making much sense, but it seems to me an NF might be more likely to be sure that they got emotionally involved with someone who was more likely to definitely share their political party or spiritual beliefs.

my (seriously) religious ISFJ friend dated an atheist INTP and thought seriously about marriage/children. i immediately knew to point out that their religious belief would hinder any sort of permanent union while she denied it for a while before she agreed/accepted too. she was all like, respect for each other and love is enough. i just sat there shaking my head, no, no. religion/politics is a huge fundamental difference.
 

OrangeAppled

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I'm probably not making much sense, but it seems to me an NF might be more likely to be sure that they got emotionally involved with someone who was more likely to definitely share their political party or spiritual beliefs.

Anyway my question is: does this make any sense to you? Maybe not. Maybe I'm just rambling.

This is a big obstacle for me....because I want BOTH. I find those I connect with over interests are not necessarily people I share spiritual beliefs with, and vice verse. It was trial and error that taught me that I need to put my beliefs over my interests in dating; I just find my interests to be things I have less chance to discuss IRL, so to find someone who shares them excites me & can create insta-attraction. It just seriously narrows the field to want both though...

I thought my ESFP ex bf was BOTH, but I learned that what appeared to be shared interests was not so, or at least there was such a different reasoning behind it that we may as well have had different interests. The shared religion was NOT enough for me. Of course, personality & general compatibility is a factor also.

what about infps in this comparison? are infps more like (rather, seem more like) isfps or enfps?

I think it's hard to tell either way. In person, I think IxFPs are harder, because you can usually tell that an ENFP is extroverted. Online, a clear NF Ne user can seem either, or a clear Fi-dom can seem either, depending on your perspective.
 

Thalassa

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^^^

yeah, I know an INFJ who basically said she could never get involved with a guy who wasn't a registered Democrat when I was showing interest first in a moderate Republican, and then later an anarcho-capitalist libertarian

I've also seen the NF "ideal man" lists where this seemed to be a huge, huge issue to quite a few NFs but to me, not so much

however, I'm sure I'm drawn to a particular kind of mindset, a certain way of being, some similar values...in fact I wonder if I like atheists because they seem so logical or realistic in a way, and also because organized religion is something I tend to avoid...soooo
 

You

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Whenever I think ISFP, all I can think of is Jimi Hendrix and Andre 3000. Those type of personas...There is something obviously very similiar to INFPs. I think it more comes about because of the FP thing. I dont claim to know a lot about the whole MBTI, but those kind of women and men always come off very people orienated.
 

KDude

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I consider myself spiritual, and some morality in another person matters to me, but it's not quite as specific. As long as they're humanitarian in some general sense? I mean, I prefer "nice" people at least. hah.. I don't mind if they're atheists though. Shared artistic interests does seem to matter more (in practice) than the ethical stuff maybe. I mean, I know I'm just more relaxed, and keep wanting to talk with someone when we share interests on music or movies or books..

I have an ESTJ friend who's totally hung up on this at the moment. He's got everything going for him with this one girl, but he's afraid of dating her because she's atheist. It boggles my mind.. I think he's screwing up, but whatever. Maybe not.
 

OrangeAppled

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^ I used to be open to atheists until I've had a few insult me on dates for not being atheist. I had a religious guy insult me too (different religion, but still "Christian"), and grill me about my beliefs on a date. I realized I can't be with someone who does not respect my beliefs, and that is hard for other people when they don't share them. I guess I was wrong to think it would not be such a big deal. Being open-minded is sort of overrated in dating, IMO. It leaves you open to jerks & losers.... I've realized it's not idealistic to have some basic standards, but realistic.
 

OrangeAppled

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Whenever I think ISFP, all I can think of is Jimi Hendrix and Andre 3000. Those type of personas...There is something obviously very similiar to INFPs. I think it more comes about because of the FP thing. I dont claim to know a lot about the whole MBTI, but those kind of women and men always come off very people orienated.

I find ESFPs & INFPs to be very different though. People say my ESFP sister & I are like night & day. I have a lot of ESFP friends and I don't really "relate" to them, even though I like them. I think once you have more than one letter change, someone will seem significantly different.
 

KDude

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Whenever I think ISFP, all I can think of is Jimi Hendrix and Andre 3000. Those type of personas...There is something obviously very similiar to INFPs. I think it more comes about because of the FP thing. I dont claim to know a lot about the whole MBTI, but those kind of women and men always come off very people orienated.

I don't doubt they're ISFP, but I don't put out that colorful, groovy vibe well myself. Some people's first impressions amaze me, and I end up having to actually work at confirming that I'm more like that than they think. I hope this doesn't come out wrong, but I might be a little too cool for my own good (cool in the sense of being a little held back). I have some ideas of some celebrities who might be like this, and might be ISFP, but it's probably not worth mentioning. They could be NFP for all I know :D
 

Thalassa

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I find ESFPs & INFPs to be very different though. People say my ESFP sister & I are like night & day. I have a lot of ESFP friends and I don't really "relate" to them, even though I like them. I think once you have more than one letter change, someone will seem significantly different.

Well my mother and I are a lot alike - we both like animals, like to cook, have many of the same attention-getting behaviors...she was even a dancer when she was young and kind of had the same propensity to run off to other places before she had children...my father and her were in seven different states while she was pregnant with me. We have similar emotional behavior, similar weaknesses.

However, I am more bookish and serious and not quite as over-the-top.

That's one of the reasons why I think ENFP or ISFP. My mom is ESFP and I'm like a slightly altered version of her.

I would say "smarter" version of her, but that's wrong of me to say.
 
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