[MBTI General] Not another ENFJ-ISTP thread...

[Windigo]

^ wish I was an ENTJ...

No! Embrace who you are! My best friend is an amazing ENFJ lady who's a wonderful mix of passion, confusion, fear and persistence and strength. You have amazing gifts of encouraging and nurturing people. You have a desire to see the world changed for better. You are warm and funny and accepting. My friend is married to an ISTJ who is very patient with her mood swings and helps her remain focused. They have been married for 2-1/2 years and are currently teaching overseas. They make a wonderful couple. Wait for the person who thinks you're so amazing that he can't stay away from you.

At the risk of sounding old fashioned I learned that sex is a good way of confusing things in the beginning of a relationship. When I was younger I thought sex should be part of the deal but it always left me feeling progressively lonelier and unloveable when they ultimately moved on (usually after 3 months).

For personal reasons I decided to wait until marriage and be up front with the potential men on the first date. A lot of guys got angry and never called me again. I shrugged them off much easier without all the emotional baggage that sex inevitably throws into the mix.

When I told the ISTP the same thing he visibly relaxed. Not what I was expecting. But now that the pressure was off him we were able to take it one day at a time without a lot of drama and as things progressed I think he really enjoyed testing my resolve.

You can blast my opinion if you want, but I think that most guys deep down inside like to know that a girl who is strong enough to hold them at bay for 6 months or whatever is one they can trust not to hook up with a neighbor after they are married. I think guys actually like the security although many may not admit it in public.

So I would caution all "ye fair and tender ladies, (to) take warning how you court your men . . ." Leave sex for after you know you genuinely like and respect the guy as a person without all the endorphins making it confusing.

One of the reasons why I love my ISTP husband.

Agreed. There is no better gift in the world than being truly accepted for who you are. The intimacy and passion that blossoms in such a relationship is a rare gift indeed.

 

[toast]

No! Embrace who you are! My best friend is an amazing ENFJ lady who's a wonderful mix of passion, confusion, fear and persistence and strength. You have amazing gifts of encouraging and nurturing people. You have a desire to see the world changed for better. You are warm and funny and accepting. My friend is married to an ISTJ who is very patient with her mood swings and helps her remain focused. They have been married for 2-1/2 years and are currently teaching overseas. They make a wonderful couple. Wait for the person who thinks you're so amazing that he can't stay away from you.

I dig that 'make him wait' idea.
I'm just whining 'cause I have an ISTP, and I want to be with him in every way but I just can't handle it. Just thinking about him makes me not want to be myself. I feel like all the things I don't like about being an ENFJ only surface (and all at once) when I'm too involved with him. I've been trying like you wouldn't believe to get away from him & regenerate. We are young & I don't plan on losing him as a friend so who knows, maybe we'll grow into something that works. Its terribly frustrating though because I am extremely impatient & I consistently wish I had what it takes to be happy with him now. I really, really like ISTPs. :steam:

 

[Windigo]

Patience comes through pain. Ah the sad truth of it. Unfortunately it goes against our grain and we can only learn it when we get burned one too many times for grasping for the prize before we are ready.

You need a quest. Something bigger than yourself. This may sound crazy, but when I decided to avoid my ISTP I prayed and asked for something to take my mind off him. The next week I was invited to be a back up singer in a band. It was fun and I got to hang around fun and exciting people and I only thought about my ISTP when I was feeling lonely at night. I had almost completely forgotten him when we ran into each other at a part a year later.

I'm not saying that you will end up with this particular ISTP, but if you develop some ISTP interests (skydiving, bass fishing, motorcycle racing to name a few) you may meet a more mature ISTP who captures your heart. Just remember that you must learn NOT to push them in ANY way. They are the immovable object. You must be the irresistible force! LOL

 

[toast]

Just remember that you must learn NOT to push them in ANY way. They are the immovable object. You must be the irresistible force! LOL

How do the heck do you manage that?! haha.
I have no idea how to be anything different. I would describe myself already as the irresistible force. I have such a complex about pushing people directly, but I influence, I coerce, I find loopholes that make it "their decision." Its just a natural thing, and I have trouble identifying where to change it because its never based on making people more like 'me', but rather more like I feel they should be to be happier or more successful. Sometimes its as simple as just getting closer to them if they do it, which happens without me being aware of it, & seems natural and perfectly fine. I don't like when I realize I'm influencing or trying to influence someone. So it stays subconscious usually. Its very hard to know how not to push when all I see is the future. I've tried just trying to make the other person be happy 'in the moment' & it usually collapses because it just seems to meaningless.

I really think it may be hopeless because I can't separate from my feelings enough to back away, stay away but stay close enough for him to meet me halfway when he's ready. I'm sort of in the middle of doing this right now & its not working. I feel like its all redeeming to everyone BUT the ISTP, because everyone else sees that I'm not trying to push, I'm just concerned. He doesn't care whether or not I'm concerned. He could give a crap why I'm doing it as long as I'm pushing. And I don't know how to say: "I'm concerned"... I do it through pushing maybe.

 

[Willfrey]

ISTP's are like typology's Rubix Cube. You can't figure us out, yet still you can't keep yer hands off us

 

[sLiPpY]

ISTP's are like typology's Rubix Cube. You can't figure us out, yet still you can't keep yer hands off us

shh! they might figure out the solution matrix.

 

[toast]

shh! they might figure out the solution matrix.

Too friggen true, ridiculously so.

 

[Benny]

The amount of posts dealing with ISTP's jerking around these poor people still amazes me. Even though just about every post is about something I've been through. I'm not proud of it either, by the way. We really are some unruly sons of bitches aren't we.

 

[Rainne]

The amount of posts dealing with ISTP's jerking around these poor people still amazes me. Even though just about every post is about something I've been through. I'm not proud of it either, by the way. We really are some unruly sons of bitches aren't we.

ISTPs are not for the emotionally needy.

 

[toast]

^ True. Though their 'emotionally un-neediness' can make someone more needy by proximity, not necessarily through fault of their own. Its not as simple as 'steer clear if you're high maintenance.'

 

[lalangela]

I agree with toast. I have never been needy but the ISTP's emotional un-neediness brought it out of me. I'm reverting back to my old self as I'm pursued by others (such as another ENFJ), but even when I talk to the ISTP now, on a friendly basis, it's like having white noise in my mind. My emotions don't make any sense.

 

[Windigo]

How do the heck do you manage that?! haha.
I have no idea how to be anything different. I would describe myself already as the irresistible force. I have such a complex about pushing people directly, but I influence, I coerce, I find loopholes that make it "their decision." Its just a natural thing, and I have trouble identifying where to change it because its never based on making people more like 'me', but rather more like I feel they should be to be happier or more successful. Sometimes its as simple as just getting closer to them if they do it, which happens without me being aware of it, & seems natural and perfectly fine. I don't like when I realize I'm influencing or trying to influence someone. So it stays subconscious usually. Its very hard to know how not to push when all I see is the future. I've tried just trying to make the other person be happy 'in the moment' & it usually collapses because it just seems to meaningless.

I really think it may be hopeless because I can't separate from my feelings enough to back away, stay away but stay close enough for him to meet me halfway when he's ready. I'm sort of in the middle of doing this right now & its not working. I feel like its all redeeming to everyone BUT the ISTP, because everyone else sees that I'm not trying to push, I'm just concerned. He doesn't care whether or not I'm concerned. He could give a crap why I'm doing it as long as I'm pushing. And I don't know how to say: "I'm concerned"... I do it through pushing maybe.

I would steer clear of the ISTP type in general then. It will leave you doubting yourself, emotionally drained and depressed. It is better to find a nice ISFP who will value your vision and passion.

ISTPs value someone who can crack the code without being in their face and demanding how they feel about things.

I spent the first two years of my marriage NEVER hearing the words "I love you." I learned to let the squeeze of my hand during an intensely romantic scene in an Anime movie suffice. He has gotten better at communicating his love for me in the past two years (of 8 years of marriage). I had to see the non-verbal clues and though I sometimes felt hurt by his blase attitude, I realized after a while through his actions that there was a lot of depth and passion beneath his surface passivity.

There are also periods of 2-3 days where he disappears into his cave (either coming home late from work which happens a lot or working on a project in the garage or playing video games). You have to be prepared to deal with the loneliness this will inevitably bring. Because I tend to work late need a lot of time for my many projects as well, it works out for us.

As an ENTJ I have revamped my image of a "perfect family" to include these necessities for him.
I used to try to push him to follow my "vision for the future." But I have learned that they simply will not be pushed even if you see some grand plan for improving their future. They really are take it one day at a time type of people. If they are uncomfortable they will change but not necessarily in the way that you see as best.

Their guiding principle is NOT to be controlled. (Just as an ENFPs guiding principle is to eschew hypocrisy). They must maintain a sense of freedom and independence at all costs. If they find they are doing something that they HAVE to and not WANT to they will resist.

They are fined tuned to realize before you do that you are trying to "push them into their best" and will immediately take evasive action before you realize what is happening. This occurs on a subconscious level for them.

None of this changes when you are married. You just have to be happy with them the way they are and enjoy the unfolding adventure of being with them.

I don't care if my ISTP forgets my birthday, or hates going to art museums with me, or that he doesn't share my passion for history . . . but I like the security of knowing if there's a zombie apocalypse I have a fighting chance with him at my side.

 

[lasdf23]

It's funny how after my problem came to an end I see yet another ENFJ going through the same thing with the same personality type. What is it with us?!

I hope you've read the thread I started 2 months ago, if you haven't, it's right here:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/sp-arthouse/27276-istp-friends-benefits-relationships.html

You probably don't realize how similar our stories are, from the almost daily back-and-forth between feeling of understanding the ISTP guy to utter confusion by his action, to his insensitivity to our need for emotional consistency. I didn't put this part on my original thread, but I actually caught (overheard in person) the ISTP guy I was involved with fooling around with another girl too. He lied to me about it, and convinced me that it's either I trust him or I don't. I wanted to trust him, but so many facts were pointing otherwise. YET, I still gave him the benefits of doubt and continued trying to salvage my situation. He tried a couple of times to string me along, but as soon as we decided to put an end to our physical relationship, he moved on to the girl he was fooling with. Long stories short, we don't talk anymore.
-
If the overwhelming feeling you get from him is "confusion," do not go for it. When I wrote first on the forum, the majority advice was "know what YOU want." I thought I knew what I want, trying to convince myself that it's ok if it's only a FWB relationship because that's what I want too. The problem was, "what I wanted" changed daily. One day I'd be ok with how it was, but another day, when I suspected him and that other girl, I'd get jealous and lose control of my emotions. Having that kind of obsessive, depressive thoughts is really scary, it took me the entire 2 months afterwards to finally get a grip of myself again.

So be careful what you do. Don't over think. If you find yourself over thinking and guessing his motives, you're just asking for trouble. When he moves on to another girl for whatever reason (he doesn't want to deal with your constant request for emotional reassurance, etc), you will be the one left to cry by yourself.

(Sorry for the blunt pessimistic views but I realized you cannot jump into an involved situation with an ISTP without fully knowing who he is playing by his terms. This is not to say that the ISTP terms are the better/correct ones. It's just that we can provide what ISTP wants (fun, companionship, etc), but we require something in return that the ISTP is usually not able to give at this stage in his life. The result is a mismatch, and ENFJs are the ones hurt by it)

 

[lalangela]

I've been following your thread meticulously. I guess I was looking for a glimmer of hope in all of these stories that ended with the enfj getting hurt. Haha the idealist in me wanted to see a fairy tale ending somewhere.

I know for a fact that he won't be pursuing anything with the one night stand. Both of them are pretending it never happened although I see her trying to get close to him. The ISTP and I are on good terms which is all I can really ask for or deal with at this point. It's not confusion as so much I want to know how he feels about me. However, this ISTP is so immature and I see indicators of this such as when he openly talked about his ex, her flaws and their sex life, on a public website. It was demeaning to read something like that. I don't see myself meshing well with him in a relationship if there's a possibility of this happening after.

 

[Windigo]

However, this ISTP is so immature and I see indicators of this such as when he openly talked about his ex, her flaws and their sex life, on a public website. It was demeaning to read something like that. I don't see myself meshing well with him in a relationship if there's a possibility of this happening after.

Wow, that is just really immature. I can't imagine my ISTP doing anything like that. My husband doesn't talk bad about ANYBODY. He believes that the past is the past and it isn't anybody's business. I don't think that is typical ISTP behavior . . . just a sign that he is REALLY immature.

I think that any two types can work out if they work HARD at it, but the ENFJs I know get their feelings hurt very easily and they are prone to a lot of self doubt and seem to need a lot of affirmation from others. I don't think affirmation comes easy for ISTPs.

On the other hand if you love someone enough to work through it you can have that fairy tale ending and as an ENFJ you can help your (F) children understand how to read their dad's love for them. (Showing up for sports, helping them with their science projects, but not so much hanging around talking about their personal stuff.) I do believe in fairy tales, but I believe they take a lot of HARD work and courage to come true.

 

[toast]

I've been following your thread meticulously. I guess I was looking for a glimmer of hope in all of these stories that ended with the enfj getting hurt. Haha the idealist in me wanted to see a fairy tale ending somewhere.

Hah! I got your fairytale ending right here! He's sitting right beside me ignoring me buried in a DS screen because I wrote him a letter that he didn't feel like reading & I won't watch Dexter with him.

I'm surprised by how well lasdf23 sounds after all that crap she went through. I remember talking to her when I thought I was on the verge of a better 'ending' with my ISTP. Truth is, there is no 'ending' in a conflicting relationship really... how could there be? Its just day to day ups and downs. I am currently not sleeping with him, but we still talk & hang out all the time. We still live together (for now) though I've decided we aren't "together" & he's decided that's "not going to happen." I still have emotional breakdowns (especially since things aren't solid right now), and he still helps me out when he can & runs away when he can't.

On a lighter note, he's my best friend, he's still the most important person in the world to me & he still lets me know I'm the same to him. But the conflict will never be over. Its definitely lessened when we keep enough distance to stay clear headed (so I'm thinking friendship will end up the permanent state of this relationship), and we are young, as are you other ENFJs going through this & your ISTPs. Makes a huge difference, I'm positive. We have likely not developed those functions which make us handle that conflict better (on both sides). They will be stronger ISTPs as far as base functioning and we will be stronger ENFJs I think. So you have an increased conflict because we are super angsty & they are super antsy, even without the fuel we feed the other's fire.

I do feel for you girls so much. This is a big sh*t storm but hopefully it'll make us stronger in the long run.

And thank you so much Windigo. It makes me feel good just hearing about how you get to experience the highs of being with an ISTP, and he makes you happy in a way that makes him happy. I try to imagine this kind of relationship sometimes just because it makes me feel good to remember that it can happen. Maybe someday I'll have what I need to pull it off or learn to find the same kind of joy in a friendship with my ISTP.

 

[Windigo]

toast, you already sound like you've learned so much from this relationship. You are an amazing person to be so strong through so much.

 

[lalangela]

I'm really envious of toast because I can't seem to get to her level of strength. The ISTP is back to treating me like a companion, initiating conversation, and showing interest in my life. I've learned enough that I don't want to pursue him for a relationship but I can't help my attraction to him. I resist and I know I'm not brave enough to just pounce him but that doesn't stop me from having thoughts about it. Sometimes I feel that as an ENFJ, I restrain myself so much that I miss out on experiences that others gladly partake in. Why should I stop myself from a typical hook up just because I'm an ENFJ?

 

[foolish heart]

I'm really envious of toast because I can't seem to get to her level of strength. The ISTP is back to treating me like a companion, initiating conversation, and showing interest in my life. I've learned enough that I don't want to pursue him for a relationship but I can't help my attraction to him. I resist and I know I'm not brave enough to just pounce him but that doesn't stop me from having thoughts about it. Sometimes I feel that as an ENFJ, I restrain myself so much that I miss out on experiences that others gladly partake in. Why should I stop myself from a typical hook up just because I'm an ENFJ?

You have standards based on your emotional needs. Determine your needs, set boundaries accordingly, then be unrelenting about them. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, but if you can catch one you can catch another that will meet yours as they are. Don't let the high level of attraction tempt you to settle.

This guy wants to bend you out of your comfort zone and into his. Our aloofness makes all but the most resilient people melt, but this is generally not in your best interests. Your ability to keep his attention denotes value that a similar guy who is more mature and suitable will also recognize. Understand how much you have going for you, listen to your feelings and they will empower you to stand your ground with this guy and the next.

 

[toast]

I'm really envious of toast because I can't seem to get to her level of strength.

Listen to LuckynoLimits because that's pretty much every bit of good advice I've heard summed into 2 inches of line space.

Oh lalangela... I am so where you are, trust me. I'm not feeling strong at all. I get moments, but I was on the board coming to this post because I am going through the same thing exactly. He's in the other room & he wants to watch a movie with me & I am stalling because I know once we are side by side it'll take all I can muster to keep from "pouncing", or heaven forbid - bringing 'it' up again & trying to talk. I've done "well" so far only externally, in that I can communicate with him successfully enough to keep me from exploding & him from giving up on trying to spend time with me... but internally I'm a wreck, believe me. sigh... time.