[MBTI General] Not another ENFJ-ISTP thread...

[lalangela]

Yesterday, the ISTP was angry about something. He initiated conversation, saying that "he remembered why he hates people." From an ENFJ perspective, that is a depressing statement. He's rarely ever angry so I was particularly curious as to what could have pissed him off. I didn't try to force it out of him so I simply recognized that he was angry and expected him to talk about it if it wasn't really bothering him. Should I have directly asked him to talk about it? I'm not sure if he told me because he was amazingly good at tabling his anger and joking around. I feel like my conversations with him are becoming fake and shallow because I'm trying so hard not to give any hints about my true feelings. I even said that I was never planning on getting married, something that it completely outrageous, because I was worried that talking about my view on marriage would somehow reveal how I feel about him.

There's another ENFJ in my life. He's older than me, but he's more needy than I am. I wake up to texts saying that he misses me when we haven't even started dating. I dislike this aspect of him, but I'm horrible at saying no. I enjoy talking to the ENFJ but I don't see a future with him. Then again, I second guess my doubts because it may be because I'm still caught up with the ISTP. Every time I take a step forward, I glance back to see if the ISTP is holding out his hand for me. How poetic, I know.

To toast, and any other NFs in general, when you're trying to get over someone else, do you start looking else where? Or do you take your time and enjoy the single life until you're completely over that other person?

 

[sLiPpY]

lalangela, I too "hate" people. It's very odd. I'm warm, I'm friendly...easy going. But I frickn' hate most people, especially the one's I don't know or trust.

I suspect it's a left over thought/feeling that was beneficial for the survival of humanity at one point or another. Lots of people think/feel that way. I've noticed it more so among ISTP's I've known in daily life. Might just be inherent to the area I live in.

It's in the South, where all us southerners know that "Bless your dear, sweet heart." Is grandma speak for "Go f* ck yourself!"

We even talk about having gone somewhere and our general disgust and disdain for people in general. Or more illusively, "Yeah, I know exactly what you are saying."

Then out of the blue I find myself talking with a stranger, and quickly forget I held that sence of general disdain at all.

 

[lalangela]

do you also talk to those you hook up with and tell them that you think the ENFJ would make a clingy girlfriend? Oh, and then tell the ENFJ that you hate the girl you hooked up with and plan to break all communication with her?

 

[sLiPpY]

do you also talk to those you hook up with and tell them that you think the ENFJ would make a clingy girlfriend? Oh, and then tell the ENFJ that you hate the girl you hooked up with and plan to break all communication with her?

Nope, I don't...

 

[lalangela]

that's great, because ISTPs like this one make me throw my stuffed animals at the wall.

 

[sLiPpY]

Well, we can't all be Clark Kent.

 

[lasdf23]

do you also talk to those you hook up with and tell them that you think the ENFJ would make a clingy girlfriend? Oh, and then tell the ENFJ that you hate the girl you hooked up with and plan to break all communication with her?

I don't know about this lalangela, I think he's down right manipulative in doing those suggestive things. Not that I'm an authority in typology, but from your posts here, this guy doesn't sound similar to the ISTP guy that I had experience with..at all. He was very private/secretive about his girl stuff, never liked to draw attention to that aspect of his personal life. Maybe I mistyped him? I don't know, but this guy sounds like an attention whore (and those are the worst kind to deal with, immature AND insecure).

 

[lalangela]

apparently, I'm the one who "understands him the most at this university". lolwhat.

 

[Rainne]

Well, we can't all be Clark Kent.

Pretty sure Clark Kent was a IXFJ yo.

 

[toast]

lalangela, just a thought... I have a tendency to 'give' the kind of dialogue I think is 'gentlest'/'eastiest' on the person I'm interacting with (as in makes them comfortable), without even realizing I'm doing it. With ISTPs, it becomes more evident because I realize they aren't throwing out any signals so I'm just holding too much back to feel like I'm being 'myself.' (It takes work to push through this & say things even though I feel like they aren't exactly welcome). With other ENFJs, the same thing sort of occurs in reverse. I am laying it on 'too thick', and being too gentle, kind, generous. It makes me appear to be more concerned with that particular person than I might me. I imagine your ENFJ friend may be so clingy because you are being too accommodating about it.

As for getting over guys... Only one relationship brought me right into another. I don't think its particularly good for ENFJs to 'get over' someone while trying to be with someone else. We idealize (even when we mourn loss), so its unfair to the other person and ourselves in so many ways. I usually get over losing someone by engaging with people & keeping busy, with sporadic periods of breaking down with grief throughout, until I wake up & realize I'm fine. (and talking A LOT... I mean, as much as you can get away with... until the whole idea of the grief seems spent. Feel free to talk to me, I'd enjoy it.)

I don't even know if its possible to decide you don't really want to be with him while you're still communicating with him. I still haven't figured that out but I know how friggen magnetic ISTPs are & how they jumble all confidence in your judgments. They tempt you into being carefree like them, just sort of 'letting go' and loving them... like its that easy. For us, it takes work to do that, so it always comes back to bite you in the ass when you just dive in.

I'm getting a little clearer, (THANK GOD), partially because of talking to three ISTPs (mine, an old friend, and slippy). I have been doing this thing where whenever I start to feel that pull of emotion in my chest (or uneasy feeling), I stop as soon as I'm aware of it, think about it & explain to myself where it is coming from. Then I just sort of sit through it without acting. Its kept me feeling really peaceful for about 3 days, even through the typical conflict that happens when my ISTP is being irritable (and he has been this week). I'm hoping I can keep this up because I feel almost, saved from myself.

 

[lalangela]

what bothers me is that things that would otherwise push people apart are just bringing us closer? Despite everything, we're closer than ever.

 

[garbage]

I don't even know if its possible to decide you don't really want to be with him while you're still communicating with him.

I'm just gonna go ahead and corroborate this. I've known plenty of people who keep in communication with--or even live with--people they've broken up with, and they end up getting sucked back in. The cycle repeats ad infinitum until their circumstances no longer allow them to be together, and, in the meantime, they're miserable.

When they've got the influence of that other person lingering over them, they can't seem to make the decision that they clearly really want to make.

 

[toast]

lalangela, I too "hate" people. It's very odd. I'm warm, I'm friendly...easy going. But I frickn' hate most people, especially the one's I don't know or trust.

I suspect it's a left over thought/feeling that was beneficial for the survival of humanity at one point or another. Lots of people think/feel that way. I've noticed it more so among ISTP's I've known in daily life. Might just be inherent to the area I live in.

It's in the South, where all us southerners know that "Bless your dear, sweet heart." Is grandma speak for "Go f* ck yourself!"

We even talk about having gone somewhere and our general disgust and disdain for people in general. Or more illusively, "Yeah, I know exactly what you are saying."

Then out of the blue I find myself talking with a stranger, and quickly forget I held that sence of general disdain at all.

Sounds like my ISTP. He has all these acquaintances & seems to love meeting new people but he openly says he 'hates people' in general, pretty often. He really really dreams of being a hermit in the same way I dream of being a pillar - unrealistically, because he wants to be around people from time to time while I need them from time to time.

 

[lalangela]

how likely are ISTPs to learn from their mistakes? My ISTP and I finally had that serious discussion about his feelings, and it seems he's sincere about changing. He came to me first. How likely is that he'll follow through?

 

[countrygirl]

how likely are ISTPs to learn from their mistakes? My ISTP and I finally had that serious discussion about his feelings, and it seems he's sincere about changing. He came to me first. How likely is that he'll follow through?

That depends on his values, not his type.

 

[Giggly]

That depends on his values, not his type.

Yeah ISTP's are getting kind of a bad rap lately due to an influx of posters having a hard time with their ISTP's but lets not get too carried away with stereotyping. They're not all bad. There are plenty of people who are in happy committed relationships with their ISTP's. They are not all alike.

PS - countrygirl, I still think you're ISFJ.

 

[toast]

how likely are ISTPs to learn from their mistakes? My ISTP and I finally had that serious discussion about his feelings, and it seems he's sincere about changing. He came to me first. How likely is that he'll follow through?

I'd think of it as a slow process rather than an instant commitment to change. Watch out for how you look for 'follow through'. That he realized he wants to do something is the first step, but ISTP = slow n steady. I wouldn't expect things to be different right away or to even see observable signs very often. Truth is he may get caught up in the present & not focus on the details of his intentions. But I'd bet he hasnt forgotten them. With an Istp, commitment seems more like a process than a choice - intention + action becomes commitment (correct me if I'm wrong guys). so commitment to change means: first, figuring out how he wants to change, in a definable/applicable way, which might be hard for him & take a while. He may make efforts in the meantime, like trying to communicate more so you know he's trying to open up and get closer, but they may be lost on you if you're looking for too much too soon.

When my ISTP did this it was a slow process that I could not see improvement in day to day, but my critical outlook and downright uneasiness punctuated it with 'talks' like the one you had (where he opened up, told me what he wanted, & reminded me that he was working on it). Sometimes they seemed to renew his desire to tear down his walls & make it work. More often they made him anxious that he wasn't good enough or frustrated at my impatience. I really feel like I rushed him, but in reality I think he took as long as he would've taken if I'd been easygoing about it. And I'd have seriously lost my mind without those 'reminders.' So if you really want to make it work for both of you, try not to lose your head if he takes forever but honestly let him know if you do. Give him the chance to reassure you. (I know how hard that is but don't be scared you'll push him. He probably wont be pushed by anyone.)

 

[Poki]

Current insights into ISTP and ENFJ.

ISTP finds fault because of digging into problems. I dont like to hold the impression internally that someone is right or wrong.

ENFJ on the other hand holds what people do as right or wrong because of goal orientation, but doesnt like to find fault or blame(this I am still up in the air on the wording).

 

[Little Laura]

lalangela, I too "hate" people. It's very odd. I'm warm, I'm friendly...easy going. But I frickn' hate most people, especially the one's I don't know or trust.

I suspect it's a left over thought/feeling that was beneficial for the survival of humanity at one point or another. Lots of people think/feel that way. I've noticed it more so among ISTP's I've known in daily life. Might just be inherent to the area I live in.

It's in the South, where all us southerners know that "Bless your dear, sweet heart." Is grandma speak for "Go f* ck yourself!"

We even talk about having gone somewhere and our general disgust and disdain for people in general. Or more illusively, "Yeah, I know exactly what you are saying."

Then out of the blue I find myself talking with a stranger, and quickly forget I held that sence of general disdain at all.

OH MY WOW. This sounds exactly like my friend. We like to have "ranting fests" where we pretty much rag on everyone in the world and why we hate people. LOL.
He will go on and on and on and on about how he hates people and then suddenly end up at a party and have tons of fun for about an hour and then start calling me or texting me because he wants to go home and be alone. LOL. Oh my...
He also always seems to think everyone hates him when he first meets them...so he somewhat pushes them away and acts a bit like a dink. I don't know if that is typical ISTP behaviour...or just a defence-mechanism he has developed.

 

[toast]

Current insights into ISTP and ENFJ.

ISTP finds fault because of digging into problems. I dont like to hold the impression internally that someone is right or wrong.

ENFJ on the other hand holds what people do as right or wrong because of goal orientation, but doesnt like to find fault or blame(this I am still up in the air on the wording).

I agree with that. I see 'mistakes' and make judgments about people's motives and how people do 'right' or 'wrong' based on their external environment (the situation they are acting in), but I don't like people accusing me of judging 'them' or feeling like someone particular is 'wrong.' I can actually be in an argument with someone and they are defensive because I am being judgmental about them, when I think I am just addressing their actions. I can get stressed and dislike people based on what they do in short bursts (when Fi comes into play), but I just can't see people that way in the long term. I think its a common ground in disguise (between ISTP and ENFJ), because I don't want to hold the impression internally that someone is right or wrong either, but externally I just do... and internally it is just a blind spot. I don't know about other ENFJs though.