[ESTP] Breaking through to an ESTP

[JustHer]

*POOF*


May this thread no longer exist!

 

[Amargith]

You provide them with another Se-distraction, task, what have you, away from said person. Or, you take the Se-joy out of whatever it is he's doing that then hurts the other person.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I don't know details of what's going on inter-dynamically with persons involved - but have you tried approaching ESTP and telling them (straight up) that ESTP's actions (be specific) are causing harm to another person?

 

[Charmed Justice]

I don't know details of what's going on inter-dynamically with persons involved - but have you tried approaching ESTP and telling them (straight up) that ESTP's actions (be specific) are causing harm to another person?

This.
In my experience, showing them exactly what they're doing works well. Putting it in their face, but in a way that they aren't likely to get too defensive and put off.

 

[Halla74]

I don't know details of what's going on inter-dynamically with persons involved - but have you tried approaching ESTP and telling them (straight up) that ESTP's actions (be specific) are causing harm to another person?

This.
In my experience, showing them exactly what they're doing works well. Putting it in their face, but in a way that they aren't likely to get too defensive and put off.

Agreed. We're oblivious to things at times but are not vicious. What is going on specifically? The description is very vague, and very general. That limits the utility of potential responses...

Good luck!

 

[une_autre]

Changing a person is pretty difficult.

I can tell you that if somebody informed me that I am hurting (unintentionally!) a person that is not in my circle of friends, I wouldn't give a damn about it. I trust my reasoning and my way of acting is within the limits of morality and ethicality, hence if one can't handle it, that's too bad.

I don't go for the emotional stuff, so I would see no reason to change a behaviour that is perfectly normal and justified (assuming that's the case, but you didn't specify) just because somebody will start crying over it (that's an figure of speaking, but you get the point).

Obviously, if that person is a friend, I would react differently, but again, you didn't mention anything about the relationship between the ESTP and that somebody else.

You didn't give too many details and it's hard to say what I would do in that situation and what would be the best way to actually change something.

Nonetheless, in my opinion the best solution is a straight-forward talk. Now, as to how he might decide to change things, I don't know. It's pretty specific to every situation.

 

[JustHer]

Sorry, I should have provided more details!

Basically the case is that a slightly emotionally unhealthy ISFJ is constantly taking on and absorbing the problems of the ESTP. The ESTP is sort of taking advantage, asking the ISFJ to do things for them all the time, and as a result the ISFJ becomes overly stressed and nervous all the time.

The problem is that its a family relation and the ISFJ will ALWAYS worry about the ESTP's problems, so expecting that to change is unrealistic.

I would see no reason to change a behaviour that is perfectly normal and justified (assuming that's the case, but you didn't specify) just because somebody will start crying over it (that's an figure of speaking, but you get the point).

This is pretty much the argument here. The ESTP is focused on the fact that they should be able to express themselves how they want and also on the fact that the ISFJ doesn't have to do things for them if they dont want to. This makes perfect sense, but doesn't change the fact that the person who constantly suffers from this (and on a very deep level) is the ISFJ who cares about them.

How do I get the ESTP to think beyond their own self interests and actually seriously try to change to avoid hurting someone that loves them?

 

[Poki]

Sorry, I should have provided more details!

Basically the case is that a slightly emotionally unhealthy ISFJ is constantly taking on and absorbing the problems of the ESTP. The ESTP is sort of taking advantage, asking the ISFJ to do things for them all the time, and as a result the ISFJ becomes overly stressed and nervous all the time.

The problem is that its a family relation and the ISFJ will ALWAYS worry about the ESTP's problems, so expecting that to change is unrealistic.



This is pretty much the argument here. The ESTP is focused on the fact that they should be able to express themselves how they want and also on the fact that the ISFJ doesn't have to do things for them if they dont want to. This makes perfect sense, but doesn't change the fact that the person who constantly suffers from this (and on a very deep level) is the ISFJ who cares about them.

How do I get the ESTP to think beyond their own self interests and actually seriously try to change to avoid hurting someone that loves them?

The part that stuck out is that the ESTP is asking the ISFJ to do things to a level that causes the ISFJ to much stress. The fix is to have the ESTP let the ISFJ know the problems, but not "ask" that person to do things about them or not ask as much and try and tackle it themselves asking only when they actually need help or just not as much. Then the ISFJ is free to help when they want and when the ESTP really needs it they should feel like they can ask. Seems like the ESTP may be relying to heavily on the ISFJ.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Is the ESTP self-destructive?

Just wondering if this is a case of a lifestyle disagreement between them or something more serious like ISFJ enabling ESTP.

There are ways to still care and worry about someone but ISFJ has to find her boundaries and where to draw the line.

EDIT: Change can be guided by others but it's driven internally.

 

[FDG]

Changing a person is pretty difficult.

I can tell you that if somebody informed me that I am hurting (unintentionally!) a person that is not in my circle of friends, I wouldn't give a damn about it. I trust my reasoning and my way of acting is within the limits of morality and ethicality, hence if one can't handle it, that's too bad.

I don't go for the emotional stuff, so I would see no reason to change a behaviour that is perfectly normal and justified (assuming that's the case, but you didn't specify) just because somebody will start crying over it (that's an figure of speaking, but you get the point).

Yeah but...people can kill you if you are too mean with them especially an ISFJ.

 

[Thalassa]

Confront the ESTP. I hope you aren't a person who is afraid of confrontation. Don't back down if ESTP tries to justify selfish behavior. It's great that you're an NT, so hopefully you can stay rational in the face of asshattery.

On the other hand, someone else made a very good point when they said ISFJ should speak up for ISFJs self. After the initial confrontation, if ISFJ keeps feeding into ESTPs bullshit, then maybe it's best to talk to the ISFJ about what ISFJ is allowing to happen.

 

[Poki]

Confront the ESTP. I hope you aren't a person who is afraid of confrontation. Don't back down if ESTP tries to justify selfish behavior. It's great that you're an NT, so hopefully you can stay rational in the face of asshattery.

On the other hand, someone else made a very good point when they said ISFJ should speak up for ISFJs self. After the initial confrontation, if ISFJ keeps feeding into ESTPs bullshit, then maybe it's best to talk to the ISFJ about what ISFJ is allowing to happen.

yes, why cant you talk to ISFJ about it?

 

[JustHer]

The part that stuck out is that the ESTP is asking the ISFJ to do things to a level that causes the ISFJ to much stress. The fix is to have the ESTP let the ISFJ know the problems, but not "ask" that person to do things about them or not ask as much and try and tackle it themselves asking only when they actually need help or just not as much. Then the ISFJ is free to help when they want and when the ESTP really needs it they should feel like they can ask. Seems like the ESTP may be relying to heavily on the ISFJ.

The problem is that ISFJ cannot control the intense worrying and fear about every little problem and mishap in the ESTPs life. ISFJ volunteers to help constantly because ISFJs life revolves around ESTP's well being (ISFJ is the mom). I don't think ISFJ can just sit back and do nothing when something needs to be done by the ESTP.

Is the ESTP self-destructive?

Just wondering if this is a case of a lifestyle disagreement between them or something more serious like ISFJ enabling ESTP.

There are ways to still care and worry about someone but ISFJ has to find her boundaries and where to draw the line.

EDIT: Change can be guided by others but it's driven internally.

ISFJ is DEFINITELY enabling ESTP and it is definitely a serious self esteem problem. However I've determine that it would be well near impossible to properly fix so I've decided to try to get the ESTP to just hold back a bit on the drama and exageration, but this is difficult since ESTP is convinced that they are doing nothing wrong and refuses to change.

 

[JustHer]

Confront the ESTP. I hope you aren't a person who is afraid of confrontation. Don't back down if ESTP tries to justify selfish behavior. It's great that you're an NT, so hopefully you can stay rational in the face of asshattery.

On the other hand, someone else made a very good point when they said ISFJ should speak up for ISFJs self. After the initial confrontation, if ISFJ keeps feeding into ESTPs bullshit, then maybe it's best to talk to the ISFJ about what ISFJ is allowing to happen.

I am not afraid of confronting the ESTP, the problem is that the ESTP is very self absorbed and not really willing to listen to anything. They are convinced that they are not at fault.

Talking to the ISFJ is definitely the most logical thing to do, but getting the ISFJ to change their behaviour would require a lifetime of therapy to counteract the self esteem issues and feelings of worthlessness from abuse.

 

[Poki]

The problem is that ISFJ cannot control the intense worrying and fear about every little problem and mishap in the ESTPs life. ISFJ volunteers to help constantly because ISFJs life revolves around ESTP's well being (ISFJ is the mom). I don't think ISFJ can just sit back and do nothing when something needs to be done by the ESTP.




ISFJ is DEFINITELY enabling ESTP and it is definitely a serious self esteem problem. However I've determine that it would be well near impossible to properly fix so I've decided to try to get the ESTP to just hold back a bit on the drama and exageration, but this is difficult since ESTP is convinced that they are doing nothing wrong and refuses to change.

Because ESTP isnt wrong. This isnt a matter of right or wrong. Try to avoid that stance as it will just push someone to become defensive which is probably what you are facing.

 

[Thalassa]

I am not afraid of confronting the ESTP, the problem is that the ESTP is very self absorbed and not really willing to listen to anything. They are convinced that they are not at fault.

Talking to the ISFJ is definitely the most logical thing to do, but getting the ISFJ to change their behaviour would require a lifetime of therapy to counteract the self esteem issues and feelings of worthlessness from abuse.

The ISFJ, the mother, the alleged victim, is creating the situation. The ISFJ must be stopped, even though the ESTP is the obvious problem. You must talk with the ISFJ. The ISFJ is enabling ESTP, and not only hurting herself, but in fact building a machine which will likely in future hurt others.

Have you ever read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein? The Monster is the one everyone hates, but in the end it's obvious that the fault lies upon his creator, Dr. Frankenstein.

This may not seem like a nice answer, but I've seen this situation before.

 

[JustHer]

The ISFJ, the mother, the alleged victim, is creating the situation. The ISFJ must be stopped, even though the ESTP is the obvious problem. You must talk with the ISFJ. The ISFJ is enabling ESTP, and not only hurting herself, but in fact building a machine which will likely in future hurt others.

Have you ever read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein? The Monster is the one everyone hates, but in the end it's obvious that the fault lies upon his creator, Dr. Frankenstein.

This may not seem like a nice answer, but I've seen this situation before.

Obviously I understand this entirely, but this does not help the situation. I am looking for a solution here, not someone to blame. Yes it makes sense that the ESTP should be able to be themselves without having to worry about how their actions will affect everyone else, but they DO. I am trying to HELP ISFJ work through their issues and I NEED ESTP to work with me on this.

 

[JustHer]

Because ESTP isnt wrong. This isnt a matter of right or wrong. Try to avoid that stance as it will just push someone to become defensive which is probably what you are facing.

So how do I go about making the ESTP realize it has nothing to do with right and wrong?

 

[Thalassa]

Obviously I understand this entirely, but this does not help the situation. I am looking for a solution here, not someone to blame. Yes it makes sense that the ESTP should be able to be themselves without having to worry about how their actions will affect everyone else, but they DO. I am trying to HELP ISFJ work through their issues and I NEED ESTP to work with me on this.

Oh no, I agree that that the ESTP should have to learn to worry about their actions affecting everyone else - that tertiary Fe is there to kick in, no time like the present.

I stick by my original suggestion of confronting the ESTP and not backing down and making him aware of this for sure, but also talking to the ISFJ because if she is his mother, as long as she enables him, he will continue to act like a creep.

There is no solution without making her stop.

 

[Thalassa]

Because ESTP isnt wrong. This isnt a matter of right or wrong. Try to avoid that stance as it will just push someone to become defensive which is probably what you are facing.

I don't buy into this there's no such thing as right and wrong bs. What ESTP is doing is obviously wrong. The first rule of society is that my rights end where yours begin. I have a right to be who I want to be, say what I want, do as I please, until I start destroying other people around me. Then, yes, the concept of wrong begins to have relevance.