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[MBTI General] xSTPs and manipulation

Poki

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ok, when I talk about manipulation I am talking more about indirect interaction, not direct interaction. Kinda like being vague instead of a direct route.

edit: My goal is also more to manipulate a feeling, not so much an action. With something like fear the manipulation is to remove it, with love it is to figure out what makes someone feel loved. In this regard its not about what I want. This is where manipulation scares people and why I dont like the word manipulation tied to it.

In response to what wilfrey said, yes I have tried to convince my dad to do something because that was keeping my mom from going with me, my wife, and my son to chuck e cheese. So I used my son as bait to try to convince my dad that my son really wanted him to go.
 

LEGERdeMAIN

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If you manipulate someone actions you are not allowing them free choice.

Free will is something that you cannot take from someone.

You confuse "presenting ALL the details" with "manipulation". You then back it up with the following statements that they dont always know what they want and that you are not necessarily trying to make them happy.

I am not confused. You made some off-the-wall statement about happiness, so I responded in kind.

Explain or give examples.

you too.

One example of the action you speak of would be yell at them so they think you dont like them to make them go away. We are thinking of 2 different forms of manipulation. Just because you arent aware of a different form does not mean it doesnt exist.

I never made any assumption that manipulation cannot take more than one form. I don't think that example is anything close to what I've stated in any post in this thread. I must assume that you didn't read it thoroughly.


The interaction part is where you lose track of things because you assume that first reaction was correct and every consecutive reaction ;) Understand everything you say and everything you do has a cause and effect. Everything IS partially your fault the second you step your foot in the door.

I like how you assume that I assume that a reaction can be "correct". I also like how you assume that I assume that the first reaction is "correct". I also like the way you assume that my primary reason for manipulation is to destroy the free will and happiness of those around me.

I understand everything i say and do has a cause and effect, do you understand that everything you type and post has the same?:blush:
 

ChocolateMoose123

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The argument is that ESTPs are the ones who are able to manipulate people and enjoy poking at them and that ISTPs are not interested in people at all and are more interested in picking things apart.

I disagree. I think you ISTPs are just as bad as we are. You just get away with it more often because you're sneaky little bastards.

I think ESTP's are especially good at this. I would say that ESTP's possibly do this as they go along? It's seems instinctual for them.

My friends and co-workers - even my boss - have been pretty impressed that my "reads" on people are so accurate, so we must be decent at it. ;) The main difference is I think we need a bit more detachment. Even if it's a couple of minutes to watch or listen to someone. That's all it takes.

Also, we don't do nearly as much as the ESTP does with the same info because it takes more energy from us to facilitate people. I get exhausted when it comes to just thinking about interacting with others to get what I want. I'd rather just find a way to get it myself.
 

Heinel

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It does make me wonder though, does every type do this? It looks like we pretty much agreed that Se and Ti works. I've heard people saying ENFJs (so Fe and Ni) also work. If that's the case I think INFPs who are expedient in Fe can do it too.

But what about the other types?
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Yes ISTPs are quite capable of doing so. But it is not likely that they would do it for the amusement. They (ISTPs) don't like to waste energy. But believe me when I say this ISTPs can surely get things done.

But less likely to do it for the amusement.

Sorry for posting twice in a row here but I initially posted to this thread just reading the OP. I then went back and read the thread....:laugh: Pretty entertaining.

Anyway. Great word. I think "amusement" sums up an ESTP's underlying motive for interacting with people. I hate to use the word "manipulation" because of its negative connotation - especially with connection to ESTP's and this forum. So I reject your word and substitute my own! :devil:


The correct way to do this as an ISTP is to test them and see how they respond. The goal is to see how they respond not what you got them to do.
The second you take the latter thought it turns from observation to "manipulation". Once you begin to manipulate you steer the person away from what they want into what you want. Unless your wants are the same, you are setting them up to be unhappy.

Like those first two sentences. Can I add that I'm more inclined to manipulate myself to get what I want rather than try to change the other person's mind or make or ask them to do anything.

For instance, I was wanting to dirt bike ride as it had been a while. I knew of a guy that had a lot of connections in that area. I approached him and initiated conversation knowing that if I was friendly and if the conversation took itself there (which it would) he'd probably more than likely ask me to go riding. So I befriended him. He asked me and I went and made other good connections for riding.

Would I have approached him if he couldn't help me out in that vein? Probably not. But I knew that he would offer his help. Is this manipulation?

I'd like to think that I manipulated myself by being friendlier/accessible than I normally am.

Exceptions to be made in the cases where what they want isn't actually what will make them happy. Which is a tricky exception, because I'm prone to letting people do what they want. And who am I to say what will make them happy?

In situations like this, I don't really operate on feel. I use arbitrary rules to make judgements, such as "try to get him to do this, if it doesn't work by the third time, than drop it."

Everything about this post is :happy0065: Took the words right out of my mouth.
 

Poki

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Yeah, I watch people very closely and deduce their motivations. Once you know what motivates a person you can manipulate the balls out of them. I especially like to use it to subtly steer conversations in a certain direction, usually in an attempt to influence their actions. It's kind of like that Jedi knight thing.

I understand everything i say and do has a cause and effect, do you understand that everything you type and post has the same?:blush:

My response is an effect, above is the cause;)

My examples I used are real life examples of when this was used to steer and "try" to manipulate the balls out of someones actions.

Let me give you an example of my manipulation to get what I want. Its called doing things for others. You would be suprised at how much you can "manipulate" others by making them want to do it. The way I test how much manipulation or control I have is to ask them to do something that I want, but it will never be anything they dont like doing, just something they dont normally do. I also can tell by what they do that they dont normally do without my asking.

You truly have someone by the "balls" when they do it without asking, now figure out how to get them to want to. I promise you its much harder then some Jedi Knight force, takes alot more effort. Thats why I dont like the term "manipulation", but it truly is "manipulation".
 

sLiPpY

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Why is this starting to read like an NT thread?

*takes aspirin*
 

Poki

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Why is this starting to read like an NT thread?

*takes aspirin*

lol, are we argueing that much over theory, damn my Ni is showing, better tuck it back in:cheese: no one look.
 

countrygirl

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Sorry for posting twice in a row here but I initially posted to this thread just reading the OP. I then went back and read the thread....:laugh: Pretty entertaining.

Anyway. Great word. I think "amusement" sums up an ESTP's underlying motive for interacting with people. I hate to use the word "manipulation" because of its negative connotation - especially with connection to ESTP's and this forum. So I reject your word and substitute my own! :devil:



Like those first two sentences. Can I add that I'm more inclined to manipulate myself to get what I want rather than try to change the other person's mind or make or ask them to do anything.

For instance, I was wanting to dirt bike ride as it had been a while. I knew of a guy that had a lot of connections in that area. I approached him and initiated conversation knowing that if I was friendly and if the conversation took itself there (which it would) he'd probably more than likely ask me to go riding. So I befriended him. He asked me and I went and made other good connections for riding.

Would I have approached him if he couldn't help me out in that vein? Probably not. But I knew that he would offer his help. Is this manipulation?

I'd like to think that I manipulated myself by being friendlier/accessible than I normally am.



Everything about this post is :happy0065: Took the words right out of my mouth.

LOL. That's called using people. LOL Perhaps 'networking' would be a better word. However, I think ISTPs are more incline to make friends who have the same interest and activity. I've noticed that my husband's friends revolved around 4 wheeling. Since he doesn't 4 wheel anymore (too expensive and no place to go) his friends aren't around.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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:laugh:

Yeah. I'd just say any friendship was a side benefit and not my main priority. Come to think of it, whenever I initiate contact with someone it's because of a common interest.
 

countrygirl

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:laugh:

Yeah. I'd just say any friendship was a side benefit and not my main priority. Come to think of it, whenever I initiate contact with someone it's because of a common interest.

You know (to keep it on topic) you are a beautiful women, so how hard is it to 'manipulate' men anyways?
 

Poki

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:laugh:

Yeah. I'd just say any friendship was a side benefit and not my main priority. Come to think of it, whenever I initiate contact with someone it's because of a common interest.

:nice: Stick me around a table of people I dont know and I am bored. Stick me with someone who has a common interest and I will talk, put me in a place where the common interest is put into practice like actually 4 wheeling and I will have some fun.

I need to be moving and thinking and pushing myself. The definition of stunt man.

Me and my wifes brother spent alot of time together while we were both into the same thing, as our interests changed so did the time we hang out.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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You know (to keep it on topic) you are a beautiful women, so how hard is it to 'manipulate' men anyways?

Thanks :blush:

I don't think you have to be especially attractive to manipulate anyone. How many marks are there in the world? Lots. There's no real challenge in using or manipulating someone. There's always someone who will fall for anything.

I'm thinking of gold diggers and trophy wives. I despise that. Just as I despise the men who fall for it but that's another topic. It's like the women are living half a life. Giving up their independence for money. Might as well get a lobotomy and a bottle of lube and settle in to the rest of your life.

Maybe looks will get your foot in the door (of that I'm aware) but I'm not especially skilled at keeping someone eating out of my hand. Mainly because I don't want to be bothered by the responsibility of another person's expectations nor do I desire their demands on my time.

My last post is probably the most "manipulation" I do. Yet, I never asked that person to do me any favors. I simply read him correctly and knew he'd share his hobby with me once he learned that I shared it too. *shrug*

Therein, lies the crux of manipulation. Good or bad. A person has to invest TIME and ENERGY into others. To get something from someone you have to make them feel good. You have to make them feel so special by your presence that they will give you things they wouldn't normally give. I'll leave this to the ESTP's, ENFP's and ENFJ's. They do this very well naturally.
 

Kingfisher

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:nice: Stick me around a table of people I dont know and I am bored. Stick me with someone who has a common interest and I will talk, put me in a place where the common interest is put into practice like actually 4 wheeling and I will have some fun.

so you find it much easier to connect when you are actively sharing a common interest? i guess i do too, usually.

but then, i like to just talk if we have similar ways of expressing ourselves, a conversational groove we can fall into. if that is the case, then Bam! it is like a runaway freight train, even if we are doing something very boring. i think that is an enneagram sx type thing.
 

Randomnity

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I would say I'm exceptionally bad at manipulating people, actually (though I'm not sure I've consiously tried, I have a fuzzy idea of what it means). Can't speak for other stps though, and I believe Estps, like entps, are very talented at this. Fe would probably be useful for this, and mine is not the greatest.
 

countrygirl

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Thanks :blush:

I don't think you have to be especially attractive to manipulate anyone. How many marks are there in the world? Lots. There's no real challenge in using or manipulating someone. There's always someone who will fall for anything.

I'm thinking of gold diggers and trophy wives. I despise that. Just as I despise the men who fall for it but that's another topic. It's like the women are living half a life. Giving up their independence for money. Might as well get a lobotomy and a bottle of lube and settle in to the rest of your life.

Maybe looks will get your foot in the door (of that I'm aware) but I'm not especially skilled at keeping someone eating out of my hand. Mainly because I don't want to be bothered by the responsibility of another person's expectations nor do I desire their demands on my time.

My last post is probably the most "manipulation" I do. Yet, I never asked that person to do me any favors. I simply read him correctly and knew he'd share his hobby with me once he learned that I shared it too. *shrug*

Therein, lies the crux of manipulation. Good or bad. A person has to invest TIME and ENERGY into others. To get something from someone you have to make them feel good. You have to make them feel so special by your presence that they will give you things they wouldn't normally give. I'll leave this to the ESTP's, ENFP's and ENFJ's. They do this very well naturally.

Perhaps an SP motto would read "independance and freedom". :) And I understand not being able to bother with keeping people eating out of your hand. Too much work. I see manipulation negatively, as a deep insecurity, mostly as people who are afraid if they ask directly that they will not get their needs met.
 

Kingfisher

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but I'm not especially skilled at keeping someone eating out of my hand. Mainly because I don't want to be bothered by the responsibility of another person's expectations nor do I desire their demands on my time.

yeah, i am the same way.

but it seems like a lot of the people who are the most successful with that are people who don't try, have you noticed that? very charming people who don't try, whose natural charisma keeps others coming back for more.
 

Poki

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yeah, i am the same way.

but it seems like a lot of the people who are the most successful with that are people who don't try, have you noticed that? very charming people who don't try, whose natural charisma keeps others coming back for more.

I would say I am not a people person at all, yet people like my company for down time, personal time, etc. Just to hang out with, talk to, help them, etc. I can and will do anything by myself, yet people I know like to tag along with me and like my company. I notice this especially with SFP, NFP, and STP types, not so much NTPs.
 

LEGERdeMAIN

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My response is an effect, above is the cause;)

My examples I used are real life examples of when this was used to steer and "try" to manipulate the balls out of someones actions.

Let me give you an example of my manipulation to get what I want. Its called doing things for others. You would be suprised at how much you can "manipulate" others by making them want to do it. The way I test how much manipulation or control I have is to ask them to do something that I want, but it will never be anything they dont like doing, just something they dont normally do. I also can tell by what they do that they dont normally do without my asking.

You truly have someone by the "balls" when they do it without asking, now figure out how to get them to want to. I promise you its much harder then some Jedi Knight force, takes alot more effort. Thats why I dont like the term "manipulation", but it truly is "manipulation".

There are many ways to manipulate someone. I enjoy many manipulation techniques. I don't limit myself to only manipulating other's with what you may call "good" manipulation. Whether something is good or bad is too subjective to worry about. In the "end", good and bad cease to exist.
 
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