[MBTI General] xSTPs and manipulation

[sculpting]

Sometimes I don't get you dude. You're like an F on estrogen.

No, Poki is an ISTP who uses Fe in an utterly beautiful way. Well maybe not that butt sucking part....

At 55 my ISTP mom-in-law uses so much Fe, I was avoiding her. She made me want to unleash Te hellfire upon her...

At 33 my ISTP ex shows massive Fe towards his kids and me or the few others he cares about. For him it is simple but strong when it happens.

Fi scares the shit out of him though. He is very wary of it.

haha, little ISTPs, one day you will also be sweet

 

[Poki]

Sometimes I don't get you dude. You're like an F on estrogen.

lol, I protect Fi. Its one thing to be F another to protect F. Welcome to Fe and Se gone wild. Its my weak function which means I can use it, but sometimes it just gets out of control and turns to the dark side

In this world we have "who people are" and "who people want to be". Se is about what is real, what is concrete, who someone is. Ne is about who someone wants to be or who someone is trying to be, etc.

Its one thing to know who someone wants to be and manipulate them based on what they want, its another thing completely to be able to see who someone is. If you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen

Its one thing to zing someone another to take a swing at who they are, know the difference please.

edit: sorry I will try to control myself.

 

[proteanmix]

Maybe these ESTPs are weird-but they all keep lying. Three are "close friends" yet lie about each other, and to each other, and to me, all the time. They admit freely they lie and then seem confused when I catch them lying to me. They assume others "will just figure it out" and react accordingly to the lie that everyone knows is a lie. They also talk trash about each other and harshly criticize each other to me in one on one convos, yet claim to be "close".

I distanced myself from them as I cant understand them. I care for them, but I cant figure out what to believe anymore-meaning I follow the default of believe nothing they say.

HP, I'm glad you say this.

This is pretty much off topic but I'm convinced there are a lot of ExTPs (and TPs in general) out that due to tertiary Fe are being mistyped as manipulative ExFJs and ExFJs are taking the fall.

I can tell you one thing: ExFJs are more likely to dissolve into histrionics and theatrics than the nonchalant, play-or-be-played attitude that you've described. I've seen one ESTP female cry a river of tears and then turn around and wink.

I've always thought SPs were the group most attuned to things like this anyways, so...

 

[Poki]

HP, I'm glad you say this.

This is pretty much off topic but I'm convinced there are a lot of ExTPs (and TPs in general) out that due to tertiary Fe are being mistyped as manipulative ExFJs and ExFJs are taking the fall.

I can tell you one thing: ExFJs are more likely to dissolve into histrionics and theatrics than the nonchalant, play-or-be-played attitude that you've described. I've seen one ESTP female cry a river of tears and then turn around and wink.

I've always thought SPs were the group most attuned to things like this anyways, so...

I have always thought that an unhealthy P comes across as J, but to take it one step farther I think an unhealthy TP can easily come across as mean FJ. So yes I will agree with what you say. Its our inferior shadow.

I also wonder if with an ENFJ beside an ISTP I can work on my inferior functions without having to worrying about my other 4 functions and vice versa.

 

[sLiPpY]

No, Poki is an ISTP who uses Fe in an utterly beautiful way. Well maybe not that butt sucking part....

At 55 my ISTP mom-in-law uses so much Fe, I was avoiding her. She made me want to unleash Te hellfire upon her...

At 33 my ISTP ex shows massive Fe towards his kids and me or the few others he cares about. For him it is simple but strong when it happens.

Fi scares the shit out of him though. He is very wary of it.

haha, little ISTPs, one day you will also be sweet

I suppose Fe could look a lot like psychological projection?

 

[Poki]

I suppose Fe could look a lot like psychological projection?

Which part is projection? Im curious what you see about me within what I posted.

 

[sLiPpY]

Which part is projection? Im curious what you see about me within what I posted.

Honestly, nada...as in not a damn thing.

 

[Poki]

Sometimes I don't get you dude. You're like an F on estrogen.

Nines can have the strength of Eights, the sense of fun and adventure of Sevens, the dutifulness of Sixes, the intellectualism of Fives, the creativity of Fours, the attractiveness of Threes, the generosity of Twos, and the idealism of Ones. However, what they generally do not have is a sense of really inhabiting themselves—a strong sense of their own identity.

I dont think you will ever GET me, but this is a start

 

[Sinmara]

Oh, oh, oh...I just want to hug and snuggle this thread. So many xSTPs in one place! Woot!

 

[Amargith]

I know, it's like christmas...

 

[Willfrey]

It's easy to manipulate people you know well. My best friend doesn't always want to go out and do things, but he heeds the beck and call of his girlfriend. So basically all I have to do is convince her to do something, then it becomes two vs. one and very easy to to get him to cave in. Do it all the time.

On the flipside, it may just be my ego talking but I don't think I'm very easy at all to manipulate. I like to think my bullshit detector is finely tuned and it isn't hard for me to put the brakes on anything that is getting pitched to me. I've been told multiple times that I'm hard to figure out, I just love to keep people guessing

 

[onemoretime]

You are all a bunch of frauds, and everyone else in the world has you figured out. They're just biding their time until they can leverage that fact to their greatest advantage and screw you like a Tijuana whore at a frat party. However, if you send me $500, I can tell you how to modify your approach to throw those people off and reestablish the dominance in your relationships. Get back to being one step ahead of the game. It's the most intelligent money you'll ever spend in your life.

So, pretty good?

 

[sLiPpY]

You are all a bunch of frauds, and everyone else in the world has you figured out. They're just biding their time until they can leverage that fact to their greatest advantage and screw you like a Tijuana whore at a frat party. However, if you send me $500, I can tell you how to modify your approach to throw those people off and reestablish the dominance in your relationships. Get back to being one step ahead of the game. It's the most intelligent money you'll ever spend in your life.

So, pretty good?

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

You have alot to learn about analyzing people if this is how you use it. For one, the second you "manipulate" or influence their actions you just took control, you lost your observation, your reading of the person. What you are now reading is your influence over the person.

If you manipulate or influence someone's actions(except with physical force or the threat of violence), you have not gained control of that person. I can continue to read and observe the individual as I did before I influenced him/her. I never gave any specific examples of me actually manipulating others.

The correct way to do this as an ISTP is to test them and see how they respond. The goal is to see how they respond not what you got them to do. The second you take the latter thought it turns from observation to "manipulation". Once you begin to manipulate you steer the person away from what they want into what you want. Unless your wants are the same, you are setting them up to be unhappy.

This doesn't make sense on many levels. This thread is about manipulation, not observation. Observation and the subsequent computation of action/reaction/interacton data are the necessary prerequisites to manipulation.

Many people don't know what they want and they almost certainly don't know how to acquire what they want. If I manipulate another person, I'm not necessarily trying to facilitate their happiness. I don't mean that I manipulate others for exclusively selfish ends. I manipulate for many reasons.

The action you speak of would be like the Jedi anakin. Someone who is struggling internally to be happy and then uses others to try and make himself happy.

Absolute happiness is not a logical goal for one's life, imo.

 

[Sinmara]

This doesn't make sense on many levels. This thread is about manipulation, not observation. Observation and the subsequent computation of action/reaction/interacton data are the necessary prerequisites to manipulation.

This thread is about manipulation through observation. That's how we xSTPs do it.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

This thread is about manipulation through observation. That's how we xSTPs do it.

Manipulation is impotent without observation, unless you're an Xsychic. moot.

 

[A window to the soul]

If you manipulate or influence someone's actions(except with physical force or the threat of violence), you have not gained control of that person. I can continue to read and observe the individual as I did before I influenced him/her. I never gave any specific examples of me actually manipulating others.

This doesn't make sense on many levels. This thread is about manipulation, not observation. Observation and the subsequent computation of action/reaction/interacton data are the necessary prerequisites to manipulation.

Many people don't know what they want and they almost certainly don't know how to acquire what they want. If I manipulate another person, I'm not necessarily trying to facilitate their happiness. I don't mean that I manipulate others for exclusively selfish ends. I manipulate for many reasons.

Absolute happiness is not a logical goal for one's life, imo.

The voice of reason has spoken.

 

[Heinel]

You are all a bunch of frauds, and everyone else in the world has you figured out. They're just biding their time until they can leverage that fact to their greatest advantage and screw you like a Tijuana whore at a frat party. However, if you send me $500, I can tell you how to modify your approach to throw those people off and reestablish the dominance in your relationships. Get back to being one step ahead of the game. It's the most intelligent money you'll ever spend in your life.

So, pretty good?

Oh I bet your PM box is swarmed with offers now. Though I think it'd be much more fun if you make this into an auction - highest bidder gets the lesson

 

[StephMC]

ISTP on the other hand, will only do it when it fits our Ti schedule. Also, I think we're more likely to use this skill defensively, to not be manipulated.

I sometimes just need to know the option is there. I won't carry it out if it doesn't fit my goals. I do not do it "just because."

Yes.

My mommy always praised me for "never missing a thing" and "always the quiet one watching that you have to look out for." I always thought it was just my mommy that believed this, but turns out psychologists agree and thus it must be a fact. Hooraaahh!

...All joking aside, I'm usually too lazy to manipulate, but I am constantly observing. On top of that, I feel like if I share some of my observations or act on them to manipulate, I'm exposing the sneaky side I prefer to keep quiet. If it's exposed, it loses its purpose. I only manipulate as long as it's quiet, harmless, and either in attempt to escape, defend, or keep methods of escape open. So yes, I'm a sneaky little bastard. At times. Or rather, I prefer "super duper escape artist extraordinaire."

 

[Poki]

If you manipulate or influence someone's actions(except with physical force or the threat of violence), you have not gained control of that person. I can continue to read and observe the individual as I did before I influenced him/her. I never gave any specific examples of me actually manipulating others.


This doesn't make sense on many levels. This thread is about manipulation, not observation. Observation and the subsequent computation of action/reaction/interacton data are the necessary prerequisites to manipulation.

Many people don't know what they want and they almost certainly don't know how to acquire what they want. If I manipulate another person, I'm not necessarily trying to facilitate their happiness. I don't mean that I manipulate others for exclusively selfish ends. I manipulate for many reasons.

Absolute happiness is not a logical goal for one's life, imo.

Many people in this world dont understand cause and effect of what happens when they go after what they want. They are like a horse with blinders. Its called focus and drive.

If you manipulate someone actions you are not allowing them free choice. You confuse "presenting ALL the details" with "manipulation". You then back it up with the following statements that they dont always know what they want and that you are not necessarily trying to make them happy. Explain or give examples.

One example of the action you speak of would be yell at them so they think you dont like them to make them go away. We are thinking of 2 different forms of manipulation. Just because you arent aware of a different form does not mean it doesnt exist.

The interaction part is where you lose track of things because you assume that first reaction was correct and every consecutive reaction Understand everything you say and everything you do has a cause and effect. Everything IS partially your fault the second you step your foot in the door.