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[MBTI General] xSTPs and manipulation

Poki

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ok, to give one example of an ISTP "manipulation" is to do or say something that will cause feelings or thoughts in the other person. In order to do this we must know exactly how the person feels and or thinks. We are always learning them as they grow.

It really stresses me to do this in a hurtful way. I know what will cut the deepest.

If someone changes to fast it really screws me up.
 

Bamboo

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Re-reading the OP, the question(s) (implicit) seem to be:

- Do ISTPs take just things apart for analysis, or people too?

Well that's an easy question. People are one sub-type of the larger category things. So, yes. The answer is yes.

moving along...

- Are ISTP's sneaky little bastards?

Another easy question. Maybe.

- Do ISTP's get away with it because they are sneaky little bastards?

Based on above response, than maybe. If answer to above is yes, than answer to this question is maybe. If answer to above is no, than answer to this question is maybe.


Anything else to be clarified?
 

troy

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I, for one, am terrible at reading people, in general. This is because, I'd actually have to pay attention to them, which consumes quite a lot of energy. If I know I'm going to have to interact with someone new, I'll attempt to speed read them to determine their personality type. This way I know how to communicate (intuit or sensing), but that's about as far as I'll go. Over the years, I've found that SFP's are the best at observing and reading people. For me, I'd rather observe something like a 1964 Thunderbolt Fairlane, or a 1947 Knucklehead - that's much more interesting.

As for manipulating people; I tend to just lead by example, rather than actually steer people in a particular direction. I will occasionally force my way of doing something on those around me, if I see fit. Any other form of manipulation takes too much energy, though.

Regarding poking fun at people; I generally limit this to SP's and STJ's. The other types tend to offend easily, or take me wrong.

As for analytical thought; intuits are great a analyzing the big picture, while us sensors are best at analyzing the details. It just depends on what you need. As a person ages, however, they learn how to do both. My intuition started surfacing when I was in my 30's, and it was an eye-opening experience. For the first time, I was able to see more of the big picture and to better see into future. It's pretty cool, so don't knock it until you've tried it.

Troy
 

LEGERdeMAIN

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If you separate living things and nonliving things, as is usually done in most disciplines(religious, scientific or other) and then you further separate living things into flora and fauna(as is done in most disciplines concerned with living things) and then you further separate fauna into primate and non-primate and then separate primates by species and then...and.......and...and then......

Keep in mind that there are other suitable synonyms for every word I have typed in this post, including separate.
 

Heinel

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If you separate living things and nonliving things, as is usually done in most disciplines(religious, scientific or other) and then you further separate living things into flora and fauna(as is done in most disciplines concerned with living things) and then you further separate fauna into primate and non-primate and then separate primates by species and then...and.......and...and then......

Keep in mind that there are other suitable synonyms for every word I have typed in this post, including separate.

but what are you trying to get at? :huh:

that it is over-segmentation and unhealthy?
 

jixmixfix

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I think if an F has the ability to analyze non living and materialistic things, then a T has the ability to analyze and read living things and relationships.
 

LEGERdeMAIN

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I was just noticing how bamboo was recombining things and people when, in the original quote in the op, thing was not clearly being used as a category for both non-human things and humans. My unintentional point was: everything is a thing and the only way we can communicate about a certain thing is if we divide things in to useful categories.
 

LEGERdeMAIN

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I think if an F has the ability to analyze non living and materialistic things, then a T has the ability to analyze and read living things and relationships.


Unless you're 100% F or 100% T(in which case you're probably in an insane asylum or dead) you have the ability to do both. This is the major con to worshiping under the MBTI religion: "only T's can do this, only F's can do that.", "I'm right, you're wrong", "meow - bark". Comprehension is key.
 

sLiPpY

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oh, good topic!

Yes, I can be a sneaky little bastard. People in a social or organizational setting are just another system, my mind automatically picks apart and pieces together how it works. There's no consious effort involved at all.

I don't like using that ability, in that I don't desire to manipulate a situation unless someone f*'s with me or pisses me off. Manipulation and control is not only boring, it's a strong aversion.

But if someone is stupid enough to f* with me...Most of the time, they never even see the big ole' bus coming. Until there's tread marks on their face. My closest ISTP friend is exactly the same way...
 

stellar renegade

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Hm, the ISTP I knew was pretty good at steering conversation, but I was definitely better. Let's face it, you ISTPs are way better at mechanical steering than we ESTPs, but we are still the cream of the crop when it comes to social maneuvering. People don't even suspect it with us. You guys still get sweaty palms in crowds sometimes. :rofl1:
 
R

Riva

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The argument is that ESTPs are the ones who are able to manipulate people and enjoy poking at them and that ISTPs are not interested in people at all and are more interested in picking things apart.

I disagree. I think you ISTPs are just as bad as we are. You just get away with it more often because you're sneaky little bastards.

PS. There also seems to be this vast misconception that sensors are not capable of analytical thought. Tsk, tsk, you silly intuitives. We are. Our idea of analytical thought is just different from your idea of analytical thought.

Yes ISTPs are quite capable of doing so. But it is not likely that they would do it for the amusement. They (ISTPs) don't like to waste energy. But believe me when I say this ISTPs can surely get things done.

But less likely to do it for the amusement.
 
R

Riva

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Quite a few intuitives I've talked to claimed that an analytical thought process is strictly an intuitive thing and that sensors don't really do it. I've also been told that sensors can't be manipulative because we don't have the right kind of mind to process information and figure people out, again claiming it's an intuitive thing. Whenever I bring it up a little disagreement chimes up from the intuitives in the room.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Sigh.

Is a Ti thing, not a Ni thing. Ni fills the gaps.

And ISTPs have Ti as their dominant function.
 

Poki

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This thread is def appreciated. I was thinking about this on Thanksgiving when I was accused of manipulating family members. I was trying to figure out a way to explain that manipulation isn't necessarily a bad thing. For instance, every parent manipulates their children so they won't:

- get kidnapped, raped and killed(forcing your kids to watch a grainy vhs of "Adam" over and over again.)

- won't get out of bed unnecessarily in the middle of the night(monster under the bed)

Those are just a couple of examples related to my personal experience as a kid, but you get the idea.

Yeah, I watch people very closely and deduce their motivations. Once you know what motivates a person you can manipulate the balls out of them. I especially like to use it to subtly steer conversations in a certain direction, usually in an attempt to influence their actions. It's kind of like that Jedi knight thing.

You have alot to learn about analyzing people if this is how you use it. For one, the second you "manipulate" or influence their actions you just took control, you lost your observation, your reading of the person. What you are now reading is your influence over the person.

The correct way to do this as an ISTP is to test them and see how they respond. The goal is to see how they respond not what you got them to do. The second you take the latter thought it turns from observation to "manipulation". Once you begin to manipulate you steer the person away from what they want into what you want. Unless your wants are the same, you are setting them up to be unhappy.

The action you speak of would be like the Jedi anakin. Someone who is struggling internally to be happy and then uses others to try and make himself happy.

I have witnessed this within someone before, while he was really good at manipulating people and getting them to do what he wanted, what he lacked was the ability to understand them. He became so focused on him being happy and trying to "manipulate" people that he constantly got screwed over.

Its sad, but he basically kept surrounding himself with people like him, and he lost the ones who were not because of it.

A true ISTP hase Se feeding Ti. We cannot close our eyes, we cannot keep ourselves from putting 2 and 2 together. This is not something we choose to do. This is such engrained in who we are that we must redirect our eyes as we cannot close them.
 

sLiPpY

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Hm, the ISTP I knew was pretty good at steering conversation, but I was definitely better. Let's face it, you ISTPs are way better at mechanical steering than we ESTPs, but we are still the cream of the crop when it comes to social maneuvering. People don't even suspect it with us. You guys still get sweaty palms in crowds sometimes. :rofl1:

I would agree that ESTP's are superior butt suckers. :yes:
 

stellar renegade

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Butt sucking = grovelling. No, it's much different than that. It's more like flattery, which is another term signifying an action that can be either good or bad.
 

Poki

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Butt sucking = grovelling. No, it's much different than that. It's more like flattery, which is another term signifying an action that can be either good or bad.

lol, wasnt it an iSTP who recently posted his details trying to get some "sloppy seconds":yim_rolling_on_the_ Talk about groveling.

sLiPpY - please do not talk about butt sucking as some people are surrounded by women and others surrounded by men. Look around you and see who surrounds you. I can see why you are afraid of groveling. If I was surrounded by men who I could joke with, laugh with, etc. I would be afraid to grovel:yim_rolling_on_the_ Dude, wake up smell the....um nevermind dont breathe until you open your yes, women smell much better then men :yim_rolling_on_the_
 

sLiPpY

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Butt sucking = grovelling. No, it's much different than that. It's more like flattery, which is another term signifying an action that can be either good or bad.

Nope grovelling is grovelling, flattery is butt sucking.

Want that promotion? Go suck some butt!
 

sLiPpY

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lol, wasnt it an iSTP who recently posted his details trying to get some "sloppy seconds":yim_rolling_on_the_ Talk about groveling.

sLiPpY - please do not talk about butt sucking as some people are surrounded by women and others surrounded by men. Look around you and see who surrounds you. I can see why you are afraid of groveling. If I was surrounded by men who I could joke with, laugh with, etc. I would be afraid to grovel:yim_rolling_on_the_ Dude, wake up smell the....um nevermind dont breathe until you open your yes, women smell much better then men :yim_rolling_on_the_

Sometimes I don't get you dude. You're like an F on estrogen.
 

Bamboo

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The correct way to do this as an ISTP is to test them and see how they respond. The goal is to see how they respond not what you got them to do. The second you take the latter thought it turns from observation to "manipulation". Once you begin to manipulate you steer the person away from what they want into what you want. Unless your wants are the same, you are setting them up to be unhappy.

Exceptions to be made in the cases where what they want isn't actually what will make them happy. Which is a tricky exception, because I'm prone to letting people do what they want. And who am I to say what will make them happy?

In situations like this, I don't really operate on feel. I use arbitrary rules to make judgements, such as "try to get him to do this, if it doesn't work by the third time, than drop it."
 

sculpting

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Quite a few intuitives I've talked to claimed that an analytical thought process is strictly an intuitive thing and that sensors don't really do it. I've also been told that sensors can't be manipulative because we don't have the right kind of mind to process information and figure people out, again claiming it's an intuitive thing. Whenever I bring it up a little disagreement chimes up from the intuitives in the room.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Sigh.

Utterly correct. Ti seems to be the defining element of analytical thought. My ISTP ex was exceptional analytically. However he chose overt dominance or ignoring the other person's requests rather than attempt to manipulate them. He's kinda lazy like that. Ti also had to be of immediate, practical interest.

All of the ESTPs I work with are also highly analytical. They want to see data-typically sales numbers and are superb and lightening fast at analysis. However most are so Se based, they can miss the big picture. They are profoundly manipulative. I can "feel" it though.

Maybe these ESTPs are weird-but they all keep lying. Three are "close friends" yet lie about each other, and to each other, and to me, all the time. They admit freely they lie and then seem confused when I catch them lying to me. They assume others "will just figure it out" and react accordingly to the lie that everyone knows is a lie. They also talk trash about each other and harshly criticize each other to me in one on one convos, yet claim to be "close".

I distanced myself from them as I cant understand them. I care for them, but I cant figure out what to believe anymore-meaning I follow the default of believe nothing they say.
 
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