[ISFP] Help with my ISFP son and school!

[Walking Tourist]

School can be very tedious and frustrating for those of us who are SPs. I never wanted to tell my parents how tedious and frustrating and just plain boring school was because I didn't want to hurt their feelings. I would just go to school and sit there and look longingly out the window and not pay a whole lot of attention to the teacher, whom I couldn't understand anyway because I couldn't tune out any of the background noise, even the hum of the electricity (I have an auditory processing problem but that was undiagnosed until I was in my 30s). I liked art and music the best and could hardly wait to draw and paint and sing but we didn't do that anywhere enough in school..
It was very stressful to experience that, day after day. I couldn't see an end to that tedium. Sometimes, I would go home and just start to cry. My mom asked me what was wrong, and I didn't have the words to tell her.
When I was in ninth grade, I had a great history teacher. We were supposed to study China and India. The teacher gave us novels to read instead of textbooks. The novels made China and India feel real to me. I really liked the story telling and I was fascinated by the differentness of the Chinese and Indian cultures.
An inspiring teacher can do wonders for students.
I hope that your son is blessed with an inspiring teacher, who can connect with him in the way that my ninth grade history teacher connected with me.
Best of luck to you and your son.
me

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

there are alternatives for education now, and it's not so taboo to get your GED. i think forcing kids to be in school all day all their lives is, seriously, a travesty and a waste. he is probably completely burned out from going so long as it is. running start is a great option too, but that's mainly for those who want to go to college, and it sounds like he doesn't. anyway, if he's dependable and responsible, there is always the homeschooling route, which would allow him to have a lot more freedom during his day, because doing the basics like math, english, science, history, etc. enough to pass his GED at 16, or whenever you take it, doesn't take 8 hours out of your day like in 'real' school, more like 4, and is a viable option. i wouldn't recommend it unless he likes his alone time, and can study independently. but i am serious when i say he can get a decent to great education at home with some really good books and references, and an occasional tutor if needed. just 2 more years, then he can pass the GED or opt to take some runnng start classes. he hasn't lost anything, but gained a damn lot of time for his artistic pursuits. he might appreciate the extra time for his own endeavors so much that he is more motivated in his studies, and actually enjoys learning!! homeschool books can exist of anything. there are so many fabulous history and science books out there, even if english and math are pretty much the same.

EDIT: i have homeschooled all my kids always. and they are pretty hip and smart. my son is 16. he (and his other homeschooled friends) all are really smart but have spent, oh, maybe 3+ hours per day in school only (on average) for 9th and 10th grades. he is now in running start at the local junior college and loves it, i think more than he would going to high school all day. he's with students with an average age of 20+ and feels very comfortable among them.

 

[Prototype]

My 14 year ISFP (Wyatt) starts high school this year. I REALLY need the help of SP's on helping motivate him in school, help him CARE about school and proper "consequences" when he isn't holding up his responsibilities!

He sees no need for school. Last year, 8th grade was pure hell. He has his own band formed and he is great with music. However, he's not interested in ANY programs at school with regard to music. Thankfully, we've been able to get him some electives like Art and Digital Photography (he's won awards for art and is a great photographer) to mix in with the rest of the classes or I think it would be all out war. He says he is planning to drop out when he's 16because he's going to make it big in music. We have of course talked until we're blue in the face on having a back-up plan until he "makes it big" (because if you don't agree exactly with him on him making it in music...he accuses you of not supporting him.) He is a bright kid and a great kid. I know that ISFPs don't love school and crave freedom. We've told him that he can hang with his band and whatever, as long as he keeps his grades up. The last semester of school last year, he pretty much spent at home because he was failing his classes. I had meetings with the teachers and principal (who were wonderful and very supportive) and we did as much as we could. I am so worried about him this year! He was really terrible at getting up in the morning last year too...at one point, I was just about ready to dump a bowl of icewater on his head (I literally had it suspended over his head) before he would get up. The only thing different this year is that he has a "girlfriend" who is in AP classes. She is a good influence on him and wants him there every day on time, so she can see him. But, I don't know how long that will last.

I don't know how to make him care. We would be more than happy to help him get into an Art School after high school or pursue photography. You can't get even get a job at McDonald's these days without graduating! He is so stubborn and just won't listen. I guess I thought I would ask other SP's for advice on how to help him and what to do. What motivates you? Is school/education something that is valuable to you? How do we help you value education?

As an ISFJ, I was always a model student. I was internally motivated and got excellent grades. Nobody ever had to remind me to do ANYTHING. Even now as I'm finishing college and juggling work and school and kids...teachers love me and my GPA is 3.5. I WANT to relate to him, but have a really hard time. I end up just wanting to bash my head against the wall!

Thanks for any and all advice!

I'm-not-an-SP,-but-I-can-still-relate.

...I-doubt-he's-not-listening-to-you,-and-I'm-sure-he's-hearing-every-word-you-say!


What-instrument-does-he-play?

Is-he-self-taught?...-That-might-be-why-he-isn't-interested-in-any-music-programs..-I-found-music-instruction-to-be-quite-monotonous...I-already-knew-the-basics...Try-to-get-him-interested-in-music-theory!

Teenage-pipe-dreams,...-Mine-was-a-very-similar-scenario,-and-let-me-just-say,-it-ended-with-reality-slapping-me-in-the-face...-I-didn't-have-very-understanding-parents..Lol

A-band-is-hard-work,-it's-really-competitive,-exhausting,-and-if-you're-not-in-the-right-scene,-you-get-weeded-out,...Quickly!.

The-ice-water!...It'll-just-piss-him-off!

 

[Prototype]

And-as-for-the-dropping-out-of-school-part,-John-Lennon-thought-it-was-a-good-idea!

 

[Lambchop]

I'm-not-an-SP,-but-I-can-still-relate.

...I-doubt-he's-not-listening-to-you,-and-I'm-sure-he's-hearing-every-word-you-say!


What-instrument-does-he-play?

Is-he-self-taught?...-That-might-be-why-he-isn't-interested-in-any-music-programs..-I-found-music-instruction-to-be-quite-monotonous...I-already-knew-the-basics...Try-to-get-him-interested-in-music-theory!

Teenage-pipe-dreams,...-Mine-was-a-very-similar-scenario,-and-let-me-just-say,-it-ended-with-reality-slapping-me-in-the-face...

A-band-is-hard-work,-it's-really-competitive,-exhausting,-and-if-you're-not-in-the-right-scene,-you-get-weeded-out,...Quickly!.

The-ice-water!...It'll-just-piss-him-off,-trust-me!

Aphrodite Gone Awry, there is no way I could home school him. The thought has crossed my mind before and he has actually mentioned it as well though. We are barely making it on a 2 income household, I can't imagine struggling with just one. I have no prejudices against home schooled kids, we just can't afford it. I am feeling really bad, because he did just completely shut down last year and I didn't know what to do! I took him to a counselor, but he didn't really talk to her...and she was using the same approach that I was. I took him to the doctor and they thought he might be depressed, so they put him on anti-depressants. I tried so hard to get "in" and I couldn't. I realized it was my approach. So, I stopped pushing. I told him that he was responsible for his grades and put things more in his hands. He still had to regularly visit with the principal and counselor and sometimes had detention, but things got better at home. I have to tell you that reading all of this has almost made me have a new appreciation for him. I found myself at work today...thinking of him and then calling his cell phone to tell him that I was glad he had a plan for his life with his music. He said "Uhh...thanks, Mom. I'm in the middle of practicing with the band, so I gotta go. Bye-bye!" and I laughed a little. I remember one of his teachers in junior high went to a mini-concert that his band was playing at a local coffee shop and he really appreciated it and worked harder for her than the others. I think this year at conferences, I will discuss different teaching styles and let them know all the things I've been told on here.

Prototype, this is probably an SJ thing...but why are there dashes between all of your words?

He plays guitar and yes, he is self taught. He went from playing Guitar Hero 24/7 to picking up a guitar and starting to play it perfectly. I know that's why he's not interested in music programs.

I know what you mean about it being hard to make it in the music industry...hence, my over need to help him prepare for possible alternatives. It is true that he can always go back and get his GED...and it's more PC now to have one. But, I stopped at the gas station the other day on the way to work and saw a help wanted sign and it said "high school graduate." I'm sure they would also take a GED, but employers aren't hiring drop outs really anymore. I always ask what he will do to feed himself while his music takes off and he says he doesn't have a problem working at McDonald's while it does...(although I think he will find that he hates it after awhile), but he may not even be able to do that without a diploma or GED.

I guess I question the posters who say that he'll love the freedom as an adult. You are "free", but you have responsibilities that take the place of the freedom. Like bills and rent and food and car insurance and all of the other things that "free" adults have to deal with. Sure, I can choose whether or not to go to college, but I'm not just free to do whatever I want to. Although honestly...it's hard for me to relate to freedom. I became a mom at 16 and have been one ever since. I never really had "freedom" for all intensive purposes...so maybe I'm not relating correctly.

So, if he drops out at 16 -- if he's not going to school, then I would expect him to contribute towards his living expenses at home. He would have to get a job and pay, like my older son does. When my older son goes back to being a full time college student, I cut him slack because he's in school.

I don't know....I just want to do what's best for my son and help him succeed and be happy in life.

 

[Quinlan]

So, if he drops out at 16 -- if he's not going to school, then I would expect him to contribute towards his living expenses at home. He would have to get a job and pay, like my older son does. When my older son goes back to being a full time college student, I cut him slack because he's in school.

Absolutely, he will understand and respond to that too as there are immediate tangible consequneces of that.

I don't know....I just want to do what's best for my son and help him succeed and be happy in life.

You seem to be doing pretty well so far, I'm glad you want the best for him, just keep in mind that ISFJ and ISFP can be superficially similar but they are actually fundamentally different and what he defines as success and happiness is likely to be very different from what would bring you happiness (he will probably value personal expression over financial security for example).

 

[Lambchop]

ISFJ and ISFP can be superficially similar but they are actually fundamentally different and what you define success and happiness as is likely to be very different from what would bring you happiness (he will probably value personal expression over financial security for example).

Quinlan, thank you so much for pointing this out! You give excellent ISFP advice! Understanding that he values personal expression over other things helps a lot!

 

[Giggly]

I always ask what he will do to feed himself while his music takes off and he says he doesn't have a problem working at McDonald's while it does...(although I think he will find that he hates it after awhile), but he may not even be able to do that without a diploma or GED.

Uh, does he not think that working at McDonald's would be taking away time from his music too?

 

[ilovetrannies]

I meant to try and convince him to graduate and pass his classes the best that he can. Quitting would be much worse. I almost did. But thankfully, I didn't. I meant the freedom of an adult being worth the wait is that for some people having a job is much more satisfying, even if it sucks, than being in school.

I'd rather be paid to be at a crappy job, than go through the hell that was high school. People grow up is what I'm saying.

And I don't have freedom that I want. Oh, how I wish I could.

 

[Giggly]

*facepalm*

 

[Prototype]

...Prototype, this is probably an SJ thing...but why are there dashes between all of your words?

No-space-bar!

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

i know you are divorced. who is the other income? are you remarried? i in no way meant to tell you to quit your job to homeschool. i meant he could homeschool himself, if he is responsible enough and independent enough. and if he hasn't shown very much independene or responsibility, perhaps he would if he were given the opportunity. kids much younger with single parent households homeschool very successfully! kids don't need to be taught by a person necessarily, although sometimes it takes a person to clarify an idea or help over a rough patch, like in math. but mostly a kid can learn things from books or the internet. mine have. very successfully. i don't stand up and teach or lecture my kids during school. they use their workbooks and pretty much teach themselves, just as you learn what you need to learn on your own.

check out john holt, a youth rights pioneer and early homeschool advocate to see that you really could do it, and it is a viable option for your son:

John Holt (educator) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you sound like an awesome mom, btw!

 

[Dali]

A few weeks back, I was helping my mother 'spring-clean' when I came across a school report form from when I was in the 6th grade. The comments from the (unhealthy ESxJ) class teacher and (ESTJ) headmistress were (verbatim) "He's a boy who is capable of far much better work but too carefree to get down to serious revision. Please be yourself.... He can be bright but he doesn't love his work at all... very friendly and outgoing.... X is capable of being in the top 5 of the class. He only requires keenness, seriousness and determination... X is capable but not serious with his work..." (It's a long end-year report. I'll scan and put it on my blog someday. I imagine that's what quite a few ISFP reports looks like.)

Anyway, my point is, I hated school (and, most of the time, my grades reflected that). My parents, an ISFJ and an ESTP who believed one's prowess in school was the measure of a man, REFUSED to understand me and I was yelled at and spanked incessantly and generally made to feel like crap. This continued all the way till university when I got to study something I loved rather than whatever 'irrelevant syllabus' I was 'supposed' to soak in and now, I have a decent job and I'm, admittedly, good at what I do. My father, who had no qualms letting me know that he considered me a failure, now gives me his grudging respect.

I must say I respect you for wanting to understand your son. I understand that you've discussed this severally with him. Does he have a 'cool' uncle or older person whom he admires? If so, you might want to get them to speak to him and get him to understand the merits (few though they may be ) of organised education and how it will help him attain his goal in the future. Do some research and get a list of various contemporary music universities (e.g. Berkelee) with distinguished alumni and get them to explain to him that he'll hone his craft, get even better and, consequently, have a better chance of succeeding once he goes through those channels. Nonetheless, first, he'll have to do well in high school to get there. Works even better if some of his music idols are among those degree-holders.

All the best, Lambchop. I can only imagine how hard it must be to be a parent and not understand why your son would, in your eyes, 'self-destruct'.

As for getting 'in' with your son, I'll email you shortly with some tips based on my experiences with my ISFJ mother.

 

[Quinlan]

My favourite report comment was something like this; "excelling despite his constant attempts to be mediocre".

I still don't know what it means.

It seems pretty unanimous that school sucks for SPs, our education systems have so much room for improvement.

 

[Lambchop]

i know you are divorced. who is the other income? are you remarried? i in no way meant to tell you to quit your job to homeschool. i meant he could homeschool himself, if he is responsible enough and independent enough. and if he hasn't shown very much independene or responsibility, perhaps he would if he were given the opportunity. kids much younger with single parent households homeschool very successfully! kids don't need to be taught by a person necessarily, although sometimes it takes a person to clarify an idea or help over a rough patch, like in math. but mostly a kid can learn things from books or the internet. mine have. very successfully. i don't stand up and teach or lecture my kids during school. they use their workbooks and pretty much teach themselves, just as you learn what you need to learn on your own.

check out john holt, a youth rights pioneer and early homeschool advocate to see that you really could do it, and it is a viable option for your son:

John Holt (educator) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you sound like an awesome mom, btw!

Thank you for the compliment...I do tend to get down on myself a lot for not parenting "in the right way." I am remarried, I just got remarried in June. He is an INFP and doesn't place a whole lot of value on school either. He did go through 3 years at a very good college though...and would have graduated if his mom hadn't died at the time. However, although he values "freedom"...it is in a very different way than my son.

I will check out the resources you sent me. The concept of the kids teaching themselves is interesting. Although he is responsible, I think he lacks the self discipline to do it himself. Also, what would he be doing during the day when other kids are in school and myself and my husband are at work? I guess that thought worries me. Even if I thought of being a teacher when I was younger, I would NEVER have the patience to help him. I would love to say that I do...but I would end up frustrated with him and make it worse. For example, he's good with math and science and I had to take a remedial math class in college because I'm so terrible with it. Me trying to help him with math is a joke in more ways than one!

I really appreciate your comments though...you have given me much to think about!

 

[Lambchop]

A few weeks back, I was helping my mother 'spring-clean' when I came across a school report form from when I was in the 6th grade. The comments from the (unhealthy ESxJ) class teacher and (ESTJ) headmistress were (verbatim) "He's a boy who is capable of far much better work but too carefree to get down to serious revision. Please be yourself.... He can be bright but he doesn't love his work at all... very friendly and outgoing.... X is capable of being in the top 5 of the class. He only requires keenness, seriousness and determination... X is capable but not serious with his work..." (It's a long end-year report. I'll scan and put it on my blog someday. I imagine that's what quite a few ISFP reports looks like.)

Anyway, my point is, I hated school (and, most of the time, my grades reflected that). My parents, an ISFJ and an ESTP who believed one's prowess in school was the measure of a man, REFUSED to understand me and I was yelled at and spanked incessantly and generally made to feel like crap. This continued all the way till university when I got to study something I loved rather than whatever 'irrelevant syllabus' I was 'supposed' to soak in and now, I have a decent job and I'm, admittedly, good at what I do. My father, who had no qualms letting me know that he considered me a failure, now gives me his grudging respect.

I must say I respect you for wanting to understand your son. I understand that you've discussed this severally with him. Does he have a 'cool' uncle or older person whom he admires? If so, you might want to get them to speak to him and get him to understand the merits (few though they may be ) of organised education and how it will help him attain his goal in the future. Do some research and get a list of various contemporary music universities (e.g. Berkelee) with distinguished alumni and get them to explain to him that he'll hone his craft, get even better and, consequently, have a better chance of succeeding once he goes through those channels. Nonetheless, first, he'll have to do well in high school to get there. Works even better if some of his music idols are among those degree-holders.

All the best, Lambchop. I can only imagine how hard it must be to be a parent and not understand why your son would, in your eyes, 'self-destruct'.

As for getting 'in' with your son, I'll email you shortly with some tips based on my experiences with my ISFJ mother.

Mo, this info is so great! All of my son's report cards sound like yours!! What a great idea on seeing if he has a degree holding music idol...I will have my INFP husband do some research into this.

With regard to the "cool" older person to admire -- over Spring Break this year, I had him "shadow" an aquaintance of mine (he is around 26 I think) who owns his own photography studio and went to an Arts school named Kendell. He really liked him and they took some pictures together, etc. However, I don't know him well enough to ask if my kid can hang out with him on a regular basis and Wyatt leans more towards the music side than the art side, although he likes both! I live in a pretty conservative area where he kind of sticks out already (we moved from Seattle to the midwest -- culture shock!). My husband has talked to him some and my son listens to my husband and likes him...but it doesn't really affect him. I will have to do more research into some local bands maybe, as well.

I would LOVE to hear whatever your ISFJ mom wants to share! Or whatever you want to share about relating to your ISFJ mom. Your own insights are awesome as well, of course.

I was going through some of my reports a few minutes ago, out of curosity. I found a few things that say "While doing a great job at succeeding, Lambchop puts a lot of pressure on herself. I'm not sure who she's trying to impress."

 

[Lambchop]

My favourite report comment was something like this; "excelling despite his constant attempts to be mediocre".

HAHAHA, this is funny....ohhh...poor you!

 

[Quinlan]

I was going through some of my reports a few minutes ago, out of curosity. I found a few things that say "While doing a great job at succeeding, Lambchop puts a lot of pressure on herself. I'm not sure who she's trying to impress."

Ouch!

 

[Oso Mocoso]

I guess I question the posters who say that he'll love the freedom as an adult. You are "free", but you have responsibilities that take the place of the freedom. Like bills and rent and food and car insurance and all of the other things that "free" adults have to deal with. Sure, I can choose whether or not to go to college, but I'm not just free to do whatever I want to. Although honestly...it's hard for me to relate to freedom. I became a mom at 16 and have been one ever since. I never really had "freedom" for all intensive purposes...so maybe I'm not relating correctly.

So, if he drops out at 16 -- if he's not going to school, then I would expect him to contribute towards his living expenses at home. He would have to get a job and pay, like my older son does. When my older son goes back to being a full time college student, I cut him slack because he's in school.

I don't know....I just want to do what's best for my son and help him succeed and be happy in life.

Oh jeez ... the care and feeding of an ISFP. I don't have a lot of success to speak of in this regard, but I'll share with you my experiences. When I was going to school on my first day of Kindergarten, an ISFP decided spontaneously that we were friends. A few weeks later, I was being bullied on my school bus and he leaped to my defense shouting "You stay away from my best friend!" and I decided not to argue with him. We were still best friends when we went to different colleges, and once we lived in different states we didn't do well at staying in touch.

In college, I went through different roommates at a fast rate until I ended up with ... another ISFP. We clicked pretty well, and I stuck with him for the rest of the year. He didn't get along with my ENTP girlfriend, and he got his own place the next year but we remained close for the rest of college. He had problems with drug abuse and I ended up (I'm ashamed to admit) kind of enabling him. For example if he ended up getting high somewhere and needing a ride, I'd usually provide one without judging him too much. In retrospect, he might have been better off if I'd said something. When I was driving him around, his drug use wasn't disrupting his life really, but later on after he graduated it kind of got out of control for a while.

Post graduation ... who did I end up dating? An ISFP. Much like with my childhood friend, at one point she just sort of announced to me that she was my girlfriend. Since we were both naked at the time, I didn't argue with her. Over a decade later, we're still together and married now.

My experience with ISFPs is that trying to do any kind of strict disciplinarian thing with them COMPLETELY doesn't work. They immediately rebel and resent the hell out of you. You can bargain with them, but for the most part they're going to want to do what they want. In terms of influencing them, I've found that simply letting them know they're appreciated goes a long way. For example, if I was trying to get my boyhood friend to do something or if I'm trying to get my wife to do something, a good way of influencing them is just to say "You know? When you did X for me, I really appreciated it a lot. Thank you very much." Then, you continue buttering them up. My wife sometimes complains that (in her words) I am flattering her, but she clearly enjoys being praised. The way I see it, as long as what I tell her is heartfelt and true, there's no dishonesty in telling her what I think if it makes her feel good.

Now ... that being said, my wife and I started dating when she was in art school and I tried to get her to pursue a more ambitious career once she got out. That didn't happen. She's content to work an entry level job and work on her artwork in her spare time when she's not playing video games or something. So ... I pay nearly all of our bills. Good luck with your ISFP.

 

[sunshinebrighter]

Have you thought about having him taking a year off from school?

He is 14. It is natural to go through a rebellious stage right now. His view of the world is limited. He doesn't understand his chances of making it in the music world.

I suggest him getting a job for one year. Have him travel the country. Try to show him the world outside of high school. Concentrate on teaching him PRACTICAL things that he can see using in his everyday life. Meet bands on the road and see how so many with talent don't make it.

I wish I took a year off and try to figure out what the real world was like.