[Se] Se in the eyes of Si

[Feline]

Hi, do Si users understand what Se is? I know some Se users struggle to imagine what Si is and wonder if it goes both ways. I imagine this question for Si-dominants.

 

[Habba]

I think I know what Se is, but I fail to see why people feel it's the greatest thing on earth, e.g. why they have it as their primary function.

 

[OrderOfTheCaelifera]

Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail.

We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result.
We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context.
An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention.
Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment.
A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us.
The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.


I don't know whether I'd recognize that an individual is an Se dom type, except maybe for Earthy women?

 

[Cimarron]

I think I have a "feel" for what it is, but it's kind of hard to put into words without sounding...formulaic and textbook-ish, or in other words, hard to relate to it.

 

[Showbread]

It pretty much escapes me completely. I didn't grow up with any dominant or tertiary Se users. My family is all Te, Ne, Ni. I think I just associate it with people jumping off cliffs.

 

[EJCC]

I have no freaking clue. I guess the feeling of being "in the zone" when you're making art, playing a sport, lifting weights, etc, would be Se? Generally I agree with [MENTION=4883]Cimarron[/MENTION] that I can try to summarize it, but it ends up sounding textbook. The thought process ends up being "I guess they do this thing... but doesn't everyone do that?" e.g. doesn't everyone get "in the zone"?

I'd probably understand it if I had more SPs in my life, but I've got one ISTP friend and that's it.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Se is the most zen of all the functions.

 

[Thalassa]

My ISTP friend was showing me some basic fight stuff last night (because these are the dumb things people do half naked on concrete floors tipsy around midnight???) But anyway he said I was getting one thing better than most people he showed but I wasn't grounding myself and protecting my head, and I thought about the awareness it requires to ground your self in yoga as a reference, but I had kind of thought of that as Si because it's so subtle ...so he showed me old fights with Mike Tyson who is clearly (or was clearly) some kind of genius at boxing even though he seems retarded in every other way, it was visible even to me the solidity of his body and his presence. Like he doesn't think about anything, he just IS. He's physically just right there, fully engaged, not in his head. That's Se.

But it's faulty to always correlate Se with things like sports. In Socionics Se types are sexually aggressive people highly aware of socio-cultural dynamics in a pragmatic rather than "correct" way like the socio-cultural awareness of Fe. People aware of how best to manipulate real space who can even come across as overbearing in some cases.

Jungs Se dom is the ultimate realist, or thinks of himself as such (all perception is irrational so this is not entirely true) who has his or her own morality in enjoying the pleasures of life and sharing them, living life to the full, grabbing it and smelling, touching tasting seeing hearing EXPERIENCING it, and any ascetic denial of this would be seen as amoral ingratitude to the Se type,who can range from fine artist to idiot thrill seeker based on intelligence and maturity.

P.s. I.only realized later you were asking for SJ perception. I was just running down different explanation, sorry.

 

[Thalassa]

Se is the most zen of all the functions.

I'd argue that zen is a combination of Se and mature Ni. Like how they teach you to just be your body in yoga, but then advanced yogis take it beyond that and cling simply to the internal focus that some can go without eating or drinking in a small dark hole for up to three days just by regulating their breathing. To me that's FUCKING CRAZY like why just why, but it's so they can maintain internal calm in literally any situation.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I'd argue that zen is a combination of Se and mature Ni. Like how they teach you to just be your body in yoga, but then advanced yogis take it beyond that and cling simply to the internal focus that some can go without eating or drinking in a small dark hole for up to three days just by regulating their breathing. To me that's FUCKING CRAZY like why just why, but it's so they can maintain internal calm in literally any situation.

Agree. I used to meditate and although I never reached that level, I think it helped me develop Ni better.

 

[EJCC]

Se?

 

[olias]

I have no freaking clue. I guess the feeling of being "in the zone" when you're making art, playing a sport, lifting weights, etc, would be Se? Generally I agree with [MENTION=4883]Cimarron[/MENTION] that I can try to summarize it, but it ends up sounding textbook. The thought process ends up being "I guess they do this thing... but doesn't everyone do that?" e.g. doesn't everyone get "in the zone"?

I'd probably understand it if I had more SPs in my life, but I've got one ISTP friend and that's it.

I would suggest that if you want to understand how a given function feels for a certain type, try to look at you feel when you exercise a function in the same position. The way that function makes you feel is probably similar to how the mysterious function makes the other person feel.

Dominant Se feels as good to a Se dom type as Dominant Te feels to an ESTJ. You know how good you feel when you're kicking butt, taking names, and just generally making shit happen? When you KNOW you're working hard and really making head way? That sense of euphoria and good feeling and "all is right with the universe" is what a Se dom feels.

Conversely, do you know how sort of icky and dirty and unworthy you feel after a seriously ugly outburst of emotion? One where you were loud, aggressive, attacking, nasty, histrionic and unfair? That's the way an inferior function Se feels after a particularly strong bout with being in the grip of inferior Se.

 

[Evo]

I asked my ISFJ friend this past weekend what Se seemed like to him. He said that it is almost like it goes by too fast.

It sort of reminded me how Fe is too fast for Fi.

The extroverted functions are all in the moment. Which seem to be going by too fast for the introverted functions to reflect on or to even grasp with any real depth.

 

[KellBell]

I'd argue that zen is a combination of Se and mature Ni. Like how they teach you to just be your body in yoga, but then advanced yogis take it beyond that and cling simply to the internal focus that some can go without eating or drinking in a small dark hole for up to three days just by regulating their breathing. To me that's FUCKING CRAZY like why just why, but it's so they can maintain internal calm in literally any situation.

As an INFJ I honestly have wondered what Si is like for the longest time, and wondered if strong Si is more zen because it's subjective sensing and focuses on going inside of your body... I can go inside my own mind and I can exist in my physical environment but I am not able to properly gauge my internal state of affairs very well...

 

[KellBell]

I would suggest that if you want to understand how a given function feels for a certain type, try to look at you feel when you exercise a function in the same position. The way that function makes you feel is probably similar to how the mysterious function makes the other person feel.

Dominant Se feels as good to a Se dom type as Dominant Te feels to an ESTJ. You know how good you feel when you're kicking butt, taking names, and just generally making shit happen? When you KNOW you're working hard and really making head way? That sense of euphoria and good feeling and "all is right with the universe" is what a Se dom feels.

Conversely, do you know how sort of icky and dirty and unworthy you feel after a seriously ugly outburst of emotion? One where you were loud, aggressive, attacking, nasty, histrionic and unfair? That's the way an inferior function Se feels after a particularly strong bout with being in the grip of inferior Se.

Wait I want to better understand what you just said, so we as inferior Se users experience Se differently? I want to know more about this lol

 

[olias]

I asked my ISFJ friend this past weekend what Se seemed like to him. He said that it is almost like it goes by too fast.

It sort of reminded me how Fe is too fast for Fi.

The extroverted functions are all in the moment. Which seem to be going by too fast for the introverted functions to reflect on or to even grasp with any real depth.

Funny you phrase it that way! I stumbled across this really clever visualization of how time is experienced by the four preferences.

Mental Functions and Time Perception

 

[olias]

Wait I want to better understand what you just said, so we as inferior Se users experience Se differently? I want to know more about this lol

I'm not sure who "we" are. I'm going to assume you mean you and I, as in INTJ and INFJ. And I would argue that yes, you and I *as individuals* experience inferior Se differently, but there will be themes of our experiences that that we'll be able to recognize. Differences in gender, upbringing, and current environment will also impact how we experience inferior Se in the moment.

There's no question, however, that you and I experience Se in a very different way than an ESTJ does. For ESTJ's it's expressed through the 6th function. The end result is that it predominantly results in lots of self-criticism and self-recriminations over minor offenses, generally related to their bodies (think females who honestly hate how "fat" they are, even though they're quite thin, or guys who beat themselves up for not being strong enough). OR they attack other people's physicality with the same fervor they attack themselves. OR, if they're really having a bad day, they run around accusing everyone else of being shallow and overly focused on looks (projection). Very different than the NTJ who just gets off on feeling things.

Remember, for all types the inferior function can be ecstatic, nourishing, energizing, recharging. Almost religious in it's purity and just how "right" it feels. For me, it's the dominant way I experience the transcendence of sexual intimacy with someone I love

Inferior Se can also be experienced as binging, emotional avoidance, psychic shut down, destructive physical behaviors, impulsiveness, and all sort of other self destructive behaviors. Think "waking up in the gutter in a strange town smelling of piss and covered in blood, and muttering "Oh no, not again . . ." The experience of inferior functions depends on 1) how individuated the person is, and 2) what was the precipitating event that cause the person the put their Dom function down and switch to their inferior.

The INSANE anger, paranoia, hyper criticality and hyper sensitivity to criticism that sometimes pops up in an ESTJ is their inferior Fi. The really warm, sincere, nurturing affection ESTJ's can pair with their loyalty is their inferior Fi coupled with aux Si.

 

[olias]

As an INFJ I honestly have wondered what Si is like for the longest time, and wondered if strong Si is more zen because it's subjective sensing and focuses on going inside of your body... I can go inside my own mind and I can exist in my physical environment but I am not able to properly gauge my internal state of affairs very well...

I'll take you all one step further . . . zen is the result of a well balanced, individuated, smoothly functioning stack. Doesn't matter what the type happens to be. Zen is about being balanced, not being impassive or stoic, or even particularly meditative.

Si, I think, is easy. Think of Si as really, really, REALLY strongly felt hunches or gut feelings about things (as dom or aux). It's a huge capacity to remember things with a level of detail you and I cannot imagine. It's loyalty, integrity, and a very solid inner moral compass. Si is being so in tune with how your body feels that you know something's wrong long before any symptoms start showing overtly. Si is also stubborness, closed mindedness, bigoted attitudes, jumping to conclusions, and generally acting like a bull in a china shop ALL THE TIME. Si is having nothing but a hammer and treating the whole world like a nail, and still thinking you're right for doing it.

Demonic Si (which you and I have) . . . I'm not sure. I know when I feel very hurt or betrayed, I have a habit I have to fight against. I find myself constantly nursing fantasies of revenge and retribution against whoever it is I felt betrayed me. They are convincing, they are nasty, they are graphic, and I don't feel good about it. Si allows a person to obsess over past wounds, and to experience the hurt of that past wound like it had just happened mere seconds ago. In the 8th function, combined with 7th function Fi, it makes the INTJ absolutely certain that they're not just resentful and vengeful, but justified in feeling that way as well as being on the side of light and goodness. Maybe even that everyone will cheer if I took that revenge I've been day dreaming about.

For an INFJ, 7th Te/8th Si is the viseral, raw, intense, bodily experience of negative memories coupled with the belief that if you really wanted to, you could totally ruin that person. And by god, you're actually going to do it this time. So you take your tertiary Ti, go charging into some public space, full of self righteous vigor, and proceed to absolutely make a fool of yourself. (Just a guess).

 

[EJCC]

Si, I think, is easy. Think of Si as really, really, REALLY strongly felt hunches or gut feelings about things (as dom or aux). It's a huge capacity to remember things with a level of detail you and I cannot imagine. It's loyalty, integrity, and a very solid inner moral compass. Si is being so in tune with how your body feels that you know something's wrong long before any symptoms start showing overtly. Si is also stubborness, closed mindedness, bigoted attitudes, jumping to conclusions, and generally acting like a bull in a china shop ALL THE TIME. Si is having nothing but a hammer and treating the whole world like a nail, and still thinking you're right for doing it.

This description is misleading and almost entirely incorrect.

Si is not really physical. I would never say that Si means being in tune with your body. Si is only "physical" in the sense that it is based on sensory memory, and not on intuition and connecting dots (the dot-connecting is Ne). Sometimes it is like a gut feeling, but it's a gut feeling based on prior experience -- you may not remember that experience right away, but that precedent is constantly being referenced. The experience could have happened to someone else, in which case the experience is only sensory because you heard (with your ears) or read (with your eyes) someone discussing it.

Si is like being chained to an encyclopedia, or a filing cabinet full of documents. Before you can act on anything, or come to any conclusions, you have to reference those documents. All of your internal definitions are based on those documents. If one of them is rendered invalid, you have to put a replacement document into the same slot. Every single event that has ever happened to you, that you've ever read about, that ever registered with you in passing, is present in those documents -- and you may not even realize that you're referencing them, when you're referencing them. Only sometimes will an Si-user consciously think "What did others do in this situation, that I can learn from?" The rest of the time, it may, as you said, be a "gut feeling" -- thinking "that's unusual", because you've never seen anything done like that before, but not consciously going through every contrasting experience before thinking that.

The hammer is Te or Fe, not Si. Si is not about action. Si is about collecting and referencing data. Your "bull in a china shop" metaphor is much more about extroverted functions being backed by Si, than it is about Si itself.

Here's my favorite explanation of Si (in contrast with Ni):

[quote="The Introverted Sensation Function (Si) and Misconceptions", from Personality Cafe]The Introverted Sensation function can be explained more clearly with a scenario, such as making a particular sandwich. This sandwich is composed of mustard, mayo, lettuce, tomato, swiss, and ham.

Let’s say we have an Si user who is standing in the kitchen with the recipe and ingredients for this sandwich at a table. This will be the first time the Si user will ever make a sandwich or even seen a sandwich and thus his mind’s slate is clean. The Si user will read through the recipe and attempt to follow the instructions one by one to construct this sandwhich.

First, it tells him to use mustard and mayo on one side of each bread slices. Then it tells him to place lettuce, tomato, swiss, and finally ham in that exact order on top of one slice of bread with the condiment side facing upward. Lastly, it tells him to top it off with the second bread slice with the condiment side facing downward. He finishes.

Now he is to make a second sandwich without the help of the recipe. The Si user’s memory ispoor, unfortunately, so he can’t remember the recipe from heart, HOWEVER, he can “feel” out the sensation as he makes it. The Si user will have a sensation that tells him, wasn’t it the bread slice first that needs to be covered with mustard and mayo? He does not need to even say this. His gut feeling will tell him that probably is the first correct approach. His gut feeling will also tell him it was probably lettuce and tomato next in that order. Now he is almost finished but he is stuck. He can’t remember the next step. He tries to put ham on, but wait!

A sudden shock in his system.

“This doesn’t feel right,” the Si user says. He decides to try another item and places the swiss on top instead. Suddenly, his body tells him “This feels right,” and finally proceeds to place the ham on the sandwich. So far, it all feels “correct”. The Si user then continues to finish the sandwich with the final bread slice.

So the Si-user I used in this example has terrible memory. He cannot remember the recipe step by step, what items go in what order, how to start, or how to finish, at least in a differentiated manner. His body, however, remembers the sensation because he did it before. The first time he makes a sandwich was his development of an internalized sensation blueprint and so the next time he makes a sandwich, he has this internal sensation to utilize as a guide.


Introverted Intuition (Ni) Comparison/Contrast


Ni users, however, do not operate in this manner. Each time an Ni-user makes a sandwich, it isALWAYS a clean slate, at least until the information is finally well processed into the Psyche’s memory. As an Ni-user, I’ve often been told, “Oh come on, you did this 100 times, can’t you remember?” and I would respond, “I’m sorry, I can’t!” I can’t feel out the steps based on previous experiences. What an Ni user can do, however, is rely on “possibility hunches” to get things done. Ni does this by intuiting based on previously learned "principles and patterns" rather than the sensational experiences that Si learns.

An Ni user does not need to use Si to get the same job done. Both functions operate in different ways, but regardless, are capable of achieving the exact same result and thus, the similarity of results between Ni and Si sprouts the confusion among many.

So for an Ni user, every time he make a sandwich, he has to rely on intuition to get the sandwich constructed, despite the lack of prior experience. He can “feel” that the bread could “possibly”have mustard and mayo on first. The Ni can visualize this and see just what the end result of the sandwich could be if he places mayo and mustard on each slice of bread. If his gut feeling believes it is correct, he will do this. His gut feeling will also visualize what item should go next. The ham? Swiss? Lettuce? Tomato? Often times, the Ni function will change its gut feeling each time the Ni-user makes a new sandwich. Because of this method, however, each time the Ni user makes a sandwich it can be different, whereas the Si user is more capable of repeating the same exact steps over and over.[/quote]

 

[OrderOfTheCaelifera]

Whoa the link didn't post with comment #3 on this thread, it should've contained the link to Se
Extraverted Sensing